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07-03-2010, 09:02 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by portal333 View Post
How many teams currently have a true franchise player that they drafted? Not being snarky, I'm genuinely curious because of the above posts.
Actually thats mostly the case, especially with forwards:

Washington - Ovechkin, Backstrom
Tampa - Lecavalier, Stamkos
San Jose - Marleau
Pittsburgh - Crosby, Malkin
Vancouver - the Sedins
Chicago - Kane, Toews
NJ - Parise, Elias
LA - Kopitar, Doughty
Anaheim - Getzlaf, Perry
Carolina - Staal
Detroit - Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom
Ottawa - Spezza, Alfredsson
Colorado - Stastny, Duchene
Philadelphia - Richards, Carter
Columbus - Nash
Minnesota - Koivu
Nashville - Weber, Suter
Phoenix - Doan

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07-03-2010, 09:11 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by portal333 View Post
How many teams currently have a true franchise player that they drafted? Not being snarky, I'm genuinely curious because of the above posts.
List of all the Stanley Cup finalists over the past decade - Players drafted by said teams that are clearly better at that point than anyone ever drafted by the Panthers.

I did this quickly, so I know I missed some.:

Flyers - Richards / Gagne / Carter (Horton / Stewart instead )
Blackhawks - Towes / Kane / Keith
Penguins - Crosby / Malkin
Red Wings - Datsyuk / Zetterberg / Lidstrom
Ducks (07-08) - Getzlaf (Horton/Stewart instead )
Senators - Spezza / Alfredsson
Hurricanes - Staal (could have been a Panther )
Oilers - Smyth (arguable, I'll admit)
TB - LeCavalier (should have been a Panther ) / Brad Richards
Flames - Iginla
Devils - Niedermeyer / Brodeur
Ducks - Kariya
Avalanche - Sakic


Last edited by angry_treefrog: 07-03-2010 at 09:30 PM.
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07-03-2010, 11:27 PM
  #103
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Ok, so... please tell me that the next draft has a good shot of landing us a really good forward.

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07-04-2010, 12:34 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
You can't make moves to win now when your home grown players are inadequate.

The fact that Jay Bouwmeester is the best homegrown Panthers talent says volumes. He's a nice player, but no star. Despite years of sucking, the Panthers have never drafted a star player. Ever.

You can't fix that by free agency. Name one successful franchise that has built it's core with UFA signings. You want to fix it via trade? Might work, if the Panthers hadn't traded Luongo & Bouwmeester for pennies on the dollar. Had Martin looked to the future (or been allowed to), Bouw would have been traded for future assets and the team would be a lot better off now. Had Luongo been traded for future assets instead of a broken big name player and two mediocre veterans, the team would be a lot better off now. You see the problem is that the team has never really looked to the future. There's never been a long term plan outside of "throw the first round draft picks on the ice and hope they grow into a playoff team."

What Tallon is doing is the right thing. No Panthers GM has come in here and done this. None. In retrospect, this rebuild is a few years overdue.

I'm a STHer and it sucks to have never seen a home playoff game. I hate the losing. I hate having other teams fans come into the building mocking the team and it's fans. I also see that this team is fundamentally broken/flawed and that a complete rebuild is needed. It sucks, but it is what it is. Tallon is no "hockey god", but he has a great reputation league-wide, he has a plan and he is sticking to it. That's worth more to me than a Pete DeBoer playoff guarantee.
Completely agreed, ATF. When a house foundation is cracked, you don't just build a house on top of it anyway. You have to fix the foundation first before you can add on top of it. That's what Tallon's doing and it HAS to be done. You can't build a team through free agency, you simply can't. Free agency should be used to fill some holes here and there. We need to build this thing from the ground up, that's the only way this team will ever be a winner. Absolutely the only way. However many years we've missed the playoffs should have no effect on anything. We cannot be distracted from the rebuilding process, and Tallon won't, that's the great part. The good news is after this draft haul we just got we are already almost there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by portal333 View Post
Ok, so... please tell me that the next draft has a good shot of landing us a really good forward.
Actually it does, 2011 is very forward heavy at the top, with some outstanding forward prospects figuring to go in the top 20 right now. With the way the top 8-9 teams in the East are looking right now, it would probably be better for us to bomb again next season and get a stud forward. The consensus two top forwards available next year at this point are both centers-Sean Couturier and Ryan Nugent-Hopkins. Right now they are clear cut #2 and 3 behind consensus #1 d-man Adam Larsson. We get one of those two guys, plus another great draft haul like we just got, and we are set for a hell of a long time.

