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Blockbuster Carolina / Ottawa Trade Proposal

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Old
05-23-2004, 02:05 PM
  #26
timlap
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I think this is a good example of why trades are so hard to make. Unlike many offers on these boards, I think this offer (Havlat/Phillips for O'Neill/Cole) is quite even.

People who do not see Cole and O'Neill regularly might not appreciate how good they are.

Otoh, Phillips and Havlat are really great and would be very hard for the Sens to give up.

It would take a lot of balls to make this deal, but I think it would be interesting for Ottawa.

Btw, The proposal for Kovalchuk is highly unlikely. Why in the world would Atlanta trade him?

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05-23-2004, 02:33 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlap

Btw, The proposal for Kovalchuk is highly unlikely. Why in the world would Atlanta trade him?
That's the kind of deal they need to make..I think that was an example. But they need to find a team who is willing to make a big trade like that, with Ottawa getting a big-name impact player in return. That's the only way I see Havlat being traded.

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05-23-2004, 03:46 PM
  #28
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Really, when was the last time you saw a young upper echelon player like Havlat traded for guys like Cole or O'Neil? This kind of trade just doesn't happen.

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05-23-2004, 04:49 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkplug
Really, when was the last time you saw a young upper echelon player like Havlat traded for guys like Cole or O'Neil? This kind of trade just doesn't happen.
oneill is in the same echelon as havlat - martin may surpass him in numbers in the near future, but hasnt shown oneills consistency yet. oneill played with a bad shoulder all season - he isnt in "decline". he is 28, to say havlat is out of his league is at this point premature. i agree with the age difference and havlats potential, it wouldnt be fair to trade them straight up at his point - but to say havlat is on another planet is homerism going overboard. the original deal wasnt too far off in value - the problem is that neither team would want to trade 2 such important peices at the same time, regardless of the return.

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05-23-2004, 04:54 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = Dud
However, in the near future, Cole will rapidly close the gap, as IMO, a 50/60 point powerforward with a strong two-way game, with leadership intangibles and with Stanley Cup Finals experience isn't all that much worse than a ppg winger with a relatively one sided game. I also don't see Havlat as a first liner just yet, his ppg figures may say something else, but I'd like to see him do it for a full 82 games on a more consistant base before I will label him a legit 1st line winger.
What a load of crap.

Cole, who is older then Havlat, will continue to improve until he gets to the same level that Havlat is now while the younger Havlat doesn't improve at all.

Whatever.

Cole's consistantly put up mediocre number but you project him to improve. Havlat's had one point per game season but you don't know if he can do it again. So you're saying that you think Cole will do something he's never done before while Havlat won't be able to do match what he's done at 23?

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05-23-2004, 04:59 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
So you're saying that you think Cole will do something he's never done before while Havlat won't be able to do match what he's done at 23?
in terms of cole, yes. everyone judges oneill and cole based off numbers - which is ridiculous when they play on a team as offensively inept as the canes. oneill played with a 19 year old rookie for a center, cole played with brindy, who couldnt hit water from a boat this year. the canes have been the lowest scoring team for 2 years now - the whole team is cursed, cole and oneill arent lesser players for their stats. stats dont add up to a players worth or potential, stop using them in comparison. who compares havlat and cole off nubers in the first place? they are totally different players.

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05-23-2004, 05:00 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedgreen
oneill is in the same echelon as havlat - martin may surpass him in numbers in the near future, but hasnt shown oneills consistency yet. oneill played with a bad shoulder all season - he isnt in "decline". he is 28, to say havlat is out of his league is at this point premature. i agree with the age difference and havlats potential, it wouldnt be fair to trade them straight up at his point - but to say havlat is on another planet is homerism going overboard. the original deal wasnt too far off in value - the problem is that neither team would want to trade 2 such important peices at the same time, regardless of the return.
'

Havlat's had two seasons in a row in which he produced more then O'Neill has ever produced in his career. When O'Neill was the same age Havlat was this season, he had 31 points in 75 games.

Havlat could win the scoring title in his best season. O'Neill's at an age where he probably has already had his best season (the average NHL forward peaks at 27) and he was a decent first line winger in it. Also, O'Neill makes more then twice what Havlat does. Havlat is on another planet in terms of value compared to O'Neill.

