HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-03-2010, 12:32 AM
  #1
Shawn Wilken
Hockey's Future Staff
@CrimsonSkorpion
 
Shawn Wilken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Lachine, Quebec
Country: Germany
Posts: 31,441
vCash: 50
Awards:
The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

I've posted my second blog entry, this time covering the free agent frenzy thus far. I don't plan on adding to it, since I like the players in each slot. These choices are solely based on my opinion and are not based off of anyone else's opinions or comments. This is exactly what came to mind once I heard about the confirmations to the contracts and I actually had them written down on paper before posting this blog.

Hopefully this doesn't get moved or closed, since I really do hope you all get to read it and comment about it. Once again, constructive criticism and flat-out complimentary comments are welcome.

http://hometownanalysis.blogspot.com

Enjoy.

Shawn Wilken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2010, 12:39 AM
  #2
HabsHockey*
Keep Keeping On
 
HabsHockey*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,984
vCash: 500
Did you really have to mention Lecav?

HabsHockey* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2010, 12:44 AM
  #3
Shawn Wilken
Hockey's Future Staff
@CrimsonSkorpion
 
Shawn Wilken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Lachine, Quebec
Country: Germany
Posts: 31,441
vCash: 50
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsHockey View Post
Did you really have to mention Lecav?
Yes, yes I did.

Shawn Wilken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2010, 12:51 AM
  #4
HabsHockey*
Keep Keeping On
 
HabsHockey*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,984
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
Yes, yes I did.
Lol, ok.

HabsHockey* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2010, 02:12 AM
  #5
Le Tricolore
Boo! Booooo!
 
Le Tricolore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 29,730
vCash: 152
I won't click on the link based 100% on you mentioning Lecavalier in it.

Le Tricolore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2010, 02:17 AM
  #6
Habs Fan 13
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 224
vCash: 500
Volchenkov in the bads??

Habs Fan 13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2010, 08:52 AM
  #7
Shawn Wilken
Hockey's Future Staff
@CrimsonSkorpion
 
Shawn Wilken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Lachine, Quebec
Country: Germany
Posts: 31,441
vCash: 50
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs Fan 13 View Post
Volchenkov in the bads??
Overpaid for a shot-blocking D that can hit hard, the term is too long and the money is too much and he's open to injury with the style he plays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Tricolore View Post
I won't click on the link based 100% on you mentioning Lecavalier in it.
I took him out. Seems he's a touchy subject around here.

Shawn Wilken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2010, 11:05 AM
  #8
HabuseMoi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,328
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
I took him out. Seems he's a touchy subject around here.
C'mon, your opinion changes because one poster won't click on your link? Don't censor yourself because some people disagree with you...

HabuseMoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2010, 11:18 AM
  #9
Shawn Wilken
Hockey's Future Staff
@CrimsonSkorpion
 
Shawn Wilken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Lachine, Quebec
Country: Germany
Posts: 31,441
vCash: 50
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by HabuseMoi View Post
C'mon, your opinion changes because one poster won't click on your link? Don't censor yourself because some people disagree with you...
My opinion doesn't change just because I took him out. Looking back, it didn't really make sense. Kovalchuk and Frolov are UFAs, which makes sense with my article, while Lecavalier is not.

Shawn Wilken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2010, 12:09 PM
  #10
fredez
Registered User
 
fredez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,418
vCash: 500
I'm actually not sure how good St. Louis's contract is. It's an over 35 contract so no matter what happens (retirement or whatever) his money will count against the cap for the next 4 years. Meaning that if he retires at 37, Tampa has to pay 5.625 on their cap with no player showing up for it for two seasons.

5.625 is a steal for a St. Louis now but it's very risky since he's over 35.

fredez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2010, 06:35 PM
  #11
Franked
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 258
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredez View Post
I'm actually not sure how good St. Louis's contract is. It's an over 35 contract so no matter what happens (retirement or whatever) his money will count against the cap for the next 4 years. Meaning that if he retires at 37, Tampa has to pay 5.625 on their cap with no player showing up for it for two seasons.

