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Old
07-02-2010, 06:15 PM
  #26
hockeyball
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Originally Posted by GuitarByte View Post
how do you know that? Again, doug wilson was some ex-player with no experience when he was hired. Heck mclellan had no nhl head coaching experience and he's better than Ron Wilson at least.

People are content with mediocrity because they're afraid what's out there is worse, you don't know if it's better or worse...
Do you know what the word 'could' means? Because apparently you do not.

He certainly 'could' be worse. That's what I said, that's what I meant. I don't know anything about him, it's irrelevant, he 'could' be worse then Doug Wilson. It's possible.

So when you say "how do you know that?" I say "I don't, and neither do you, that was my point".

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07-02-2010, 06:21 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Do you know what the word 'could' means? Because apparently you do not.

He certainly 'could' be worse. That's what I said, that's what I meant. I don't know anything about him, it's irrelevant, he 'could' be worse then Doug Wilson. It's possible.

So when you say "how do you know that?" I say "I don't, and neither do you, that was my point".
I'm not even talking about the random dbag from the hershey squirts, I'm talking in general.

My point is we need a new approach, because DW has no idea what he wants this team to be, no vision. Without the vision we just go with the wind based on what other teams are doing, and that's a terrible way to go.

I'll take the "could" before I stick with what isn't working.

Sadly we'll have to wait until DW runs out of assets and runs us into the ground before we can get a GM with a real idea of the type of team he wants to build.

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07-02-2010, 06:25 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by GuitarByte View Post
I'm not even talking about the random dbag from the hershey squirts, I'm talking in general.

My point is we need a new approach, because DW has no idea what he wants this team to be, no vision. Without the vision we just go with the wind based on what other teams are doing, and that's a terrible way to go.

I'll take the "could" before I stick with what isn't working.

Sadly we'll have to wait until DW runs out of assets and runs us into the ground before we can get a GM with a real idea of the type of team he wants to build.
You might, but a successful and profitable business owner wouldn't.

The Sharks make money. They are the epitome of success as far as off-market US based hockey teams go. Jamison would have to be a moron to mess with that. Cup be damned. Hockey is a business and it's his money.

Until the fans make it not-profitable to retain DW I don't see him going anywhere. And my point simply was, like it or not, you could get a LOT worse. Not saying you could not get better, but it's not likely to happen anytime soon.

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07-02-2010, 06:38 PM
  #29
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It depends on the situation of the team and what their projections are. You don't hire a Dean Lombardi when you fancy yourself a Cup contender. You don't hire a Brian Burke when you need to rebuild. Brian Burke would have been perfect for this team at this point. He sets a certain tone and style for a team, doesn't play favorites because of contracts, and better identifies needs for a team that's close.

But in a year like 2014 when pretty much every one of our big players is getting on in age and we need to start over, he's not at all the ideal choice. Someone like Poile or Tallon (insert fax joke) or Regeir would be good choices.

The Sharks are in a peculiar position. They weren't contenders last year, the way I saw them. They still had a good regular season like most predicted and I even thought they could get to this point with some favorable matchups and bounces. Things they didn't get last year against the Ducks, they got a better roll of the dice this year.

The same will happen next year. The spot they're in is that their best players are not getting younger and the supporting cast is getting weaker. I don't think they'll do as well during this next season but they should still be somewhere in the 4-6 range. After that, it's just dependent on matchups. They can go all the way or they can get bounced early. They're simply not in a position of strength like the Hawks and Flyers were that the team is just so good in front of the goalie that it didn't matter who they played. Sharks needed their goaltending and their scoring because the blue line isn't good enough.

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07-02-2010, 06:39 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
You might, but a successful and profitable business owner wouldn't.

The Sharks make money. They are the epitome of success as far as off-market US based hockey teams go. Jamison would have to be a moron to mess with that. Cup be damned. Hockey is a business and it's his money.

Until the fans make it not-profitable to retain DW I don't see him going anywhere. And my point simply was, like it or not, you could get a LOT worse. Not saying you could not get better, but it's not likely to happen anytime soon.
yep and our answers are actually the same, I said that sadly it wont be until DW runs us into the ground(whether that's just slowly by not being able to replace guys or pulling some idiotic trade), that's only when it becomes unprofitable.

Sharks fans are content with mediocre playoff performances so long as they can watch a winning product when they spend their money in the regular season. It is definitely more profitable than losing to eventually have the guys it takes to win the cup.