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07-04-2010, 12:57 AM
  #105
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Thanks! So are we cruisin' for Couturier or hoping for Hopkins? I'm ready for one more season of derp.

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07-04-2010, 03:08 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by portal333 View Post
Ok, so... please tell me that the next draft has a good shot of landing us a really good forward.
C'mon this is getting stupid already. Give the Panthers 20 games this season and then we will know where we are at with all the young players coming up and new players signed. Thinking about next years draft already is lame. Do you actually like watching hockey or are you more interested in stats and fantasy teams?

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07-04-2010, 03:16 AM
  #107
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I'm interested in my team being built to one day not only make the playoffs but also compete for the cup.

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07-04-2010, 03:21 AM
  #108
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Nice signing guys. I will tell you this though. Higgins is one of the most snakebitten players I've ever seen. He had open net after open net in NY and could NOT score. I specifically remember an OT game at the Garden where he had a wide open net, and he fanned. If he can get past last season, he's a terrific player. He excelled at everything BUT scoring. He can PK, bring energy, and hit. He can play top 6 or bottom 6. Incredibly versatile.

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07-04-2010, 06:12 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Mick View Post
C'mon this is getting stupid already. Give the Panthers 20 games this season and then we will know where we are at with all the young players coming up and new players signed. Thinking about next years draft already is lame. Do you actually like watching hockey or are you more interested in stats and fantasy teams?
What young players? Were basically going with the same team but weaker defense and offense. If you mean Repik, Dadonov I don't know if DeBoer will give them a real chance

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07-04-2010, 06:54 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Mogo View Post
What young players? Were basically going with the same team but weaker defense and offense. If you mean Repik, Dadonov I don't know if DeBoer will give them a real chance
i doubt they will ever crack the top 6 on any team in the league on a regular basis

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07-04-2010, 09:07 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post

Actually it does, 2011 is very forward heavy at the top, with some outstanding forward prospects figuring to go in the top 20 right now. With the way the top 8-9 teams in the East are looking right now, it would probably be better for us to bomb again next season and get a stud forward. The consensus two top forwards available next year at this point are both centers-Sean Couturier and Ryan Nugent-Hopkins. Right now they are clear cut #2 and 3 behind consensus #1 d-man Adam Larsson. We get one of those two guys, plus another great draft haul like we just got, and we are set for a hell of a long time.
If Couturier was in this years draft where do you think he would have gone? Before or after Seguin/Hall?

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07-04-2010, 10:26 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Boooooth10 View Post
If Couturier was in this years draft where do you think he would have gone? Before or after Seguin/Hall?
After Hall/Seguin, but it's not really fair to compare because Couturier is a year younger. He could become the best NHLer out of the three. He has that size and power element that scouts drool over when looking for big skilled centers.

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07-04-2010, 12:11 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by GaborikEqualsGod1995* View Post
Nice signing guys. I will tell you this though. Higgins is one of the most snakebitten players I've ever seen. He had open net after open net in NY and could NOT score. I specifically remember an OT game at the Garden where he had a wide open net, and he fanned. If he can get past last season, he's a terrific player. He excelled at everything BUT scoring. He can PK, bring energy, and hit. He can play top 6 or bottom 6. Incredibly versatile.
No worries. A lot of our players seemed to miss open nets last season too. And Vancouver fans say the same thing about Grabner & Bernier so we're pretty used to it. :-)

-ghoste

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07-04-2010, 12:45 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
You can't make moves to win now when your home grown players are inadequate.

The fact that Jay Bouwmeester is the best homegrown Panthers talent says volumes. He's a nice player, but no star. Despite years of sucking, the Panthers have never drafted a star player. Ever.

