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05-24-2004, 05:40 PM
  #1
S_O_T_I
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For all the talk about trading draft picks

I was able to speak to some people about the "game plan" for draft day and I hope this might shed some light. The Rangers plan (and please remember that plans can change) is to keep all of the picks. They like the fact that there are a lot of quality kids that they think they can get in the 2nd round and they're also afraid of a lockout. Having a lot of quality prospects will put them in a good spot when the season resumes. I was told that Sather WILL look into the possibilty of trading up or down, but has NOT done so yet (from Maloney). It's much too early to even think about it (dispite some posters on this site that have said other wise). In two weeks the Ranger brass and scouts will get together and put together their list of prospects. After that they'll have a better idea of what they want to do. I have to go now so I can't respond until tomorrow.

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05-24-2004, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_O_T_I
I was able to speak to some people about the "game plan" for draft day and I hope this might shed some light. The Rangers plan (and please remember that plans can change) is to keep all of the picks. They like the fact that there are a lot of quality kids that they think they can get in the 2nd round and they're also afraid of a lockout. Having a lot of quality prospects will put them in a good spot when the season resumes. I was told that Sather WILL look into the possibilty of trading up or down, but has NOT done so yet (from Maloney). It's much too early to even think about it (dispite some posters on this site that have said other wise). In two weeks the Ranger brass and scouts will get together and put together their list of prospects. After that they'll have a better idea of what they want to do. I have to go now so I can't respond until tomorrow.
Thanks for the info! Really interesting. Keep it coming!

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05-24-2004, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_O_T_I
I was able to speak to some people about the "game plan" for draft day and I hope this might shed some light. The Rangers plan (and please remember that plans can change) is to keep all of the picks. They like the fact that there are a lot of quality kids that they think they can get in the 2nd round and they're also afraid of a lockout. Having a lot of quality prospects will put them in a good spot when the season resumes. I was told that Sather WILL look into the possibilty of trading up or down, but has NOT done so yet (from Maloney). It's much too early to even think about it (dispite some posters on this site that have said other wise). In two weeks the Ranger brass and scouts will get together and put together their list of prospects. After that they'll have a better idea of what they want to do. I have to go now so I can't respond until tomorrow.
hmm hang on let me think what to write...oh yeah!

>>

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05-24-2004, 05:51 PM
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that might be the game plan going in, but with the possiblity of certain guys falling they'd be foolish to not look for potential trades...if at the end of the day they decide it would be best to keep all the picks then fine, but i'd be disappointed if they don't talk to the teams in the 10-15 range...can't hurt to ask

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05-24-2004, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_O_T_I
I was able to speak to some people about the "game plan" for draft day and I hope this might shed some light. The Rangers plan (and please remember that plans can change) is to keep all of the picks. They like the fact that there are a lot of quality kids that they think they can get in the 2nd round and they're also afraid of a lockout. Having a lot of quality prospects will put them in a good spot when the season resumes. I was told that Sather WILL look into the possibilty of trading up or down, but has NOT done so yet (from Maloney). It's much too early to even think about it (dispite some posters on this site that have said other wise). In two weeks the Ranger brass and scouts will get together and put together their list of prospects. After that they'll have a better idea of what they want to do. I have to go now so I can't respond until tomorrow.

Did you hear about what fate awaits Poti? Will he be traded at the draft day? Or does Sather love him?

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05-24-2004, 06:09 PM
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I would be fine with staying exactly where we are in the draft. I have a strange feeling that either Barker or Olesz will fall to 6. I know alot of people here don't think we need another D-man but if Barker is at 6 I think we have to take him and then focus on forwards with the remaining picks. BTW I'm new here and I love this sight. I hope I can add a little to the sight and if I say something out of line or dumb please let me know.

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05-24-2004, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Law & Order
I would be fine with staying exactly where we are in the draft. I have a strange feeling that either Barker or Olesz will fall to 6. I know alot of people here don't think we need another D-man but if Barker is at 6 I think we have to take him and then focus on forwards with the remaining picks. BTW I'm new here and I love this sight. I hope I can add a little to the sight and if I say something out of line or dumb please let me know.
Just out of curiosity... your dad doesn't own an electronics store does he?

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05-24-2004, 06:18 PM
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welcome to the board

you should be able to enjoy yourself here.

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05-24-2004, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Barnaby
Just out of curiosity... your dad doesn't own an electronics store does he?
Nope he doesn't. Wrong guy.

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05-24-2004, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Prucha73
Did you hear about what fate awaits Poti? Will he be traded at the draft day? Or does Sather love him?
It may not matter that Sather loves or hates him. He's not untradeable in the Jagr sense, but he's a close second. There's no trading him off this team.

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05-24-2004, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by True Blue
It may not matter that Sather loves or hates him. He's not untradeable in the Jagr sense, but he's a close second. There's no trading him off this team.
Please don't state your opinions like facts. Poti IS tradeable.

