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Would you do Theo + for Gagné & Pitkanen?

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Old
05-22-2004, 08:47 PM
  #1
plafleur10
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Would you do Theo + for Gagné & Pitkanen?

With 2 minutes left in a 2-1 7th game, if Flyers lose with their stacked team, they know the difference between losing the series and landing a berth in the Cup finals was their goaltending...

Habs are still quite not there cup-wise, Theo is costing plenty of bucks and had average playoffs after a 2nd outstanding season in 3 years, plus Habs have much cheaper and team-oriented Garon ready to step in (plus they bolstered their Goaltending depth by signing Denis), so I believe Theo might be available.

Gagné adds another local talent with unlimited potential, while Pitkanen has the size and offensive skill to become Komisarek's partner on our 1st pairing for the next 15 years...

In terms of Theo +, Breezby is fine with me...

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05-22-2004, 08:52 PM
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The Flyers would never make such a move. Pitkanen could become a Norris winner down the road and Gagné is good two-way player.

Furthermore, I'm not confident with having Garon as a number one goaltender.

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05-22-2004, 08:52 PM
  #3
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why would the flyers do that ? they would give up the future norris winner for a goalie who can't keep his team in the game during the playoffs

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05-22-2004, 09:06 PM
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Genius idea Mine was more fair, though.

http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=79296


Last edited by Rahan: 05-22-2004 at 09:20 PM.
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05-22-2004, 09:38 PM
  #5
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I am not high as some people are on Gagne.
Pitkanen is great but I would rather have Theodore in nets.

No Deal If I was Habs GM.

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05-22-2004, 09:46 PM
  #6
EaGLE1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komisarek8
I am not high as some people are on Gagne.
Pitkanen is great but I would rather have Theodore in nets.

No Deal If I was Habs GM.

Me 2.
Gagne & Pitkanen are probably overated. Malakhov (big baby with no heart) and Jonsson were better for the flyers in the playoffs.

No deal!

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05-22-2004, 09:55 PM
  #7
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lol.

You'd be lucky to get Pitkanen for Theodore.

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05-22-2004, 09:57 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafaholix
lol.

You'd be lucky to get Pitkanen for Theodore.
Never trade your star goalie. Remember Patrick Roy?? Enough Said!
And Theodore is 27, not 31!!!

That's what you think, but look at the Leafs...They are getting older & older.
Who will be the goalie after Belfour retire? Yeah, probably another old UFA on decline. You should try to get Theodore, your team need some younger players.


Last edited by EaGLE1: 05-22-2004 at 10:01 PM.
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05-22-2004, 09:58 PM
  #9
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Quote:
lol.

You'd be lucky to get Pitkanen for Theodore.
It could happen... Bobby Clarke is still the GM

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05-22-2004, 10:02 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EaGLE1
That's what you think, but look at the Leafs...They are getting older & older
What's the point of saying that? He brought a valid point: from a Flyers point of view, Pitkanen is worth more than Théodore. All you did is try to insult him.

If I look at it from a Flyers standpoint, here's what I see:

Future lockout = Leclair not coming back. Recch and Amonte might not be back. Malakhov and Desjardins might not be back. Roenick might not be back. = No chance at winning a cup.

The only point in trading for Théodore while giving two youngster is that you feel that Théodore will bring you the cup. That just won't happen.

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05-22-2004, 10:04 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HABS456
It could happen... Bobby Clarke is still the GM
While it's true that Clarke made some stupid moves (I will always remember that Oates deadline trade. ), you could argue that he redeemed himself in getting a very good deal to take Pitkanen at the #4 spot.

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05-22-2004, 10:04 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awesome`
What's the point of saying that? He brought a valid point: from a Flyers point of view, Pitkanen is worth more than Théodore. All you did is try to insult him.

If I look at it from a Flyers standpoint, here's what I see:

Future lockout = Leclair not coming back. Recch and Amonte might not be back. Malakhov and Desjardins might not be back. Roenick might not be back. = No chance at winning a cup.

The only point in trading for Théodore while giving two youngster is that you feel that Théodore will bring you the cup. That just won't happen.
I still think that Theodore worth more than Pitkanen. Goalie is the most important position in hockey (never forget that).Theodore was not bad this season. But Flyers have Esche, I think they are alright.

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05-22-2004, 10:11 PM
  #13
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Saying that Pitkanen is worth more then Theodore is one of the most ridiculous statements ever. Theodore plays the MOST imporant position in all of hockey. He has already a Vezina and Hart Attached to his name while Pitkanen still young..we don't know what he can do so far.

Saying that Pitkanen to the Flyers is worth more then Theodore to the Habs is also stupid. Wihout Theodore, Habs not in playoffs..without Pitkanen..Flyers in playoffs.
Enough Said.