5.625 is a steal for a St. Louis now but it's very risky since he's over 35.
The guy rarely gets injured, is a beast, and seems just as good as he was 5 years ago. Maybe he won't be as good at 39, but I have a feeling he will still be elite. Of course, he could always have a freak injury. It's a gamble, but with nice odds in my opinion.

Franked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2010, 10:06 PM
  #12
Kriss E
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 27,314
vCash: 500
It seems that you focus most criticism on money though.
It's been what, 5years now that there's the cap??..every year, it's the same record. Overpayment by a million or so...
Overpayment by 1M has become the norm for UFA, so really, is it still fair to criticize teams for it?..I don't think so.

Some of the signings I disagree with you on. Gonchar is not an overpayment. Whether you think he's old or not, he deserves that money. It's less than Markov money, signed three years later.
He might not be as good as Markov, just a tad underneath, but the man has stellar numbers.
And three years really isn't that bad. He becomes their #1 Dman, PP QB and best puck mover, surely that is worthy of 5M when the cap hit is close to 60M.

Matt Cullen isn't that bad of a signing either. What I found funny though, is that you mention that Lombardi signed the exact same contract which made Cullen's even worse.
But there is seriously very little difference between both players. Both are centers, one is a bit bigger (Cullen) while the other is a bit younger. Their career scoring ratio is identical with .53 (Lombardi) and .52 (Cullen). Cullen has more PO experience though and a better producing rate with .57 compared to .4 for Lombardi.
So really, explain to me how Lombardi's deal is just THAT much better than Cullen's??..

I don't think Colby Amrstrong is a good signing either mainly because the Leafs need Scoring and he doesn't fill that void.
It seems like, as usual, the primary attribute was aggressiveness/roughness.
Versteeg was a better move, although I have my reservations as to how much he'll be able to produce when he's pretty much the best forward (or top 2 with Kessel).

Anyways, I hope you don't view this as an attack of some sort. HF posters can be so insecure at times. This was my attempt at a constructive criticism.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2010, 10:12 PM
  #13
chaosrevolver
Snubbed Again
 
chaosrevolver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,531
vCash: 500
Why is Tanguay's ugly? Big woop..1.7 MIL is nothing considering what he can do. And big deal if he got a NMC..it's a one year deal.

chaosrevolver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2010, 11:28 PM
  #14
Shawn Wilken
Hockey's Future Staff
@CrimsonSkorpion
 
Shawn Wilken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Lachine, Quebec
Country: Germany
Posts: 31,441
vCash: 50
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Anyways, I hope you don't view this as an attack of some sort. HF posters can be so insecure at times. This was my attempt at a constructive criticism.
Actually, no I don't view it as an attack at all. I really do appreciate you giving me your opinion on why you think some of the signings were good and some were bad. I will still stick with my opinion, but thank you for your time and your constructive criticism. And since it's been done on a regular basis and I don't want to be accused of it, no I'm not being in any way sarcastic about anything I just said. I really do appreciate the feedback. Now I feel like someone that works for the Gazette, people think I'm wrong. Kidding, kidding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
Why is Tanguay's ugly? Big woop..1.7 MIL is nothing considering what he can do. And big deal if he got a NMC..it's a one year deal.
Alright, I was hoping someone would bring this up, because I wanted to clear myself up on this.

Do I think this was as horrible as Jokinen? Not even close. Probably not as bad as Boogaard either. But my reason for putting him there right next to Jokinen is because combined with those two guys going back to Calgary, Sutter's sanity is being questioned and some people, including me, think this could cost Sutter his job by the end of the year. Bringing back the past, which clearly did not work out for them, is not a wise decision thinking it will bring a better result.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"
-Albert Einstein

So yes, $1.7 million is not that much, although it's not what his worth is when you look back to last season and the NMC just doesn't make sense really. Big whoop, it's one year, but then why need it? I just think it's ugly to see Calgary taking two steps backwards, literally, and expect things to change for the better.

