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So after last year's success, can you tell me if the Habs have gotten better?

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Old
07-04-2010, 08:29 PM
  #76
coolasprICE
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protest ... for rebuild ...... sunday.... bell center... bring .... your own bongos...... etc

it's the same **** every year in case "you" haven't noticed... Hopefully this Eller kid is a star though, that would make me real happy

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07-04-2010, 08:36 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
No one has claimed or is claiming that it has been, however, the alarmist always paint the worst picture, when in fact the reality isn't that gloom or bleak.

The difference between the alarmists and the "apologists" is that the latter can have a discussion as to where the team needs improvement without exaggerating particulars or resorting to extreme positions and calling for everyone's head.

All I ever hear from most fans is how terrible our team is, how our management is a bucnh of clowns, yet these statements never reflect what happens in the actual games.

The habs aren't perfect, but they aren't crap either. They are headed in the right direction that's for sure. We identified a younger core with Gomez, Cammalleri, Gionta, Price, Plekanec, Markov and Subban. Also our organization have been quite active in trying to fill up our prospect pool once again with the acquisitions of Pouliot, Eller and Boyd in less than half a year. Of these three players two are first round picks, while the other was once a highly touted prospect.

Gauthier identified what the real problem was and that was a lack of depth at the forward position. Our top 6 despite what many claim was fine in the playoffs, it was our bottom 6 that had trouble contributing, they had only 9 goals in 19 games. Gauthier brought in two younger cheaper players
that not only can provide offense, but that can also fill in a spot if someone in our top 6 goes down, a privilidge we did not have last year.
you mean like saying gomez is overpaid by 1 million and kovy at 10 million would be overpaid by 7. That's a homer apologist for you, both sides exaggerate. Just because you agree with a side doesn't make them innocent.

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07-04-2010, 08:38 PM
  #78
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I'm on the fence about this subject.

On one side, it would be nice to start with a clean slate and properly build for post-lockout hockey. Sure the ECF were nice, but who are we kidding? We barely scraped through and were dominated most of the games, badly.

On the other side, we as fans never know what the season is gonna look like. For all we know, this team could put it altogether and make a crazy run for 1st and the Cup.

That is why I like to wait for the season to start, despite being against certain moves.

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07-04-2010, 08:47 PM
  #79
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Our playoff run was amazing for MANY reasons and NOT just because of Halak although he was an important part of the puzzle. CAMMY was the number one goal scorer and at very opportune times doesn't anybody remember that? GIONTA was amazing and was a secondary CAMMY. GILL and GORGES were one of the best defensive pair I have seen in a very long time. SPACEK played amazing in the playoffs when in, PLEKS was outstanding shutting down the opposition's stars while GOMEZ had some flashes of brilliance here and there but played amazing defensively. SUBBAN came in and played like a star with no experience and his addition alone is a HUGE plus to the team next year...

I think we had a 6th to 8th place in the East caliber team last year but a roster which has huge upside for playoffs as many of our players shine in the playoffs more than the regular season.

Now the question is: are we better than last year on paper with today's roster?

Just like any year, with ANY TEAM, there is a lot of what ifs? That is the nature of the game specially today in a cap world when you are limited with backup plans because of financial reasons.

Can Price be great all season and play like Halak did in the playoffs? Possibly, he certainly has the potential and a significantly better attitude than before so I think it is actually probable. Let's just hope he doesn't get injured because we no longer have the luxury of another amazing goalie (to bad we couldn't sign Ellis)

Is the defense better?

ABSOLUTELY.. We have the same one but are replacing Bergeron with Subban and I actually believe Obyrne will get better as well as he was significantly better than the previous year. Gorges learned as well and has become an amazing leader in the team. The only question mark is will Spacek, Gill and Hamrlick be worse because of their age but I don't think the difference can be that big and Gill is already slow and age won't make a player of that type regress.. After this season I believe some or all of those pieces should be replaced but I think the defense will be better this season with the added benefit of knowing each other for a year.. Let's just hope no bad injuries happen on top of Markov's

How about the offense?

A core that has jelled can only be better plus we probably won't have as many injuries. I love the fact we have more potential top 6 that are cheap with the addition of Eller and some other growing young players in Hamilton. I think AK and BP will each get at least 20 goals if not injured and Eller could potentially be a great surprise. Our bottom 6 is a question mark but I am not to worried as it is easier to replace some guys if they are not doing the job but I think we are not done there and will be equal or better.

The biggest question mark in my opinion will be the power play..

Although we are adding Subban I think that he should be the Markov of the second unit and he will make the second unit better. My problem is with the first one...

In the last 5 or 6 years the Habs biggest weapon has been that we have been a top 5 PP in most of those years. It started because of the combination of Markov, Kovalev and Souray until we lost souray. It became Makov, Kovy and Streit and went we lost Streit we had a long lasting dry spell. That is when we tried Markov on the right as the shooter because he was a lefty.. we discovered that he should not be playing that role and that is when BG got us Shneider who came in and transformed the unit with his shot. Early this year we were struggling until Bergeron arrived and that combination with Markov and Cammy was the new powerhouse because they completed each other. I am convinced that Subban can not replace souray, Streit' Schneider or Bergeron because he is a right handed shot. Funny enough i think our biggest current hole on the team is the lack of a specialist who is horrible at everything except the left handed booming precise shot. we need a guy like that so he can be cheap and fit our model but bergeron will be injured so we need to sign a replacement. With that done, I think we could have a good shot at being a better team this year. I think the loss of that specialist will cost us more in the regular season that the loss of halak but i am confident that with BG helping PG he will remind him of the past experiences and the need for a lefty specialist

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07-04-2010, 08:50 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by jamz View Post
lets lose for 5 years straight and then win a cup like pitt/chi did and then not have money to pay our stars and trade them away
I'd actually be just fine with that, ( though you're exaggerating ) need a reset on that last Cup win in 1993.