You can't fix that by free agency. Name one successful franchise that has built it's core with UFA signings. You want to fix it via trade? Might work, if the Panthers hadn't traded Luongo & Bouwmeester for pennies on the dollar. Had Martin looked to the future (or been allowed to), Bouw would have been traded for future assets and the team would be a lot better off now. Had Luongo been traded for future assets instead of a broken big name player and two mediocre veterans, the team would be a lot better off now. You see the problem is that the team has never really looked to the future. There's never been a long term plan outside of "throw the first round draft picks on the ice and hope they grow into a playoff team."

What Tallon is doing is the right thing. No Panthers GM has come in here and done this. None. In retrospect, this rebuild is a few years overdue.

I'm a STHer and it sucks to have never seen a home playoff game. I hate the losing. I hate having other teams fans come into the building mocking the team and it's fans. I also see that this team is fundamentally broken/flawed and that a complete rebuild is needed. It sucks, but it is what it is. Tallon is no "hockey god", but he has a great reputation league-wide, he has a plan and he is sticking to it. That's worth more to me than a Pete DeBoer playoff guarantee.
Right on !!
We all hate loosing for so long, but the attempted "rebuild" by Martin hit the wall, so you have to go back to the drawing board and put together a new plan, that is where we are right now.

Our future looks a lot brighter now, than before Tallon.

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07-04-2010, 01:34 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by portal333 View Post
Thanks! So are we cruisin' for Couturier or hoping for Hopkins? I'm ready for one more season of derp.
Losing for Larsson?

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07-04-2010, 01:40 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by RCGP View Post
Losing for Larsson?
Id love Larsson, but Couturier or Hopkins would be a better pick for this team. We have the defensive depth, but we are lacking that top line prospect. One of Couturier or Hopkins would fit perfectly. I would be quite happy if we could ice this on opening night:

Couturier - Bjugstad - Frolik
Gudbranson - Kulikov
Markstrom

I would be one happy Panther fan.

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07-04-2010, 06:46 PM
  #117
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Just in the spirit of Couturier and Nugent-Hopkins, idk if all of you guys have seen these vids yet, they became somewhat famous last year. Hilarious stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74bYu...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHv8_...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdywD...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDwrU...eature=related

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07-04-2010, 08:00 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by pb1300 View Post
Id love Larsson, but Couturier or Hopkins would be a better pick for this team. We have the defensive depth, but we are lacking that top line prospect. One of Couturier or Hopkins would fit perfectly. I would be quite happy if we could ice this on opening night:

Couturier - Bjugstad - Frolik
Gudbranson - Kulikov
Markstrom

I would be one happy Panther fan.
I agree, I was just joking around. If we land first overall I hope we can get a big package to drop down a spot and take Couturier.

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07-04-2010, 08:04 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
Just in the spirit of Couturier and Nugent-Hopkins, idk if all of you guys have seen these vids yet, they became somewhat famous last year. Hilarious stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74bYu...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHv8_...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdywD...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDwrU...eature=related
His first words on camera are "thank you". Classy guy, great character, we must have him.

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07-05-2010, 01:41 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
You can't make moves to win now when your home grown players are inadequate.

The fact that Jay Bouwmeester is the best homegrown Panthers talent says volumes. He's a nice player, but no star. Despite years of sucking, the Panthers have never drafted a star player. Ever.

You can't fix that by free agency. Name one successful franchise that has built it's core with UFA signings. You want to fix it via trade? Might work, if the Panthers hadn't traded Luongo & Bouwmeester for pennies on the dollar. Had Martin looked to the future (or been allowed to), Bouw would have been traded for future assets and the team would be a lot better off now. Had Luongo been traded for future assets instead of a broken big name player and two mediocre veterans, the team would be a lot better off now. You see the problem is that the team has never really looked to the future. There's never been a long term plan outside of "throw the first round draft picks on the ice and hope they grow into a playoff team."

What Tallon is doing is the right thing. No Panthers GM has come in here and done this. None. In retrospect, this rebuild is a few years overdue.