Shawn Wilken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2010, 11:44 PM
  #15
Chroncelot
Registered User
 
Chroncelot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 63
vCash: 500
I don't think Gonchar move is that bad for OTT.

It will make Spezza and Alffy a lot more potent on the PP. Gonchar is a winner as well, and will give some good back end leadership by example.

3 years is a little risky(but not extreme) but maybe that's what it took to get him to OTT.


I agree with all your other statements. Including the no Street Fighter while blogging rule.

Chroncelot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 12:06 AM
  #16
Ozymandias
#firetherrien
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,438
vCash: 500
I find it highly odd how the op praises St-Louis's contract at 5,6 for 4 years, ending when he'll be 39, same age as Gonchar will be when his own 5,5 mil contract will be up, and totally downgrading the importance of a player like Gonchar on a team compared to St-Louis. If Gonchar's contract is bad, look at the arguments you use bro, because the same damn things can be said of St-Louis.

He's always been a premiere offensive D, but he turned a new leaf in the last few seasons and became very good defensively. The Pens always suffered when he was out of the lineup, even though they had Crosby and Malkin. People are raving over Doughty and Myers, and before that, guys like Weber and Burns, because they seem to pull their teams on their backs, and don't realize it's because besides the goalie, your #1 D is more often than not the most important player on your team. When players like Gonchar and Markov and Chara go down, the team will have a harder time coping than with the lost of any other player.

Gonchar will be a good signing, and is as much at risk then St-Louis to all the things mentioned about Gonchar, and a 5,5 cap hit for such a player is actually the going rate for a few years now, no overpayment, no matter the age.

IMO, Montreal and Ottawa will battle out the top of the division, as I see more ??? with the other 3 teams.

And for the Pens sake, I hope Bylsma will have enough of Letang as best O-Dmen, and wants to concentrate on a better defensive system (funny, when you think of it, they seemed inspired by what the Habs did) and got two very good, mostly defensive Ds. Pittsburg's offense IMO will lose a lot of punch, and watch out for Ottawa... (and the Habs, who IMO will have the team packing the most punch from the blue line, which is one of the most important aspects in today's hockey IMO).


Last edited by Ozymandias: 07-04-2010 at 12:16 AM.
Ozymandias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 12:28 AM
  #17
Shawn Wilken
Hockey's Future Staff
@CrimsonSkorpion
 
Shawn Wilken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Lachine, Quebec
Country: Germany
Posts: 31,441
vCash: 50
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
I find it highly odd how the op praises St-Louis's contract at 5,6 for 4 years, ending when he'll be 39, same age as Gonchar will be when his own 5,5 mil contract will be up, and totally downgrading the importance of a player like Gonchar on a team compared to St-Louis. If Gonchar's contract is bad, look at the arguments you use bro, because the same damn things can be said of St-Louis.

He's always been a premiere offensive D, but he turned a new leaf in the last few seasons and became very good defensively. The Pens always suffered when he was out of the lineup, even though they had Crosby and Malkin. People are raving over Doughty and Myers, and before that, guys like Weber and Burns, because they seem to pull their teams on their backs, and don't realize it's because besides the goalie, your #1 D is more often than not the most important player on your team. When players like Gonchar and Markov and Chara go down, the team will have a harder time coping than with the lost of any other player.

Gonchar will be a good signing, and is as much at risk then St-Louis to all the things mentioned about Gonchar, and a 5,5 cap hit for such a player is actually the going rate for a few years now, no overpayment, no matter the age.

IMO, Montreal and Ottawa will battle out the top of the division, as I see more ??? with the other 3 teams.