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05-23-2004, 05:06 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
'
Havlat is on another planet in terms of value compared to O'Neill.
i still dont agree, havlats a good scoring winger - but i dont think he'll lead the league yet, if at all. again, they play different styles as a player - i dont think stats are a measure of a players worth. i think they are on the same planet, you dont , fine. just dont use stats - its not a true reflection. ruslan fedotenko isnt worth either player in a trade, do you think the lightning would go back in time one week, and accept a trade for pitkanen using fedetenko? joni will go on to a much more productive career, stats laden with a possible norris trophy, and im sure the lightning wouldnt trade ruslan for anything right now. stats dont mean diddly.

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05-23-2004, 05:59 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedgreen
oneill is in the same echelon as havlat - martin may surpass him in numbers in the near future, but hasnt shown oneills consistency yet. oneill played with a bad shoulder all season - he isnt in "decline". he is 28, to say havlat is out of his league is at this point premature. i agree with the age difference and havlats potential, it wouldnt be fair to trade them straight up at his point - but to say havlat is on another planet is homerism going overboard. the original deal wasnt too far off in value - the problem is that neither team would want to trade 2 such important peices at the same time, regardless of the return.
But the deal won't happen if merely because of Havlat's raw potential. This kind of trade just doesn't happen in the NHL.

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05-23-2004, 07:17 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedgreen
in terms of cole, yes. everyone judges oneill and cole based off numbers - which is ridiculous when they play on a team as offensively inept as the canes.
I submit that since O'Neill and Cole are two of Carolina's better offensive forwards, that the Canes are offensively inept because of them, not despite them.

The Kovalchuk deal above was for illustrative purposes only, and intended to elaborate on my theory that a player of Havlat's caliber should only be dangled to trade UP on in talent, not down or laterally.

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Old
05-23-2004, 07:27 PM
  #36
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O'neill has scored over 40 goals once in his career. Whoever said he was a bonafied 30-45 goal scorer is out of their mind. In 9 NHL campaigns, he's scored 30 or above 3 times. And last year he scored 14.

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05-23-2004, 09:55 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reveille
Whoever said he was a bonafied 30-45 goal scorer is out of their mind. In 9 NHL campaigns, he's scored 30 or above 3 times. And last year he scored 14.
Jarome Iginla has only had 3 of his 8 seasons as a 70 point producer. Would it be reasonable to call him a 70 point producer?

Todd Bertuzzi has only scored over 60 points 2 times in his 9 year career. Would it be fair to call him a 60 point producer?

Markus Naslund has only scored over 40 goals 3 times in his 9 year career. Is he a 40 goal scorer in your mind?

Olli Jokinen has only scored 50 or more points 2 times in his 8 year career. Is he a 50 point producer?

I'm going to go ahead and assume that the answer to all the above questions are yes. It's about player progression when checking the value of a player. If we judged all players by their past instead of their present value there would be a lot of players that are in the upper echelon now that wouldn't be. To count years in which Jeff O'Neill was making progress as a player against him would lead one to believe that years that are counted towards making a player into a great player are wasted years. O'Neill was a late bloomer, if you will. To further illustrate my point, here are his stats from the last 3 years before his last 14 goal effort:


2000-01 Carolina Hurricanes NHL 82 41 26 67
2001-02 Carolina Hurricanes NHL 76 31 33 64
2002-03 Carolina Hurricanes NHL 82 30 31 61


Are you sure that he isn't a bonafied 30 goal scorer? Keep in mind that O'Neill managed to get the last of his 30 goal seasons with the worst offensive attack in the entire NHL. Those numbers would lead one to believe a differant story. If O'Neill isn't a 30 goal scorer, then Naslund isn't a 40 goal scorer. To count one injury ridden season against O'Neill's stock is to make a mistake. Sports fans have the shortest memory of anybody i've met and it's a total "what have you done for me lately" attitude in regards to player production.


I'm not saying he's worth Havlat, but let's get real. O'Neill isn't your run of the mill project 20 goal scorer.