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07-02-2010, 06:46 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarByte View Post
1. Changes every year based on previous cup winner. Recently he drafted according to whoever's coming out of mass. Doesn't really draft to a style as much as he drafts "big".
2. only two coaches. Doesn't mean I like either of them but yes he sticks to one guy until he feels we need to change up the style again.
3. and 7. are the same question, and hard for me to guess because it takes much longer before you really have to replace guys. We'll see this season if he's drafted the goalie replacement. He's mostly addressed his replacement needs via trade or signing so Idk where that number of guys for replacements comes from.
8. idk how often that happens, other than with heater and a small few other examples, some say that was the reason nolan was traded(conflicts with marleau? not sure how true that is). We've got a good management in that regard, not sure how often that gets in the paper either though. Really tough category.
All of the areas are difficult to assess. I went through all of the GMs at the time and all of the areas. I missed on a few where I didn't have some of the details.

On drafting, he was good and has fallen to middling. Part of that is traded picks.

Much more to #8 than you think and there is no GM who is perfect in that area. Detroit is probably closest. DW was doing well and has fallen a bit.

Param,
I didn't put Burke in with the MOC group because I knew I would hear all the screams about Anaheim. He caught the perfect storm there. A killer draft, Pronger, Nieds and finally Carlyle. The team did exactly as I predicted afterwards. They are falling like a ton of bricks. Burke has made Toronto no better than before his arrival and there is no hope on the horizon. Vancouver was in a shambles when he left, although he did take them out of the dark ages. I would not ever want a Burke type for my team. He bears a strong resemblance to Bobby Clarke's style. You end up with an extremely bipolar team in terms of performance if you are lucky. I hope you had your laugh at the intentional oversight.

One other oversight was that I didn't put in the list was trades. A high end trader would make all trades win-win. Next would be a guy who wins on his side the majority of the time and finally down to a guy who loses every trade.

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07-02-2010, 08:30 PM
  #32
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One thing I don't get is that why is Doug Wilson always exploring trade options rather free agency? Occasionally, you might overpay but you can always trade away. Our prospect pool is already depleted as it is, and Doug still wants to explore trade option?? Once thornton and marleau retire, this team will go straight bottom.

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07-02-2010, 08:47 PM
  #33
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I think Doug said it best, "Sometimes the professor needs a new class and sometimes the class needs a new professor." At some point, people will decide that DW is the reason we haven't won it all and then and only then will there arise a hue and cry, bubbling up from the masses as in the days of the plundering of the Bastille and lo, the Ruling class will say, "Let them eat cake." And those whom shall not offer up a laurel and hearty handshake nor a harumph will be dismayed. Then shall Saint Etimer who will in take the guise of a new GM hold up the Holy Hand Grenade saying, "Oh Lord, Bless thee thy Holy Hand-grenade that thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits .... in thy mercy." The masses will see their team reviled after the new GM's carnage leaves fecal matter lain bare throughout the tank, thus shall we remember the days of the Bovine Palace and thus shall we weep because then shall we all say, "Meh ....Doug wasn't that bad."

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07-02-2010, 09:02 PM
  #34
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Doug Wilson brought in Thornton, Heatley, Boyle....practically a superstar every year for crying out loud. His team is always at the top and has won more playoff series in the past few years that all but a few teams. The farm club went to the second round of the playoffs as well.

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07-02-2010, 09:13 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSandman View Post
Doug Wilson brought in Thornton, Heatley, Boyle....practically a superstar every year for crying out loud. His team is always at the top and has won more playoff series in the past few years that all but a few teams. The farm club went to the second round of the playoffs as well.
No!!! He's A WITCH!!!!! Burn him!! Burn him. He's just the same weight as a duck and turned Carle into a newt.


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07-02-2010, 09:40 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by WineShark View Post
No!!! He's A WITCH!!!!! Burn him!! Burn him. He's just the same weight as a duck and turned Carle into a newt.

He got betta?

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07-02-2010, 09:46 PM
  #37
Tealblood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSandman View Post
Doug Wilson brought in Thornton, Heatley, Boyle....practically a superstar every year for crying out loud. His team is always at the top and has won more playoff series in the past few years that all but a few teams. The farm club went to the second round of the playoffs as well.
ah great, our ahl team is full of 2nd round chokers too.

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07-02-2010, 09:55 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by WineShark View Post
I think Doug said it best, "Sometimes the professor needs a new class and sometimes the class needs a new professor." At some point, people will decide that DW is the reason we haven't won it all and then and only then will there arise a hue and cry, bubbling up from the masses as in the days of the plundering of the Bastille and lo, the Ruling class will say, "Let them eat cake." And those whom shall not offer up a laurel and hearty handshake nor a harumph will be dismayed. Then shall Saint Etimer who will in take the guise of a new GM hold up the Holy Hand Grenade saying, "Oh Lord, Bless thee thy Holy Hand-grenade that thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits .... in thy mercy." The masses will see their team reviled after the new GM's carnage leaves fecal matter lain bare throughout the tank, thus shall we remember the days of the Bovine Palace and thus shall we weep because then shall we all say, "Meh ....Doug wasn't that bad."
Holy purple prose Nightwing.