And for the Pens sake, I hope Bylsma will have enough of Letang as best O-Dmen, and wants to concentrate on a better defensive system (funny, when you think of it, they seemed inspired by what the Habs did) and got two very good, mostly defensive Ds. Pittsburg's offense IMO will lose a lot of punch, and watch out for Ottawa... (and the Habs, who IMO will have the team packing the most punch from the blue line, which is one of the most important aspects in today's hockey IMO).
St. Louis means way more to Tampa Bay then Gonchar does to Ottawa. I didn't just praise St. Louis' numbers, I also praised his worth to the team beyond the contract. As for your opinion on Gonchar's numbers being fair, I respect that. I've spoken with lots of Pens fans and Ottawa fans (not on HFBoards, might I add) and the most of them believe that $5.5 cap hit is high. Doesn't mean they're right or wrong, but the future can only tell. Like someone said earlier on, St. Louis can retire to years before his contract is up and they still have to pay him. Do I think he will do that, no, but anything can happen.

Just curious though, with the probable arrival of P.K. Subban into the line-up this upcoming season, is he the only reason that brings you to the conclusion that the Habs will pack the most offensive punch from the blue line?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chroncelot View Post
I don't think Gonchar move is that bad for OTT.

It will make Spezza and Alffy a lot more potent on the PP. Gonchar is a winner as well, and will give some good back end leadership by example.

3 years is a little risky(but not extreme) but maybe that's what it took to get him to OTT.


I agree with all your other statements. Including the no Street Fighter while blogging rule.
Street Fighter is a deadly thing. I almost yelled Hadoken at the first person that said I was wrong. kidding.

Shawn Wilken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 12:53 AM
  #18
Kriss E
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 27,314
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
St. Louis means way more to Tampa Bay then Gonchar does to Ottawa. I didn't just praise St. Louis' numbers, I also praised his worth to the team beyond the contract. As for your opinion on Gonchar's numbers being fair, I respect that. I've spoken with lots of Pens fans and Ottawa fans (not on HFBoards, might I add) and the most of them believe that $5.5 cap hit is high. Doesn't mean they're right or wrong, but the future can only tell. Like someone said earlier on, St. Louis can retire to years before his contract is up and they still have to pay him. Do I think he will do that, no, but anything can happen.

Just curious though, with the probable arrival of P.K. Subban into the line-up this upcoming season, is he the only reason that brings you to the conclusion that the Habs will pack the most offensive punch from the blue line?
I disagree on the importance of St-Louis over Gonchar.
Remove St-Louis and you still have Stamkos, Vinny, Malone that can step up offensively. With the proper offensively defensive support, they could very well manage.
Take away Gonchar from Ottawa and the team will suffer significantly. Not only is the PP going to be affected, but the whole counter transition game will too.

It's simple, in terms of importance you have :
1- #1Goalie
2- First Defenseman
3- Top Center
4- Top Wingers


As for us, of course Subban will be part of the reason.
The fact, Markov shouldn't miss half the year is another.
I also expect Hammer and Spacek to be much more comfortable this year (same goes for the rest of our players). Gorges seem to keep improving every year as well.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 12:55 AM
  #19
Ozymandias
#firetherrien
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,438
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
St. Louis means way more to Tampa Bay then Gonchar does to Ottawa. I didn't just praise St. Louis' numbers, I also praised his worth to the team beyond the contract. As for your opinion on Gonchar's numbers being fair, I respect that. I've spoken with lots of Pens fans and Ottawa fans (not on HFBoards, might I add) and the most of them believe that $5.5 cap hit is high. Doesn't mean they're right or wrong, but the future can only tell. Like someone said earlier on, St. Louis can retire to years before his contract is up and they still have to pay him. Do I think he will do that, no, but anything can happen.
Seriously, don't you see your contradictions here :