I'm a STHer and it sucks to have never seen a home playoff game. I hate the losing. I hate having other teams fans come into the building mocking the team and it's fans. I also see that this team is fundamentally broken/flawed and that a complete rebuild is needed. It sucks, but it is what it is. Tallon is no "hockey god", but he has a great reputation league-wide, he has a plan and he is sticking to it. That's worth more to me than a Pete DeBoer playoff guarantee.
I don't disagree with anything you wrote but the truth is that I could copy and paste your response and change the names from Tallon to Martin or Dudley and these are the same arguments many fans posted to defend the 5 year plans in the past and how did those turn out? We have never attracted a true free agent here, never. Everyone was thrilled with Stillman, missing that he merely a third line guy. Tallon even threatens that those who don't want to be here will be gone. Do you guys think that these players feel threatened? Trading them to another team is a huge favor. Horton is doing cartwheels. The only ones being punished are the fans who are forced to watch a team of third line players. I do like Tallon but I was expecting much more at this point. At the very least picking up one of the many chicago players he himself acquired. Look at what Dudley of all people did for atlanta, how nice would Buff like in a panthers uniform? I was expecting a trade for a top center, a strong free agent d man, and one of the many salary dumps for chicago, either Buff or Versteeg. And we also will have no toughness again so expect a repeat of the Booth incident.

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07-05-2010, 01:54 PM
  #121
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But Chicago got rid of Tallon so for me, it's hard to see them 'helping' him out by trading a couple of their good players to him. I don't know though.

I wanted Versteeg but I'm just not excited on Buff yet. He had a great playoffs and maybe this will be his bust out season. I'm sure he'll soon be making $4 million but I got to see what kind of production he pushes out. We'll be seeing him a lot more this season so I guess we'll find out.

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07-05-2010, 06:50 PM
  #122
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I don't disagree with anything you wrote but the truth is that I could copy and paste your response and change the names from Tallon to Martin or Dudley and these are the same arguments many fans posted to defend the 5 year plans in the past and how did those turn out? We have never attracted a true free agent here, never. Everyone was thrilled with Stillman, missing that he merely a third line guy. Tallon even threatens that those who don't want to be here will be gone. Do you guys think that these players feel threatened? Trading them to another team is a huge favor. Horton is doing cartwheels. The only ones being punished are the fans who are forced to watch a team of third line players. I do like Tallon but I was expecting much more at this point. At the very least picking up one of the many chicago players he himself acquired. Look at what Dudley of all people did for atlanta, how nice would Buff like in a panthers uniform? I was expecting a trade for a top center, a strong free agent d man, and one of the many salary dumps for chicago, either Buff or Versteeg. And we also will have no toughness again so expect a repeat of the Booth incident.
Yeah, we have never attracted a marquee free agent here because we suck and we've missed the playoffs for a decade, nobody with lots of options is going to come here unless we vastly over pay for them. All we can do is sign 2nd-3rd line tweeners like Stillman, like you said. And that's not going to get us anywhere. So that's why we have to rebuild from the ground up. Just because our rebuilds failed in the past is no reason to never try one again. Lots of rebuilds around the league work. The most recent being L.A. and Phoenix. I think one of the main differences this time is, like ATF alluded to, the owners this time seem to be patient enough to let Tallon execute his plan. In the past Cohen had too itchy of a trigger finger and fired guys prematurely(Dudley) or the GM probably felt pressure to win and that threw him off course from the rebuild(Martin).

Viner and Siegel's comments, as well as Torrey's, seem to indicate that they are going to keep their hands off and just let Tallon do what he has to do. If some players want to be gone and are happy to do so, then get rid of them and get futures like Tallon has done. We need to rid ourselves of the malcontents and then build fresh with a new group from the ground up who are going to be young and hungry. Eventually with Tallon's guidance we will become a winner. The alternative is to keep watching us sign 3rd liners on repeat every year and not really go anywhere. Even if we could make the playoffs by some chance doing that, we'd only be a one year wonder or couldn't advance deep into the playoffs.

Trading 1st and 2nd round picks and prospects for players like Byfuglien and Ladd isn't going to get us anywhere and is only going to set us back in the long run. Atlanta is making a strong move for the playoffs and I guess you have to commend them for it, but if they don't make it then it's a huge fail, and whether they make it or not these moves could really damage their future. I'm actually somewhat surprised Atlanta made these moves, usually you see contenders trading away their future to make moves like this to push for the Cup. I'm glad Tallon didn't do anything like this. He's doing the right thing. It hurts now but in a few years it's going to feel really good.

There's also plenty of time to add toughness, and Tallon is big on toughness, so I would expect to see a guy brought in within the next few weeks. Look for Boulton or Asham probably.

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