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Ilya Kovalchuk offer

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Old
07-05-2010, 03:17 PM
  #201
Larry44
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
...2-4-6 in 5 games doesn't strike me as "sucking." He was also about an inch from scoring what would have been the goal of the playoffs as far as I'm concerned. Now, he certainly had moments where he was trying way too hard and becoming a detriment to his team by not playing with his teammates, but I'm not sure "sucked" is fair.
He got some points, true, but he was billed as the difference maker and he wasn't. And now we have 3 solid D pairs to make sure he doesn't get open ice on shift changes.

What I like about this deal, from a Flyer point of view, is that it means Parise, as their best player, will look for equal compensation, and Elias is probably going to go the Gagne way.... (assuming Simon leaves).

Re: about an inch from the goal of the playoffs? Wouldn't that be Jeff Carter? Only an forehead away....

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07-05-2010, 03:20 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by decadentia View Post
We seem to be gunning for everyone available this offseason, so...sure why not..lets revisit it
I hate conspiracy theories but the one that I'd almost be willing to believe is that the Flyers have a huge, well-traveled fanbase and that is why they get attached to every FA every year. The writers just want more hits for their blog/website/etc. Hell, there are entire days on Puck Daddy where the Flyers are tagged in almost every article ran.

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07-05-2010, 03:23 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
FACT: as an offensive player, Kovalchuk is as good as he's ever going to be... and quite likely already in his production decline. It's a young man's game.
Lets face it.. All Kovalchuk needs to learn is how to pass the puck a llittle. In NJ he was doing what he was doing in Atlanta. All eyes on me kind of thing because there was noone else. He does not have to do that anymore and I do not think it will be very difficult to learn. Kovy did not look bad, he did not look lazy, he did not look out of place. He just did not score.
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Lets be clear. The transition to the salary cap era has destroyed the majority of Lou's mystique. He has not been a very good GM with the whole contract decision thing.
and how many times did he win Atlantic? Yes, his team was so-so in playoffs but he was replacing a lot of important players.

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So, yeah, **** what Lou does cuz he's kind of proven himself to be a GM that makes poor decisions in who he signs since the lockout.
He is still adjusting. Lou is a awesome hockey mind and he run his NJ just fine.

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Like, 10.25M to Rolston over the last two years for 69 points. Or the idiotic signing of Mogilny, which they only got out of because of a simply bizarre ruling by the NHL. Creating a defense with zero offensive punch. Dainus Zubrus to replace Scott Gomez.
Jester it's all fine and great but the fact is that Luo successfully was replacing key players since lock out retired Stevens, departure of Scotty, then Rafalski, the Gomez then and others Gionta.

So lets be clear. If Lou can re-sign Parise and sign Kovy and keep both happy thats a good ****ing move.

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07-05-2010, 03:30 PM
  #204
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Lets face it.. All Kovalchuk needs to learn is how to pass the puck a llittle. In NJ he was doing what he was doing in Atlanta. All eyes on me kind of thing because there was noone else. He does not have to do that anymore and I do not think it will be very difficult to learn.
...to play the way they do in NJ traditionally, he needs to do a lot more than just pass the puck.

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and how many times did he win Atlantic? Yes, his team was so-so in playoffs but he was replacing a lot of important players.
And creating a team that cannot compete in the playoffs... they've devolved from a team with a superior backline to one with a mediocre one, and he's done little to solve it... a trend which continued -- again -- thus far this offseason. Regular season success is great and all, but it don't win you championships... and most of their regular season success stems from Brodeur's consistent level of play, not the moves Lou has made since the lockout.

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He is still adjusting. Lou is a awesome hockey mind and he run his NJ just fine.
If he was such an "awesome hockey mind" then the adjustment period should probably be over by now... shouldn't take more than a year to figure out how it all works.

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Jester it's all fine and great but the fact is that Luo successfully was replacing key players since lock out retired Stevens, departure of Scotty, then Rafalski, the Gomez then and others Gionta.
What are you talking about? Stevens was never replaced... until now, when you could say Volchenkov replaces him in that mold. Rafalski and Nieds were not "replaced," they had a guy like Martin developing... who they now just lost, so lets start over on that front. Gomez wasn't replaced by anyone... cuz Zubrus isn't even remotely the offensive player that Gomez is.