About Gonchar :
Quote:
But just how much can we expect out of a 35 year old veteran? Even with his offensive upside and his good first pass, can anyone actually tell me that giving $5.5 million a year, for three years is reasonable?
Quote:
It's an overpayment and it's a bad one considering the fact that when the contract is up, he'll be 38.
These were your two MAIN arguments to say Gonchar's contract was bad, but HELLO! all those arguments are the exact same that can be said for Saint-Louis (the flaws), even worse, his contract is 4 years, will end when he'll be 39. As for their respective salaries, dear lord, their contribution in their respective categories is what had them at about the same salary on both their previous contracts than the one they had now, both took a slight pay cut (not even sure in the case of St-Louis) so how is one an overpayment and the other isn't? Evenmore so, Gonchar was signed ON the market, where there is a bidding war, while St-Louis just re-signed with the same team, you'd think St-Louis would come at a bigger hometown discount, whereas Gonchar should be overpaid, yet he's in league standards, and even took a 500k pay cut even though his numbers have been steady.

Find better arguments, because the ones you used have a huge double-standard that seem rooted in some kind of pro-whoever bias, whether it'd be St-Louis or Yzerman.

Quote:
Just curious though, with the probable arrival of P.K. Subban into the line-up this upcoming season, is he the only reason that brings you to the conclusion that the Habs will pack the most offensive punch from the blue line?
See how you try to corner my words in a simplistic view? ADDING Subban will give the Habs the most punch on the blue line, not because of ONLY him, but because he will be ADDED to an already deep squad. Hammer and Spacek are both able to close to 30 points, add Subban to Markov in the 40-50+ points category, and unless one of them misses the better part of the season, I don't see which team has more firepower on the blueline. And it will only get better as Subban gains experience and if Markov can come back to form. Put Subban on one pairing and Markov on the other one, and you'll have over 45-50 minutes of strong offensive, defensive and especially, transition play. As we have two capable lines, with two two-way centers, now we'll have a talented Offensive D to quarter back each of those lines, which could have a strong snowball effect, as teams will have to check both lines as much, rather than concentrate mostly on the one getting Markov's contribution.

Elite two-way puck-moving Ds can make or break a team's season. And we have two of them now. I'm not reinventing the wheel here. Bowman said so himself 2 years back, mentioned how succesful teams are the ones getting the most shots from the blueline (lo and behold, Habs had Markov and Streit the season Bowman said that, and finished with 104 points...), and the reason for this is simple, your best offensive D is the one controlling the cycle from the point (on most teams), most offensive cycles are made with shots and passes from the point. Now, if that #1 D can also play very good defensively and is also very good at carrying the transition, well then you have your main cog for your team, your most important player, as he's also the one playing the most minutes, besides the goalie. We have TWO of those now. That will make a huge difference in the upcoming seasons.

Problem with most people is they concentrate on what they see that is missing (and it's not a whole lot for the Habs right now), and tend to not see the strong points. You do realize we haven't seen this team with both Subban AND Markov in the lineup, right? The impact of Gonchar will be big for Ottawa, as will the addition of Subban to a healthy Habs squad IMO.


Last edited by Ozymandias: 07-04-2010 at 01:13 AM.
Ozymandias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 01:04 AM
  #20
Shawn Wilken
Hockey's Future Staff
@CrimsonSkorpion
 
Shawn Wilken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Lachine, Quebec
Country: Germany
Posts: 31,441
vCash: 50
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I disagree on the importance of St-Louis over Gonchar.
Remove St-Louis and you still have Stamkos, Vinny, Malone that can step up offensively. With the proper offensively defensive support, they could very well manage.
Take away Gonchar from Ottawa and the team will suffer significantly. Not only is the PP going to be affected, but the whole counter transition game will too.