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05-24-2004, 07:31 PM
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First, I'm glad to hear any news. Second, I'm glad to hear what I consider to be good news.

Some people on this board seem hell-bent to move up in the draft, even if it means trading all 5 second round picks to move up a dozen places in the first round. That may be exaggerating it just a little, but I'm glad to see that Ranger brass disagrees about the value of 2nd round prospects. I'm glad to see they think there will be real NHL prospects available after the top 20, which so many people seem to not understand.

We SHOULD inquire about moving up. If, let's say, we end up drafting Olesz at #6, and we have, say, Picard rated just below him, and Picard slips all the way into the late teens, we should be all over trying to trade up to get him. But trading up should be based on getting the particular prospect we want, and we should not overpay for the opportunity. If teams want too much, politely decline and keep what you have.

Unlike other types of trades you can make, draft-day trades of picks can almost always be broken down into winners and losers. I can't imagine a situation where you'd look at a trade of picks and say, "both teams won". The prospects you draft won't be NHL regulars for a couple years, most likely, so you can't draft based on immediate roster needs. You draft based on value. Value can be had either by paying a bargain price to move up or by getting a premium to move down. You don't get value by paying a king's ransom to move up. You lose value.

Anyway, I have one question. How does our cache of second round picks insulate us from the effects of a lockout? I don't see the connection.

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05-24-2004, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by HighlyRegardedRookie
Anyway, I have one question. How does our cache of second round picks insulate us from the effects of a lockout? I don't see the connection.
i could be terribly wrong, but i would imagine it would have something to do with the older players on the roster getting even older by the next played season, while any non-nhl players they have can continue to play in other minor leagues. having a ton of up and comers gives them future depth in case of a long lockout. again though, i'm just guessing.

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05-24-2004, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prucha73
Please don't state your opinions like facts. Poti IS tradeable.

A defenseman who does not play defense, who reportedly is an offensive defenseman who only scored 24 points last season, who is due to make 3.1M next season in an era of financial uncertainty is more or less untradable.

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05-24-2004, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by HighlyRegardedRookie
Anyway, I have one question. How does our cache of second round picks insulate us from the effects of a lockout? I don't see the connection.
im pretty sure by keeping these picks and not trading for a veteran or a younger nhl player, the rangers will have more room to manuever depending on the cap

also the more picks we have means the more prospects we have in our system, which essentially means if sather actually signs alot of the younger guys some of them will most likely be pushed up to the nhl level so the the guys who need ahl experience can get time

singn
as for poti, i think he is movable but only in a package deal, where we include him with a draft pick or two and some cash, some people on this site seem hellbent that bettman will install a hardcap and teams will be screwed, which is not the case

the cap will either be grandfathered in, maybe starting at 45 then within 2 to 3 years being at 35 million, or there may be the 2-3 player exception rule, each team having players that dont count against the cap, while teams that dont use this option get an extra draft pick in the draft, or even the nhl could just use a luxury tax for teams over the cap to go to the teams that are under the cap (something teams like NY, detroit, philly, and toronto could afford)

if this is the case, which it will be, poti will be quite movable

lastly i agree with whoever said there is no readon to trade 4-5 of our 2nd rounders plus our first to move up, we have to reason to trade more than 2 picks in any trade, the most id deal is poti, the toronto pick and a 2nd rounder to move up to the top 15, i hope sather sees it like that also

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05-24-2004, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by HighlyRegardedRookie
First, I'm glad to hear any news. Second, I'm glad to hear what I consider to be good news.

Some people on this board seem hell-bent to move up in the draft, even if it means trading all 5 second round picks to move up a dozen places in the first round. That may be exaggerating it just a little, but I'm glad to see that Ranger brass disagrees about the value of 2nd round prospects. I'm glad to see they think there will be real NHL prospects available after the top 20, which so many people seem to not understand.

We SHOULD inquire about moving up. If, let's say, we end up drafting Olesz at #6, and we have, say, Picard rated just below him, and Picard slips all the way into the late teens, we should be all over trying to trade up to get him. But trading up should be based on getting the particular prospect we want, and we should not overpay for the opportunity. If teams want too much, politely decline and keep what you have.

Unlike other types of trades you can make, draft-day trades of picks can almost always be broken down into winners and losers. I can't imagine a situation where you'd look at a trade of picks and say, "both teams won". The prospects you draft won't be NHL regulars for a couple years, most likely, so you can't draft based on immediate roster needs. You draft based on value. Value can be had either by paying a bargain price to move up or by getting a premium to move down. You don't get value by paying a king's ransom to move up. You lose value.