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Old
05-23-2004, 11:11 PM
  #38
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I think the value is fairly close. Let's not forget O'neill's past performance, as that player still exists. He isn't over-the-hill at all. He had a lousy season on a lousy team.

I don't think, as others have said, Carolina can get rid off both of these players unless they get a bonafide scorer in another deal. They have problems netting pucks as it is. Of course, with Williams and Staal playing a full season at a year older, things may get better. Let's not forget the draft, either. This aside, they get huge upside and current ability with Havlat.

On Ottawa's side, they do lose quite a bit of potential in Havlat and what, from what I read, is a highly-regarded fan favorite in Phillips. But they get the left wing depth they need.

I say it is fair enough but it only takes one side to nix the deal and both sides have good enough reasons to do just that.

My gut feeling is that Carolina would probably do it where Ottawa may not. Throw-ins, possibly considerable ones, would likely have to be added. I think a deal like this would garner serious consideration from both sides where most proposals on here wouldn't, so kudos to the poster.

Let's not forget the mindset of Ottawa, though. Another great season met with no playoff success. Such may make Ottawa consider the deal that much more.

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Old
05-23-2004, 11:27 PM
  #39
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On further thought, I didn't say exactly what I meant, and I've changed my mind slightly at that. I think the value is skewed a substantial amount in Carolina's favor, when considering all things, particularly potential. But given the situation in Ottawa at left wing and their lack of playoff success, I think it'd be considered very strongly. They need grit and they need someone on the left.

That said I imagine Ottawa would be very careful with Havlat and could probably get a better deal for Havlat if they traded him straight up for a left winger, especially if they took on a good amount of salary.

If I was the GM, though, I'd definitely try getting a left wing without moving Havlat.

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05-23-2004, 11:41 PM
  #40
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Its slighty skewed in Carolina's favour but its not one of those deals that you can not take at face value. To best evaluate it , stand back and look at both teams after the deal. Ottawa will still be a skilled team but they'll also have a strong physical component. To me they would be more complete, much harder to match up against. In the playoffs having a bit of versatibilty can make a lot of difference. Carolina get the best player and steady but unspectacular Dman. They give up a lot of grit, but at their stage of devolpment I think they can afford it, grab the best they can get and fill in the gaps later.

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05-24-2004, 02:28 AM
  #41
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to be perfectly honest, i like the idea of bringing in both players, and dont mind letting havlat go as the principle going the other way. Adding Phillips is unacceptable, since it would create such a hole on the back end. He is one of very few we can do without, and must be here for the team to be successful. You cant make holes on your team to fill others.

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05-24-2004, 02:40 AM
  #42
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I think O'Neil would be the perfect choice for Ottawa
he can play all forward positions if i remember correctly
he's a powerforward who will get 30 goals and 60 points maybe more if paired up with Hossa or Alfredsson in Ottawa

i say it worth Havlet to get O'Neil
but drop Phillips and Cole from the deal cuz it would be a mistake to trade Phillips right now (i wish the oilers got to draft him )

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05-24-2004, 11:04 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sensfan18
I would be devistated if the sens moved Phillips, one of the most under-rated d'men in the league, IMO.
i think it is a pretty fair deal for both teams.......ottawa needs some more physical forwards and these 2 are very good.....oneil is solid....havlat didnt do anything in the playoffs and philips is a solid top 4 d-man but not a superstar....maybe throw in a 3rd or 4th rounder to ottawa.......

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05-24-2004, 11:12 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reveille
O'neill has scored over 40 goals once in his career. Whoever said he was a bonafied 30-45 goal scorer is out of their mind. In 9 NHL campaigns, he's scored 30 or above 3 times. And last year he scored 14.
WTF are you talking about? O'Neill in 3 of his 4 last seasons scored 30+ goals. That's a proven 30-40 goal scorer. Last year he was beset by injuries, and it hurt his production.

Why does what O'Neill did as a 19-20 year old impact what he's done since entering his prime?