It's simple, in terms of importance you have :
1- #1Goalie
2- First Defenseman
3- Top Center
4- Top Wingers


As for us, of course Subban will be part of the reason.
The fact, Markov shouldn't miss half the year is another.
I also expect Hammer and Spacek to be much more comfortable this year (same goes for the rest of our players). Gorges seem to keep improving every year as well.
Point production is not really what I was talking about, when it comes to St. Louis. He's a true leader with a huge heart and he's served as a great mentor to Stamkos. Sorry, but someone who can put up numbers the way he does AND at the same time present such a presence and help the future stars of the team is a very important person to retain with your team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Seriously, don't you see your contradictions here :

About Gonchar :




These were your two MAIN arguments to say Gonchar's contract was bad, but HELLO! all those arguments are the exact same that can be said for Saint-Louis (the flaws), even worse, his contract is 4 years, will end when he'll be 39. As for their respective salaries, dear lord, their contribution in their respective categories is what had them at about the same salary on both their previous contracts than the one they had now, both took a slight pay cut (not even sure in the case of St-Louis) so how is one an overpayment and the other isn't? Evenmore so, Gonchar was signed ON the market, where there is a bidding war, while St-Louis just re-signed with the same team, you'd think St-Louis would come at a bigger hometown discount, whereas Gonchar should be overpaid, yet he's in league standards, and even took a 500k pay cut even though his numbers have been steady.

Find better arguments, because the ones you used have a huge double-standard that seem rooted in some kind of pro-whoever bias, whether it'd be St-Louis or Yzerman.



See how you try to corner my words in a simplistic view? ADDING Subban will give the Habs the most punch on the blue line, not because of ONLY him, but because he will be ADDED to an already deep squad. Hammer and Spacek are both able to close to 30 points, add Subban to Markov, and unless one of them misses the better part of the season, I don't see which team has more firepower on the blueline. And it will only get better as Subban gains experience and if Markov can come back to form. Put Subban on one pairing and Markov on the other one, and you'll have over 45-50 minutes of strong offensive, defensive and especially, transition play. As we have two capable lines, with two two-way centers, now we'll have a talented Offensive D to quarter back each of those lines, which could have a strong snowball effect, as teams will have to check both lines as much, rather than concentrate mostly on the one getting Markov's contribution.

Elite two-way puck-moving Ds can make or break a team's season. And we have two of them now.

Problem with most people is they concentrate on what they see that is missing (and it's not a whole lot for the Habs right now), and tend to not see the strong points. You do realize we haven't seen this team with both Subban AND Markov in the lineup, right? The impact of Gonchar will be big for Ottawa, as will the addition of Subban to a healthy Habs squad IMO.
Have I struck something with you this early morning. It seems like you're taking offense to some of the things I'm saying and if so, then I apologize.

On the Gonchar/St. Louis debate, my argument is simple. Murray brought in Gonchar as a PP specialist that can move the puck. Fine, that's great but in my opinion it's too much money, especially if Ottawa wants to make it to the playoffs, Gonchar has shown far too many flashes of inconsistency defensively, and I'm not just talking about the Moen play. St. Louis, I can agree, maybe he could have taken less as a hometown discount. But it's hard to argue that he hasn't earned a single penny off that extension. St. Louis is a mentor and a leader in that lockeroom, among the fact that he posts decent numbers offensively. In my opinion, I take St. Louis with that contract over Gonchar with his contract. Again, my opinion. Just because it doesn't match your opinion, doesn't mean you need to get so angry.

And for the love of God, "corner your words"? I simply asked a question. Nothing more was meant by that at all. I was curious to know more about your point of view, hence why I asked. If you'd like to make this a flame war though, I have no intention of continuing.

Shawn Wilken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 01:25 AM
  #21
Ozymandias
#firetherrien
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,438
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
Have I struck something with you this early morning. It seems like you're taking offense to some of the things I'm saying and if so, then I apologize.