Anyway, I have one question. How does our cache of second round picks insulate us from the effects of a lockout? I don't see the connection.
I agree, but on the other hand we do need a top line talent, because we have plenty of depth. So if there is a chance to move up and grab a player that our scouts feel can be a top line player, then we should probably take a chance.

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05-25-2004, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Prucha73
Please don't state your opinions like facts. Poti IS tradeable.
He IS tradeable, if you are willing to take absolutely nothing in return and pick up every last cent of his contract. However, seeing as how that is not likely, Poti is not tradeable. Please see Singin's response for the reasons why.

"as for poti, i think he is movable but only in a package deal, where we include him with a draft pick or two and some cash, some people on this site seem hellbent that bettman will install a hardcap and teams will be screwed, which is not the case

the cap will either be grandfathered in, maybe starting at 45 then within 2 to 3 years being at 35 million, or there may be the 2-3 player exception rule, each team having players that dont count against the cap, while teams that dont use this option get an extra draft pick in the draft, or even the nhl could just use a luxury tax for teams over the cap to go to the teams that are under the cap (something teams like NY, detroit, philly, and toronto could afford)"

Be it a hard cap, or a luxury tax, something WILL be installed. Even if you claim that 2 or 3 players will fall under the exception rule, I would say that between Holik, Jagr, & Kasper, we have those players covered.
The salary is not even the biggest part of why he is untradeable (although it is a factor). Poti plays ZERO defense. Plus he thinks that he should not be held accountable for not playing defense. Remember the article that I posted? In it, Poti said that it is not fair that he, as an "offensive guy", be held to the same standard of defensive responsibility as that of a "defensive guy", since the "defensive guys" are not held responsible for goal scoring, like the "offensive guys".
That article was the last straw for me as far as Porta goes. The clown does not think that he should backcheck or clear the crease of rebounds and players becuase he is not a "defensive guy". Nice attitude. As Singing' says, for an "offensive" player" to have 24 points is ridiculous. Heck, we ridicule Hlavac as being an abomination last year, but even he had more points/assists than Poti did. And Poti averages a tad over 9 minutes MORE of ice time. Why would ANY team trade for him? And please do not tell me how Atlanta needs him. Hartley would have nothing to do with a player like that.
Anyway, a $3.1m contract, an aversion to contact, being an utter liability in the defensive zone and an attitude of where he feels that he should not be held accountable for being inept defensively, are all factors of why he is untradeable.

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05-25-2004, 08:57 AM
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I think you'd be surprised, TB...

what Poti can return. If he's actually used how he's supposed to be used, he'd do fine. The guy was positioned into a defensive defenseman for a while (what else do you call Leetch's partner?). When all along Poti needed to be on a second pair, not going against top lines which he often did, and be paired with a defensive defenseman, and he needed to play the PP, which he didn't always do. Had he been in that role, I don't think we'd all hate him so much, and while I don't purport to know what GMs are thinking, they have seen his flashes, which at times he can play defense too and be physical (which he was in the first 1/4-1/3 of last season), but he, along with the rest of his team, wasn't consistent (and it seems as though players away from New York seem to fit into other systems, better). Maybe I'm being a bit optimistic, but I think there's some value still there.

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05-25-2004, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Fletch
Maybe I'm being a bit optimistic, but I think there's some value still there.
It is possible that as you are being optimistic, so too am I being jaded. However, I just think that his aversion to contact and him being an utter disaster in the defensive zone were exposed too much last year. I will forever have the picture of him standing and just watching Gionta keep jabbing at a puck that Dunham had covered up. Gionta must have jabbed at it 3 or 4 times before it finally dawned on Poti that maybe he should do something. And that is not the first time. There have been countless times that an opposing player would be jabbing at Dunaham or at a loose puck and Poti would just stand by the side of the net and stare.
Wether or not he is on the 1st pairing or the 2nd pairing, going against the top lines or the checking lines, should not matter. He should make an effort to clear a rebound or 2, no? Grinders have just as easy a time with him on the ice as top-liners do.

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05-25-2004, 10:12 AM
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Poti is a good offensive defenseman and used in the correct role he is very effective, he can quaterback the powerplays

and why Trade him now? wait till the trading deadline when teams gearing up for playoff runs will pay much higher prices for him

it just doesn't make sense to trade him now unless we are getting a top 5 pick in return

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05-25-2004, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by KFC
Poti is a good offensive defenseman and used in the correct role he is very effective, he can quaterback the powerplays

and why Trade him now? wait till the trading deadline when teams gearing up for playoff runs will pay much higher prices for him

it just doesn't make sense to trade him now unless we are getting a top 5 pick in return
Look at this guy and his two posts

Seriously... Welcome.

Poti is VERY effective? He can Quarterback the PP? You're gonna have to explain this cause i didn't see the same games you watched.