That said..let's say you do the deal...Gagne ..another small forward will just come in to play with Saku,Richard,Ribeiro,Ryder with all the young guns,Hossa,Kostistsyn,Perezhogin,Higgins coming up while Pitkanen will have a spot on the D but with Garon in nets..you are still a little shaky since he didn't prove anything so far.

Btw, Theodore can get more then Pitkanen.

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05-22-2004, 10:12 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EaGLE1
I still think that Theodore worth more than Pitkanen. Goalie is the most important position in hockey (never forget that).Theodore was not bad this season. But Flyers have Esche, I think they are alright.
I didn't say that to us Pitkanen was worth more than Théodore. I said that to THEM, Pitkanen is worth more. The worth of a player in relative to the team's situation. Esche is very capable starter, they aren't needing Théodore that much. On the other hand, with future retirements, they'll be needing some good young defensemen, they already have one in Joni Pitkanen. There's no reason for trading him.

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05-22-2004, 10:18 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komisarek8
Saying that Pitkanen is worth more then Theodore is one of the most ridiculous statements ever. Theodore plays the MOST imporant position in all of hockey. He has already a Vezina and Hart Attached to his name while Pitkanen still young..we don't know what he can do so far.

Saying that Pitkanen to the Flyers is worth more then Theodore to the Habs is also stupid. Wihout Theodore, Habs not in playoffs..without Pitkanen..Flyers in playoffs.
Enough Said.

That said..let's say you do the deal...Gagne ..another small forward will just come in to play with Saku,Richard,Ribeiro,Ryder with all the young guns,Hossa,Kostistsyn,Perezhogin,Higgins coming up while Pitkanen will have a spot on the D but with Garon in nets..you are still a little shaky since he didn't prove anything so far.

Btw, Theodore can get more then Pitkanen.
1. No, it is not a stupid statement. Théodore is worth a lot to us, but so does Pitkanen to the Flyers, he is their future at the back end. They already have a capable goaltender, why would they give up their future to get one? It doesn't make sense at all. And by the way, just for the sake of it, if Théodore was on the Flyers, do you think he'd be the only reason why the reason would make the playoffs? I think not. He isn't as useful to the Flyers as he is to us because they can actually play some good defense and have a way better team overall than us.

2. You don't get the logic. The point isn't to know if Pitkanen is worth more to the Flyers than Théodore is worth the Habs. Nobody gives a damn about that. It's all about: who is worth more to the Flyers? When you might be forced to rebuild, I'd say that a potentiel Norris winner and a young 2-way player is more important than a 7M goaltender. Especially when you already have a quite good starting goalie.

Edit: I might not be as clear as I wanted to be. What I mean is that it make no sense to compare what both of these guys already bring to their teams, both teams aren't in the same situation and they don't even play the same position. You can't compare that kind of thing. However, you can guess which player would be worth more to the Flyers given to their situation. But comparing both players impact on their teams is pointless.

3. I agree that this trade might not even be that good to the Habs because we rely too much on our goaltender. I don't want Garon to be our starter, therefore I wouldn't make the deal.

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05-22-2004, 10:24 PM
  #16
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The Habs don't have enough to make a trade for Gagne and Pitkanen.

End of story.

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Old
05-22-2004, 10:26 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plafleur10
With 2 minutes left in a 2-1 7th game, if Flyers lose with their stacked team, they know the difference between losing the series and landing a berth in the Cup finals was their goaltending...
No way, you simply don't know what you're talking about. If you wanted to make a list of what caused the Flyers to not advance, the special teams, lack of scoring, injuries and just flat out being beaten by a better, younger team would rank well ahead of Esche's goaltending.

Had you actually followed the Flyers post-season, you would have known that without Esche, they wouldn't have made it this far. Aside from Primeau, he was their best player. And with Antero Niittymaki progressing very nicely, the Flyers would NEVER touch this deal.

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05-22-2004, 10:27 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EaGLE1
Never trade your star goalie. Remember Patrick Roy?? Enough Said!
And Theodore is 27, not 31!!!

That's what you think, but look at the Leafs...They are getting older & older.
Who will be the goalie after Belfour retire? Yeah, probably another old UFA on decline. You should try to get Theodore, your team need some younger players.
The next one saying that we shouldn't trade Theodore because of "look what happened with Roy" deserves to be banned.

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05-22-2004, 10:28 PM
  #19
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Without Theodore, Habs don't make playoffs.

In My earlier posts, I didn't say that as a Flyer Fan, they would do that, I was just looking at it STRICLY from a HABS POV and I don't like it one bit.

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05-22-2004, 10:32 PM
  #20
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Geez, how can someone NOT like that deal, I would jump on it and would never look back.

2 great players for a, mmm, streaky goalie.