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05-24-2004, 05:52 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HemskyFreak83
I think O'Neil would be the perfect choice for Ottawa
he can play all forward positions if i remember correctly
he's a powerforward who will get 30 goals and 60 points maybe more if paired up with Hossa or Alfredsson in Ottawa

i say it worth Havlet to get O'Neil
but drop Phillips and Cole from the deal cuz it would be a mistake to trade Phillips right now (i wish the oilers got to draft him )

Actually, I look at it the other way.
Cole has played the left side more than O'Neill. Is slightly bigger, younger and cheaper. More importantly... O'Neill's shoulder injuries bother me. As it is usually only a matter of time before power forwards break down and turn into Shayne Corson.

IMO, Ottawa would only bother trading for one of them. One guy standing in front of the net was all that was needed to make our PP effective and we didn't have him. However, there is no reason to over-compensate.

I don't like the idea of trading Havlat, but if he's not going to play LW than we might never be able to give him serious minutes. Alfie's new 5 year deal and 1st round pick Eaves (also a RW) create a bigger logjam behind Hossa.

What about

Havlat & Bonk
for
Cole, 2nd and Brind'Amour (I haven't checked contract status. I'm assuming that he's signed for 1 or 2 years)

Ottawa- gets more physical and a face-off man.
Carolina- gets younger and cheaper.

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Old
05-24-2004, 07:17 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary
Actually, I look at it the other way.
Cole has played the left side more than O'Neill. Is slightly bigger, younger and cheaper. More importantly... O'Neill's shoulder injuries bother me. As it is usually only a matter of time before power forwards break down and turn into Shayne Corson.

IMO, Ottawa would only bother trading for one of them. One guy standing in front of the net was all that was needed to make our PP effective and we didn't have him. However, there is no reason to over-compensate.

I don't like the idea of trading Havlat, but if he's not going to play LW than we might never be able to give him serious minutes. Alfie's new 5 year deal and 1st round pick Eaves (also a RW) create a bigger logjam behind Hossa.

What about

Havlat & Bonk
for
Cole, 2nd and Brind'Amour (I haven't checked contract status. I'm assuming that he's signed for 1 or 2 years)

Ottawa- gets more physical and a face-off man.
Carolina- gets younger and cheaper.
biggest issue there is that Brind'Amour has a No-Trade Clause on his contract (not sure if it's one of those "gentleman's agreements" like JR had with Hill or a real NTC)

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Old
05-25-2004, 12:23 AM
  #47
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the drop in payroll wouldnt be so significant for the canes if you take cole instead of oneill. not only do you take our best bang for the buck - we still would have to pay oneill. i agree on the talent value -but its not realistic from the canes unless oneill goes, they need to lose his salary. the only reason the canes would do drastic moves would be to lower payroll as well as acquire young talent. switch oneill for cole - and throw in a 2nd or 3rd round pick for the sens.

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05-25-2004, 12:37 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedgreen
the drop in payroll wouldnt be so significant for the canes if you take cole instead of oneill. not only do you take our best bang for the buck - we still would have to pay oneill. i agree on the talent value -but its not realistic from the canes unless oneill goes, they need to lose his salary. the only reason the canes would do drastic moves would be to lower payroll as well as acquire young talent. switch oneill for cole - and throw in a 2nd or 3rd round pick for the sens.
Any chance the pick could be a first?

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05-25-2004, 12:58 AM
  #49
bleedgreen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkplug
Any chance the pick could be a first?
if we didnt have the 8th overall, id say yes. we do have 2 seconds - the second being TO's. we also have 2 3rds. if the first was out of the top 15 - i wouldnt care as much, but a team as desperate for high level talent as the canes cant afford to let a top 10 pick get away.

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Old
06-10-2004, 10:05 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danrik
To Carolina: Martin Havlat (RW), Chris Phillips (D)
To Ottawa: Jeff O'Neill (RW), Erik Cole (LW)
No way. While value-wise it is fairly even (but I think Carolina would be getting the better end of the deal), it just doesn't make sense for the Sens. We have enough wingers. A gritty winger would be nice, but right now we need to concentrate on getting a #1 centre. It is by far the top priority. And don't even think of replying to this saying that the Sens need a #1 goalie. If you think that, then you need to read the "Lalime, goalscoring, and the playoffs" thread on the Sens board.

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