Lou has been absolutely terrible in working the free agency market... which has left 'em with some tough contracts to manage as far as the production they're getting, and a team that has some notable flaws that bite 'em every year in the playoffs.

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07-05-2010, 03:30 PM
  #205
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>$3.5M on ANY goalie is a waste. Elite goalies aren't the key to winning in the cap era NHL. Sufficient goaltending, a very strong top 4 D, good special teams and scoring depth in the forward positions are what wins.

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07-05-2010, 03:31 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
Its a good contract for them. It takes him through his prime years, and is only 6 years long. The salary is high, but its what he was gonna get. If we could find way to dump Briere.....I would have been interested
I'd take Briere over Kovalchuk every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

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07-05-2010, 03:32 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
>$3.5M on ANY goalie is a waste. Elite goalies aren't the key to winning in the cap era NHL. Sufficient goaltending, a very strong top 4 D, good special teams and scoring depth in the forward positions are what wins.
Sure, but the problem there is that **** is really expensive, and therefore difficult to maintain... and you end up with Michael Leighton as your goalie.

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07-05-2010, 03:32 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
>$3.5M on ANY goalie is a waste. Elite goalies aren't the key to winning in the cap era NHL. Sufficient goaltending, a very strong top 4 D, good special teams and scoring depth in the forward positions are what wins.
Do you consider Leighton/Boucher with Backlund coming up sufficient?

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07-05-2010, 03:36 PM
  #209
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No ... but Current Flyers - Shelley - Leighton or Boucher + Ellis would have been.

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07-05-2010, 03:37 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Sure, but the problem there is that **** is really expensive, and therefore difficult to maintain... and you end up with Michael Leighton as your goalie.
We could have had all that and a credible goalie if not for Shelley and Leighton signings.

Yes, it's expensive, but that's why you can't spend $5M on a goalie.

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07-05-2010, 03:46 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
I'd take Briere over Kovalchuk every day of the week and twice on Sundays.
personally, i think that kovy is better at every part of the game than briere

id take him in a heartbeat over danny(given that salaries were relatively close)...and i love danny and hate ilya, but hes arguably the 4th/5th best forward in the world, and briere probably isnt top 20

that being said, i dont see us in the running at all, and im more than happy with danny boy

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07-05-2010, 03:48 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by sg12lw View Post
personally, i think that kovy is better at every part of the game than briere

id take him in a heartbeat over danny(given that salaries were relatively close)...and i love danny and hate ilya, but hes arguably the 4th/5th best forward in the world, and briere probably isnt top 20

that being said, i dont see us in the running at all, and im more than happy with danny boy
Kovalchuk isn't in the top 10, maybe not top 20 of players I'd want on the Flyers. Briere with his epic playoff skills is.

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07-05-2010, 03:57 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Kovalchuk isn't in the top 10, maybe not top 20 of players I'd want on the Flyers. Briere with his epic playoff skills is.
like i said i love danny and wouldnt want us to get rid of him at all

that being said, i still think kovy > briere, and its not even that close

and for the record i thought ilya was the debs best player in the playoffs, he just couldnt handle BOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!!!

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07-05-2010, 03:58 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Kovalchuk isn't in the top 10, maybe not top 20 of players I'd want on the Flyers. Briere with his epic playoff skills is.
I think when referring to top 20, he meant league wide, as opposed to Mountainhawk's man-crush list.

Kovalchuk has yet to even have a chance to display what he's capable of in the playoffs. Though there is a good chance Briere will have a more successful career in that area, he's already the known quantity (in playoffs only).

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07-05-2010, 04:03 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by decadentia View Post
I think when referring to top 20, he meant league wide, as opposed to Mountainhawk's man-crush list.