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07-02-2010, 10:08 PM
  #39
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I think some of these posters must be too young or too new to hockey to even remember the Deano years. For example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarByte View Post
It's not a matter of having someone better, you can find replacements, there are always replacements. Heck look at DW himself, he had no experience when he replaced sutter, he was some ex-player.
Let alone remember the Cow Palace days.

DW aint perfect, but he's by far the best GM the Sharks have ever had.

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07-02-2010, 10:29 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by CupfortheSharks View Post
I think some of these posters must be too young or too new to hockey to even remember the Deano years. For example:



Let alone remember the Cow Palace days.

DW aint perfect, but he's by far the best GM the Sharks have ever had.
I think his body of work speaks for itself. Just because he is the best GM in terms of results that this franchise has had, that doesn't mean that he's getting the job done. As an extreme example, the nicest looking dog turd among dog turds is still a dog turd. lol

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07-02-2010, 10:56 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
I think his body of work speaks for itself. Just because he is the best GM in terms of results that this franchise has had, that doesn't mean that he's getting the job done. As an extreme example, the nicest looking dog turd among dog turds is still a dog turd. lol
Fair enough. No cup and some moves that are questionable as ruled by us arm chair GMs. Could he have done better? Yes. But he's done pretty darn good and given he's the best we've ever had and he is better than many (we can argue about how many) of his peers. There is a very small group of people in the world who could come in and have a chance to do a better job than him. Most of them already have jobs and aren't available. So OPs question is valid.

Who? Who besides Doug Wilson do you want to give the chance to move us from top 4 in the league to #1?

Someone who has done it before and is available....ok name him. or Take a long shot on someone who has never done it before. I doubt we really want to take that risk.

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07-02-2010, 11:10 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by CupfortheSharks View Post
Fair enough. No cup and some moves that are questionable as ruled by us arm chair GMs. Could he have done better? Yes. But he's done pretty darn good and given he's the best we've ever had and he is better than many (we can argue about how many) of his peers. There is a very small group of people in the world who could come in and have a chance to do a better job than him. Most of them already have jobs and aren't available. So OPs question is valid.

Who? Who besides Doug Wilson do you want to give the chance to move us from top 4 in the league to #1?

Someone who has done it before and is available....ok name him. or Take a long shot on someone who has never done it before. I doubt we really want to take that risk.
Sure it's valid but the vantage points between a criticizing fan, a praising fan, and an ownership group are all different and only one is relevant. There are GM's available that have won it before. Jay Feaster is one of them. But even so, it doesn't matter if ownership is raking in the dough.

Personally, I don't care one way or another whether he stays or goes. He's overrated as a GM and I don't think we're winning a Stanley Cup with him because he doesn't have the attributes that I believe a GM needs to steer a team to that goal.

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07-02-2010, 11:12 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarByte View Post
It's not a matter of having someone better, you can find replacements, there are always replacements. Heck look at DW himself, he had no experience when he replaced sutter, he was some ex-player.
DW never replaced Sutter, he replaced Dean Lombardi.

Before becoming the Sharks GM DW was our Director of Player Development (since around '97)...which is a position that gets you ready for the GM job.

DW isn't "some ex-player" he is a respected ex-player, in the same class as Yzerman.

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"he's made us more competitive"- has he really? Oh he had thornton fall on his lap, good job!. Marleau has progressed from a 20 goal scorer to a 40 goal scorer, that helps.
Look at the players that were on this team when Deano was thrown out and look at today's roster. Before DW we were 5th-8th position team. After him we are serious Cup contenders.

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Before the lockout lombardi did a lot of the work that really got this franchise out of the hole. DW has had fun trading the foundation lombardi laid out for him for the flavor of the month perceived "need"(based off of who won the cup). First move as gm=trade jillson/boyes for brown? yuck. We had no need for heater. His constant deadline deals show a lack of confidence in his teams and his willingness to give up picks and prospects along with youth shows he has no long term plan.
Boyes had no spot on the Sharks. We needed a Sturm replacement and we got that in Brown, DW definitely overpaid but it had to do with market dynamics more than anything else. Just so you know Boyes at that point had spent a few years in the AHL for both TOR & SJ.