_________

I don't see why the Flyers would do that though

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05-22-2004, 10:40 PM
  #21
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Goaltending is the most important position in hockey. But it's also much easier to acquire a good #1 then it is a #1 defenseman.

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05-22-2004, 10:52 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komisarek8
Without Theodore, Habs don't make playoffs.
So, we're not always with him. I'm tired of people like you underestimating THE TEAM. **** think about it. We have a really good team. Let's assume we sign let's say Kovalev and Ian Laperrière this summer. Do you even know what our top 12-13-14 forward could look like?

Koivu, Ribeiro, Kovalev, Zednik, Ryder, Bulis, Begin, Ward, Laperrière, Langdon, Hossa? (very skilled and nice shot), Plekanec ? (fiesty, skilled and defensive aware), Perezhogin ? (highly skilled), Higgins (also a very good player). Maybe it will even be better. Our defense? Markov, Rivet, Souray, Komisarek, Brisebois, Bouillon. IMO it's a very good top 6. I'm sorry but it's without a doubt a playoff team. The next one saying that we're not making the playoffs without Theo deserves to be banned. While I'm talking about it, we don't always make the playoffs with Theodore. He was our #1 goalie for 4 seasons. He played 59, 67, 57, 67 games in those seasons. It's about 63 games per season, about what a #1 goalie does in regular season. Out of those 4 seasons, we made the playoffs only twice. We're not making the playoffs with him either!

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05-22-2004, 10:55 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersPhantoms33
No way, you simply don't know what you're talking about. If you wanted to make a list of what caused the Flyers to not advance, the special teams, lack of scoring, injuries and just flat out being beaten by a better, younger team would rank well ahead of Esche's goaltending.

Had you actually followed the Flyers post-season, you would have known that without Esche, they wouldn't have made it this far. Aside from Primeau, he was their best player. And with Antero Niittymaki progressing very nicely, the Flyers would NEVER touch this deal.
Besides, it's not like Theodore has looked any better than Esche against Tampa Bay.

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Old
05-22-2004, 11:00 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plafleur10
With 2 minutes left in a 2-1 7th game, if Flyers lose with their stacked team, they know the difference between losing the series and landing a berth in the Cup finals was their goaltending...
I guess I have to disagree with that. I mean, I'm not a big fan of Esche, but it seemed like when he was at his worst (e.g. Game 6), the Flyers did okay anyway. He played just fine in most of their losses. I don't like his chances of being a really top-notch NHL #1 goalie, but I think he's "good enough", so long as the rest of your team plays up to its ability. And that was the problem with Philly... aside from Keith Primeau, where were the rest of their big guys up front?

What is the purpose in your trade? Do you primarily want to:
a) get rid of Theodore
b) get Gagne
c) get Pitkanen

Because I think that if you want to try to speculate a trade, you have to try and work it more closely around what the other team has and needs than your original suggestion. If the Flyers for whatever reason liked Theodore and weren't high on Esche, we'd probably still have to take Esche back in the deal. If instead we are going all out to get Pitkanen, we might have to recognise that Philly doesn't have any other stud young defensemen, and it's pretty hard to imagine how we'd get him without hurting ourselves in other areas, and that in fact they probably are pretty much satisfied with Esche and would not be very keen on "upgrading" him to Theodore at that price. Plus with all of their aging forwards and soon-to-be-free-agents, I can't see them trading Gagne either. They sort of decided between Gagne and Williams already, and now that one is gone, they can't trade both.

Theodore + Ryder + Komisarek
for
Esche + Gagne + Pitkanen

...would at least maybe balance the equation a bit, since neither team has surplus in any of the types of assets mentioned, and actually needs to replace them with the same kind of asset. Why would either GM bother, then?

I wouldn't make the above deal if I was either GM.

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05-22-2004, 11:55 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien
Theodore + Ryder + Komisarek
for
Esche + Gagne + Pitkanen

...would at least maybe balance the equation a bit, since neither team has surplus in any of the types of assets mentioned, and actually needs to replace them with the same kind of asset. Why would either GM bother, then?

I wouldn't make the above deal if I was either GM.
Jose Theodore > Robert Esche.
Michael Ryder << Simon Gagne.
Mike Komisarek <<<<< Joni Pitkanen.

Keep in mind that Ryder's had 1 good season, in 3 years I'd probably say he's worth more then Simon Gagne if he continues developing, but not right now. He's unproven.

Jose Theodore, at this point, is the better goalie. If Robert Esche continues his playoff performance into the next season and plays as well as he did vs. New Jersey and Toronto, he'll be as good as Theodore. Possibly even better.

Joni Pitkanen is arguably the best young defenseman in the world. Any team that wants him would have to drastically overpay for him... not many teams can afford that.

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