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05-25-2004, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by True Blue
That article was the last straw for me as far as Porta goes. The clown does not think that he should backcheck or clear the crease of rebounds and players becuase he is not a "defensive guy". Nice attitude.
not to say that poti is the ultimate competitor, far from it, but i don't believe that quote shows that he doesn't think he should clear the crease or backcheck. believe it or not, defense is more than attitude and hard work, there is skill to it, it's just not as evident as it is with offensive ability. and he IS right to some degree, defensive players are not chastised when they don't score, so IF poti is scoring then he should be given slack on D. that being said, he is not scoring, and THAT is what we should be on his back for. let him be paired with a true defensive d-man, and i think we'll see a poti well worth $3.1 M.

i'm not against trading him, but i'm not willing to get back a stick boy in return, i just think he has more potential than that, and if this season is a rebuilding wash anyway, why not see if he can become somewhat valuable, and if not you let him go as more young guys prove they belong. as is, we seem to be counting on tyutin (who i think is a lock) and pock to make the team next year, when either or both could show up out of shape to camp, ala brendl, and then what? we've traded poti who isn't great, but was one of the only NHL caliber defensmen we had. i say wait, find him a decent partner, get a coach who instills a defensive system, and see what he can do on a real team, not the rushed tape-job teams we've had the last seven years.

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05-25-2004, 11:05 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by Sicilian
i'm not against trading him, but i'm not willing to get back a stick boy in return,
I agree. Trading him for a used jock-strap is useless. IF there is a deal to be made, one where we get value, I would not be opposed to it. But to just dump him is silly.
That said, I think that the defense of a team improves dramatically with him out of the picture.

"and he IS right to some degree, defensive players are not chastised when they don't score, so IF poti is scoring then he should be given slack on D."

That cannot be true and attutitudes like that should not be allowed. So what if he scores 100 points? That does not mean that he should be given an excuse when he refuses to clear a player who is 1 foot smaller and about 60 pounds lighter from the crease. No one in Detroit would allow Lidstrom any slack.
A perfect illustration of Poti was that Atlanta game. Yes, he emerged with something like 2 or 3 assists. However, he was directly responsible for 4 of Atlalnta's goals with bad giveaways and his refusal to backcheck. So, after all was said and done, he emerged from the game w/ a -2 rating. Now, we all know that the +/- rating system is a sham. However, it can be used as a barometer. The fact that on a nightly basis, Poti sets the other team up for more goals than his own team is pretty damming.
And now let's compare him to a player like Pock. Granted, Pock has not played all that much, but even he figured out that a quick wrister through traffic is much more effective than winding up for a big slapper than just gets blocked. It took Pock all of one period to figure that out. Poti is still waiting to make the connection. Pock also, while not a "defensive guy" and not an overall "physical" player, was not an utter liability in his own end. He used his body to seperate players from the puck. It is a toss up as to who is more physical, Poti or Putty Toms. Pock showed more to me in 6 games about being an offensive defenseman, but still diligent about defensive responsibilities than Poti has in 2 years.

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05-25-2004, 01:42 PM
  #24
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You know what TB...

that picture in your mind could also be Leetch. Would've also have been Kloucek. Was often Dale. Would've been most every Ranger defenseman we've seen in 1998, with the exception of Ulf. I'm not saying that's a great thing, but give Poti some free reign; let him skate. Let him carry the puck. Let him be active - keeping him active often results in less lapses (the Kovalev effect). Let him QB the PP. Give him a defensive defenseman, even Kaspar, as a partner. Do not have him go up against top lines. And I think the guy's value ultimately increases. I liked what I saw after Leetch had left. He was much more active. He kept the puck in very well, especially on the PP. The points weren't there, but the chances were, and over an 82 game schedule, I think more would get converted. Just my unpopular opinion (and I'm in no way a huge Poti supporter).

And TB...in regards to the 'attitude'...Leetch was afforded a pass the last several seasons. His defense was mostly abysmal, but because of his ability to take control of games, he was afforded a pass. One-on-one, Leetch is often quite easy to beat. And since Modin fractured his arm a few seasons ago, he's not nearly the shot blocker he used to be. And he lacks the crease-clearing ability in which we complain of Poti, etc., etc., etc.


Last edited by Fletch: 05-25-2004 at 01:45 PM.
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Old
05-25-2004, 01:53 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by KFC
Poti is a good offensive defenseman and used in the correct role he is very effective, he can quaterback the powerplays

and why Trade him now? wait till the trading deadline when teams gearing up for playoff runs will pay much higher prices for him

it just doesn't make sense to trade him now unless we are getting a top 5 pick in return
We need to make room for guys like Kondratiev and Pock and maybe re-sign Mironov. I don't think a defenseman that can consistantly score 10 goals per season and scored 2 consecutive OT goals would have a very low value. Many teams could use a guy like Poti and with a good coach and defensive system his defensive and physical play can improve.

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