If you get a chance to get a top sniper you get him, no thinking about. DW got Heatley & Thornton for pennies on the dollar. Both those trades were excellent. Also the way Heatley's contract is the Sharks are only paying him around $4mil a season although the cap hit is $7mil+, that is a very smart business decision also. (OTT paid much of his salary in the form of bonuses that's why they were pissed off at the Heatley trade request.)

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Originally Posted by GuitarByte View Post
You talk about OUR need to have instant success, but isn't that DW's m.o? not ours. Whenever we come short the team has to be retooled, rethought, the whole plan(if there is one) changed and construed.

DW has made various mistakes, in good intention and looking in hindsight sure, but still dumb moves.
DW was some random ex-player that came out of nowhere with no GM experience, there aren't any sites that say "here's some guys that would be good GM's", ownership just kinda picks someone and goes with it.

It's time for a change in team approach, we need someone who thinks about both the present and keeps in mind the future by both picking a style and sticking with it, and then drafting and signing to get players to fit that style. The only thing doug wilson has proven is you can't buy a cup unless, in the hawks case, you've also got key guys with cheap contracts that makes it so you can afford high profile FA's. He's also proven that you can't change your team every year based on the previous year's cup winner because a different style team wins almost every year.
You clearly are new to the NHL Welcome aboard. But study the game (on-ice & off-ice) before you make a fool out of yourself.

Before analyzing DW spend sometime looking at the following:
Glen Sather
Mike Milbury
Mike Kennan
Don Waddell
Doug Maclean...... It's a long list and I don't want to list them all.

DW's is he a respectable guy. The type of rare person nowadays whose word means something (see Clowe & Mitchell extensions) who doesn't try to nickel & dime his away with his player (like our previous GM Deano). Respectability is important remember how no one wanted to come the Sharks as Free Agents, before we brought in guys like Vinny & Selanne. For those that don't know Gretzky snubbed us when he was a UFA. Being respectable also means cheaper UFAs like Manny & Nicole.

DW's biggest mistake (without knowing the inside story) trading Christian. Even that doesn't matter since in the end Blake was more useful to us with his rugged style this season.

One thing everyone mentions is how we haven't won the Cup, but they seem to forget that we have only missed the playoffs once since '97 ('02-'03 season). That is quite an achievement, plus I don't know about anyone else but I don't want to be in the company of the Kings, Isles, Panthers, etc...

DW isn't perfect, no one is, but he is a damn good GM.


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07-02-2010, 11:15 PM
  #44
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His biggest mistake was trading for Bell.

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07-02-2010, 11:26 PM
  #45
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I would have not fired Dean Lombardi in the first place. He was the man who crafted our WCF run in 03-04. I think he deserved better than to have been fired after the 02-03 craptastic year where everything went wrong on the ice.

In my opinion, what set us back after that WCF appearance was that Doug Wilson chose to not do anything. He let 5 or 6 players leave, didn't replace them, and our holes forced a trade for Joe Thornton, but it took him about 5 years to build a team that was as successful as that 03-04 team.

Say what you will about Lombardi taking hard lines in contract negotiations, but the man would never have done nothing in an offseason.

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07-02-2010, 11:26 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarByte View Post
aren't you the one that said wallin was given more money so that we can put him through waivers and not worry about anyone grabbing him? LOL.

and he has had other contract blunders, look at carle getting 3.5 after one 11 goal season, then he went on to score 2 goals under the heavy weight of the contract lol...
Wallin got a 800k raise not huge for a UFA. He could have gotten more as a UFA.

Carle's contract was inline with a player of his caliber, the only error on DW's part was that he should have offered Carle a 1 year deal before doing a multi-year. Look around at how much guys like Meszaros got around the same time.

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07-02-2010, 11:29 PM
  #47
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His biggest mistake was trading for Bell.
Only if he knew the Bell was going to get arrested for a DUI in Milpitas. He swapped Pressing for Bell. Not a bad deal at all at the time. It just looks bad now due to off-ice reasons. When we got Bell his career stock was increasing.

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I would have not fired Dean Lombardi in the first place. He was the man who crafted our WCF run in 03-04. I think he deserved better than to have been fired after the 02-03 craptastic year where everything went wrong on the ice.

In my opinion, what set us back after that WCF appearance was that Doug Wilson chose to not do anything. He let 5 or 6 players leave, didn't replace them, and our holes forced a trade for Joe Thornton, but it took him about 5 years to build a team that was as successful as that 03-04 team.

Say what you will about Lombardi taking hard lines in contract negotiations, but the man would never have done nothing in an offseason.
I was and still am happy to see Deano not in the Sharks org. Dean Lombardi is a good GM but he needs to stop playing mind games with his players & fans.