On the Gonchar/St. Louis debate, my argument is simple. Murray brought in Gonchar as a PP specialist that can move the puck. Fine, that's great but in my opinion it's too much money, especially if Ottawa wants to make it to the playoffs, Gonchar has shown far too many flashes of inconsistency defensively, and I'm not just talking about the Moen play. St. Louis, I can agree, maybe he could have taken less as a hometown discount. But it's hard to argue that he hasn't earned a single penny off that extension. St. Louis is a mentor and a leader in that lockeroom, among the fact that he posts decent numbers offensively. In my opinion, I take St. Louis with that contract over Gonchar with his contract. Again, my opinion. Just because it doesn't match your opinion, doesn't mean you need to get so angry.

And for the love of God, "corner your words"? I simply asked a question. Nothing more was meant by that at all. I was curious to know more about your point of view, hence why I asked. If you'd like to make this a flame war though, I have no intention of continuing.
We'll stop at the bolded part because you seem unable to understand what a player like Gonchar brings. Murray brought him in AS A #1 elite two-way puck-moving D, and describing Gonchar the way you did is just plain silly, he's much more than what you wrote. You also fail to realize how the arguments you used are the same for both, you're just blinded by your bias towards St-Louis. You do realize Gonchar has been top 5 among Dmen for points per game each season, for more than 5 seasons? A PP specialist is somone like Bergeron. Gonchar gets almost half his points at even-strenght, and it's not Crosby or Malkin who made him good, jeeze, he's always been this dominant on offense, and now has become way better on D.

Don't you think Gonchar helped with the young Crosby and Malkin?? You could actually SEE and HEAR in both lockerooms and fully appreciate their respecitve impacts, and could fully conclude that St-Louis is by far superior in that category?

Haven't they both won a cup and were both an integral part of those cup runs?
Haven't they both carried young players on their lines???
Won't they both be 38-39 when their new contract runs out?
Aren't they both top 5 in their position for points?
Didn't they both have similar cap hits on their previous contract???
Weren't they both assistant captains?
Don't they both have comparative contracts from other similar players that show their salaries are in league standards?

All the answers to these questions are the same for both player. Do you see my point now?

As for your last paragraph, gee switch to decaf, do you go on the defensive everytime someone challenges your views? I mentioned ADDING Subban, you switched that to ONLY Subban, you preconcluded for me with your question, you assumed it was based on ONLY Subban. Flame war... oh come on, get serious bro. Try countering my arguments, or find new arguments that can actually prove your point, which the previous ones really didn't.

If Gonchar's contract signing is bad, than St-Louis too. If St-Louis's contract is good, anyone could make an easy case to you showing how Gonchar's own contract is about the same.


Last edited by Ozymandias: 07-04-2010 at 01:45 AM.
Ozymandias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 03:46 AM
  #22
Vlad The Impaler
Registered User
 
Vlad The Impaler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Montreal
Posts: 11,734
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
Once again, constructive criticism and flat-out complimentary comments are welcome.
It's an interesting read and not too conventional, kudos for that. But I can't say I agree with a lot of it and certainly your take on Tanguay's contract appears completely out to lunch.

As you've basically admitted yourself, I think you're compounding this signing and Jokinen's. That seems to color your evaluation a whole lot. Anytime you can get a scoring line quality forward for 1.7, it can't be an ugly move.

The NMC is no big deal. Here's what you may be missing: Even though Tanguay is coming off a crappy season, it's quite possible he might have been able to get in the neighborhood of $2M from other teams. It's quite possible this is a strategic move on his part. Take less, choose an environment you believe will give you the best chance at a great season and then raise your stock for the next contract. The NMC is key to do that.

Those clauses can also be lifted anyway.

Worse case scenario, Tanguay is going to perform like a 1.5M player. Best case scenario, he's gonna perform like a 5M player. The guy has been amazing in the past as an offensive player and a penalty killer too and doesn't have many glaring issues as a distraction or anything.

This is a great signing for the Flames. The price tag is right, the team is right, the NMC is logical and the length of the deal is the bare minimum one year. The only thing they might regret next year is not signing him for longer if he works out.