Kovalchuk has yet to even have a chance to display what he's capable of in the playoffs. Though there is a good chance Briere will have a more successful career in that area, he's already the known quantity (in playoffs only).
kovalchuk is a pure sniper

guys like that just dont get held off the board for too long, i think hed be just fine in the playoffs given a real chance

i wouldnt call him a playoff choker quite yet....guys like thornton are different, bc he relies on others to bury the passes he makes, and he is surrounded by other chokers, which makes him look even worse

p.s is there a lazier player than joe thornton in this sport??

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07-05-2010, 04:04 PM
  #216
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Briere is a .8 PPG player in the regular season AND actually jumps up to 1 PPG in the playoffs. How many players actually improve in the playoffs? That's not sample size really either, he has something like 90 GP in the playoffs

Kovalchuk is just about at a PPG, but has 1 playoff win in his career and has something like 8 pts in 9 games.

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07-05-2010, 04:11 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Briere is a .8 PPG player in the regular season AND actually jumps up to 1 PPG in the playoffs. How many players actually improve in the playoffs? That's not sample size really either, he has something like 90 GP in the playoffs

Kovalchuk is just about at a PPG, but has 1 playoff win in his career and has something like 8 pts in 9 games.
Kovalchuk is over a PPG player.

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07-05-2010, 04:31 PM
  #218
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1.03 PPG RS and postseason combined. I think that qualifies 'about a PPG'.

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07-05-2010, 04:45 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
1.03 PPG RS and postseason combined. I think that qualifies 'about a PPG'.
Actually that qualifies AS a PPG player, he's 27 and we're not dealing with a small sample size here. I just found your wording amusing, thus why I said over to exaggerate likewise...though at least mine was more accurate.

Go post a poll on whether or not Briere or Kovalchuk wins out, there's little point of anyone here trying to prove he's of any worth to you.

P.S Briere's common argument is "just about a PPG player"

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07-05-2010, 04:48 PM
  #220
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If even Kovalchuk is a better player, which I don't believe he is, he's not worth $2M more than Danny.

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07-05-2010, 04:53 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
If even Kovalchuk is a better player, which I don't believe he is, he's not worth $2M more than Danny.
He's a better player than Briere... of course, I'd want Kovalchuk on Briere's contract, not the 8.5M one we're talking about here.

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07-05-2010, 04:59 PM
  #222
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He's a better player than Briere... of course, I'd want Kovalchuk on Briere's contract, not the 8.5M one we're talking about here.
He has better stats than Briere, sure. Last 5 years Kovalchuk has put up 135 GVT, while Briere is around 123 or so (again, RS+playoffs).

However, Briere has a special quality that he's a BETTER playoff player than he is a regular season player. That's a rare talent in the NHL, and it makes him worth a lot if you are playing in the NHL and not fantasy hockey.

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07-05-2010, 05:04 PM
  #223
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I actually think that in a winning environment, Kovalchuk could really thrive.

I mean, think about his team in ATL, played with a bunch of guys who were pretty bad and for an assortment of largely terrible coaches, even Lemaire in NJ wasn't a great fit for Kovy.

I think the value of the contract is a bit high (I'd be more comfortable in the 7.5-8 range), but the fact that Kovalchuk did want to stay here instead of earning 20 mill a year does show that he has a desire to succeed and win at the highest level.

The first few years of that contract, he's going to be a real stud. Like others have mentioned though, that's a lot of coin considering Parise could now justifiably ask to get paid in the 7-7.5 range.

I also agree that generally, it doesn't make a lot of sense to invest more than 4-5 mill in a goalie unless you're locking down a perennial top-5 guy .

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07-05-2010, 05:29 PM
  #224
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I don't know. If the Devils lose Parise due to this deal, and they have 4 first round and 1 second round exits in the next 5 years, I think it's an awful contract even if Ilya puts up 450 pts in those seasons.

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07-05-2010, 06:05 PM
  #225
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I don't know. If the Devils lose Parise due to this deal, and they have 4 first round and 1 second round exits in the next 5 years, I think it's an awful contract even if Ilya puts up 450 pts in those seasons.
That I will agree with, the Devils have to be concerned with this.

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