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07-03-2010, 12:09 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dumpnchase View Post
DW never replaced Sutter, he replaced Dean Lombardi.

Before becoming the Sharks GM DW was our Director of Player Development (since around '97)...which is a position that gets you ready for the GM job.

DW isn't "some ex-player" he is a respected ex-player, in the same class as Yzerman.



Look at the players that were on this team when Deano was thrown out and look at today's roster. Before DW we were 5th-8th position team. After him we are serious Cup contenders.



Boyes had no spot on the Sharks. We needed a Sturm replacement and we got that in Brown, DW definitely overpaid but it had to do with market dynamics more than anything else. Just so you know Boyes at that point had spent a few years in the AHL for both TOR & SJ.

If you get a chance to get a top sniper you get him, no thinking about. DW got Heatley & Thornton for pennies on the dollar. Both those trades were excellent. Also the way Heatley's contract is the Sharks are only paying him around $4mil a season although the cap hit is $7mil+, that is a very smart business decision also. (OTT paid much of his salary in the form of bonuses that's why they were pissed off at the Heatley trade request.)



You clearly are new to the NHL Welcome aboard. But study the game (on-ice & off-ice) before you make a fool out of yourself.

Before analyzing DW spend sometime looking at the following:
Glen Sather
Mike Milbury
Mike Kennan
Don Waddell
Doug Maclean...... It's a long list and I don't want to list them all.

DW's is he a respectable guy. The type of rare person nowadays whose word means something (see Clowe & Mitchell extensions) who doesn't try to nickel & dime his away with his player (like our previous GM Deano). Respectability is important remember how no one wanted to come the Sharks as Free Agents, before we brought in guys like Vinny & Selanne. For those that don't know Gretzky snubbed us when he was a UFA. Being respectable also means cheaper UFAs like Manny & Nicole.

DW's biggest mistake (without knowing the inside story) trading Christian. Even that doesn't matter since in the end Blake was more useful to us with his rugged style this season.

One thing everyone mentions is how we haven't won the Cup, but they seem to forget that we have only missed the playoffs once since '97 ('02-'03 season). That is quite an achievement, plus I don't know about anyone else but I don't want to be in the company of the Kings, Isles, Panthers, etc...

DW isn't perfect, no one is, but he is a damn good GM.
"your clearly new to the nhl" uh what? do you say that to everyone who doesn't agree with you? Ok. Just because I've only known about hfboards for 2 years now(instead of 5 for you) doesn't mean I haven't watched them for more.

As for that list of crap GM's, yes I know who they are, there are worse GM's out there, I never said there wasn't. I said I'd take the risk for a new approach.

-I meant lombardi, sutter was coach at the time >_<. Get them switched because sutter's a gm now.
-Point being DW is just an ex-player, hall of famer or not(he's not, yet at least, and never won a cup), if we can throw coaches under the bus for consistent playoff failure why not the head honcho? DW puts so much emphasis on getting cup winners, yet look at him, hypocrite?

-the cap hit on that deal was still enough to make us lose ehrhoff on top of milan, considering our
offense was perfectly fine I don't see why we'd shed our D apart for a one dimensional sniper.
-blake is gone now, as our D just keeps depleting, and his first contract was absolutely disgusting for a 39 year old-former norris winner or not.

-'everyone mentions how we haven't won the cup, as long as we make the playoffs I'll keep renewing my Season tickets! yay for mediocrity!' typical drone response.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dumpnchase View Post
Wallin got a 800k raise not huge for a UFA. He could have gotten more as a UFA.

Carle's contract was inline with a player of his caliber, the only error on DW's part was that he should have offered Carle a 1 year deal before doing a multi-year. Look around at how much guys like Meszaros got around the same time.
800k raise isn't huge for a good ufa, and no he would NOT have gotten that in the market. If foster only gets 1.8 there's no way wallin pulls 2.5.

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07-03-2010, 12:39 AM
  #49
TheSandman
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IIRC Wilson also had something like 10 years experience in an administrative/management position for the NHLPA. He has more background that that of your standard ex-player.

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07-03-2010, 02:43 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarByte View Post
aren't you the one that said wallin was given more money so that we can put him through waivers and not worry about anyone grabbing him? LOL.

and he has had other contract blunders, look at carle getting 3.5 after one 11 goal season, then he went on to score 2 goals under the heavy weight of the contract lol...
I sure am.

I'm more concerned with finding reasons behind why DW would make such a move, as opposed to 'boo-hooing' about it. Or spending a lot of time on HFboards whining about something that you can't change.

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