Vlad The Impaler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 04:11 AM
  #23
Darth Joker
Registered User
 
Darth Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,800
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler View Post
It's an interesting read and not too conventional, kudos for that. But I can't say I agree with a lot of it and certainly your take on Tanguay's contract appears completely out to lunch.

As you've basically admitted yourself, I think you're compounding this signing and Jokinen's. That seems to color your evaluation a whole lot. Anytime you can get a scoring line quality forward for 1.7, it can't be an ugly move.

The NMC is no big deal. Here's what you may be missing: Even though Tanguay is coming off a crappy season, it's quite possible he might have been able to get in the neighborhood of $2M from other teams. It's quite possible this is a strategic move on his part. Take less, choose an environment you believe will give you the best chance at a great season and then raise your stock for the next contract. The NMC is key to do that.

Those clauses can also be lifted anyway.

Worse case scenario, Tanguay is going to perform like a 1.5M player. Best case scenario, he's gonna perform like a 5M player. The guy has been amazing in the past as an offensive player and a penalty killer too and doesn't have many glaring issues as a distraction or anything.

This is a great signing for the Flames. The price tag is right, the team is right, the NMC is logical and the length of the deal is the bare minimum one year. The only thing they might regret next year is not signing him for longer if he works out.
I agree with you on Tanguay. Seems like a very low-risk and high-reward sort of reclamation project to me. Anything south of $2 million a year is practically peanuts in today's NHL. It's bad when you have that sort of money invested in a Laraque, but for any average or better NHLer, it's fine.


I also think that the Volchenkov contract is decent. Not great, but at least decent. Komisarek pretty much set the market for players of his and Volchenkov's type. That player being a legit Top 4 D that's almost entirely defensive and is a great hitter, shotblocker and overall shutdown guy. Those sorts of players are now slated for between $4 and $5 million a year, like it or not. Taking that in mind, its a solid deal for Jersey, imo.

Darth Joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 04:27 AM
  #24
coolasprICE
Registered User
 
coolasprICE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,768
vCash: 500
There's a good reason why Martin St. Louis was given a contract and retained

There's also good reason why Gonchar was let-go

MSL is a much younger 35 yr old. Probably the best conditioned athlete in the NHL. Always healthy. Leader.

Gonchar is a power play beast but the rest of his game is on decline.
He missed the equivalent of a full season combined in the last 2 years.

coolasprICE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 10:17 AM
  #25
Kriss E
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 27,314
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
There's a good reason why Martin St. Louis was given a contract and retained

There's also good reason why Gonchar was let-go

MSL is a much younger 35 yr old. Probably the best conditioned athlete in the NHL. Always healthy. Leader.

Gonchar is a power play beast but the rest of his game is on decline.
He missed the equivalent of a full season combined in the last 2 years.
So because he was injured the past two seasons, he's on the decline??
I guess Markov also is too then..
A team completely changes with or without his presence. And not any team, the Stanley Cup winning team. So no he's far from being on the decline buddy.

All of this crazy love about St-Louis we've been hearing this past year is becoming annoying. It's as if the guy did wonders for turning Stamkos into such a great player.
Stamkos would have become amazing playing with anybody. He was expected to become that good. That's why he went 1st overall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
Point production is not really what I was talking about, when it comes to St. Louis. He's a true leader with a huge heart and he's served as a great mentor to Stamkos. Sorry, but someone who can put up numbers the way he does AND at the same time present such a presence and help the future stars of the team is a very important person to retain with your team.
And how exactly is Gonchar not producing + helping his teammate through leadership???...
Wasn't he the one that took Malkin under his wing??..Crosby stayed with Lemieux while Malkin stayed with Gonchar. Teaching him english, helping him transition over from Russia, introduce him to his teammates, etc..
So what exactly did St-Louis do over him in terms of leadership?? Was Stamkos staying with St-Louis???..
People need to stop praising St-Louis for Stamkos' success.

I think your view of Gonchar is a very weak one. The man is a key player on any team, more so than St-Louis due to his position.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:40 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.