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07-04-2010, 09:17 PM
  #81
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Weaker at goaltending which this team will completely rely upon as usual. We have a decent puckmover in Subban but who knows. We are quite a bit weaker but odds are we make the playoffs and get booted first round. I predict a 7th to 10th place finish.

You are wasting your time talking to most on this forum, they will say..."wait till the season is over" or "you are so pessimistic you must want to kill yourself" blah blah blah same drivel since all they usually do is regurgitate what managment says.

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07-04-2010, 09:19 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
The habs aren't perfect, but they aren't crap either. They are headed in the right direction that's for sure.
I agree on the first point. The habs are definitely not crap.

But to me, the habs are an average team. Nothing more, nothing less. They're certainly not headed in a direction that's any better than quite a few other teams with cores made of younger, better and often cheaper players.

For them to be headed in the right direction some of those things would have to be done properly (in no particular order):

1. Development of young players

There are countless examples of young seemingly talented players who have not progressed as expected. Pacioretty, Perezhogin, Higgins, Ribeiro, Latendresse, SK, AK and Price. Either they were bad in the first place, or they had attitude problems, or circumstances were against them;there's always a "reason".

The best you can say about our ability to develop young players is that there's no evidence it's good.

2. Our ability to draft impact players

That kind ties in with #1 I guess. But I'm talking about the Myers, Del Zotto, Statsny, Giroux, etc of this world. Guys that go under the radar and end up being impact players in the NHL not long after they're drafted. So far, we did it once with Subban (hopefully). I think we need to be better with drafting dmen and forwards.

On the other hand we've always done well with our goalies.

3. Our ability to trade to improve the team

The Gomez/Pyatt trade*

The Gorges+1st for Rivet trade

The Halak for Eller trade*

*I still have problems with those two trades but let's chalk them up as good trades anyway

I'd rather separate rentals from normal trades here but if you absolutely must then you can include Moore and Kovalev as examples of amazing trades we did (sarcasm intended). I just feel rentals are completely different ball games.

That's our good important trades. Over quite a few years. I mean. Don't you find that a bit lacking ? If we're to expect more of the same, than we shouldn't expect too much help that way in the future.

4. Asset management

We have the terrible habit of making sure a player has as little value as possible before we trade them. It's something I have a hard time understanding to be honest.

Let's take SK for example. Talented young little player. Showed really good stuff in his first season. Apparently he was a head case from the start. We had a problems with him ever since. There was no way to get him on board. I'll accept that at face value. But if that's true, why did we wait so long before trading him ? If we're not ready to help a player mature and work with him individually then maybe we shouldn't hope it happens on its own be pro-active and deal the guy before he becomes a problem ?

Then we have a talented young first rounder who's put up points in a second line role and with average players and we trade him for some dude who was done in the league. Talk about wasting a perfectly good asset. Talking about Ribeiro of course.

I can understand the rotten apple thing, it's fine. But is there really no way to trade a player before his value is shot.

Latendresse is another guy that we traded way too early at the exact worst point of his career after 3 seasons of improvements. It's a guy we had planned to trade from the get go that season actually. 3 weeks into the season the habs were shopping him, if not in training camp. I mean, really ?

Another terrible example would definitely be Souray. If there was a Gorges+1st awaiting us for Rivet, don't go ahead and tell me there were no market for Souray. And if trade away a vet dman at that point in the season then we clearly weren't intending on competing either. So I mean, Souray should have been traded. Especially considering the fact we did end up missing the playoffs. If you tell me it was against the leafs in the last game then I'll tell maybe we had had Rivet against them it would have helped a little.

Anyway, those trades and non-trades wouldn't bother me as much if we could also score some juicy ones in return. Rob another GM blind like we've been robbed. Why can't we pull a move like Nashville just pulled to acquire SK? It cost them nothing and they have a potentially good young player on their hands who could turn things around. Have we gotten a player of Ribeiro's caliber in return for another GM taking our trash ? I don't know.

Some will claim our hands were tied in many cases, but you can't say we've been amazing in that department.

5. Cap space management and pro scouting

It wasn't pretty under Gainey that's for sure. I could list nearly a dozen players he overpaid or traded for after they had been overpaid. Sometimes they were small overpayment (Laraque, Dandenault, Bouillon) and sometimes big ones (Hamrlik, Gomez).

So pro scouting comes in there so we can get good role players for the minimum who are as good as the proven guys that make 1M-1.5M like Moen and thus save quite a bit over 6-7 players.

Another example of good pro scouting is Streit who happens to be a PG find. Although we did draft him, we didn't have to, and it was really a guy that got scouted while playing for switzerland. Good job there.

I'm not sure if Gauthier is better at it or if it's because he was forced to be smarter with his role players but so far I like the fact we have guys signed at near the minimum on our bottom lines and no Laraque, Dandenault, Bouillon type overpayment for marginal role players.

6. UFA signings

Honestly, besides a few blunders like Dandenault and Laraque I think we've done fairly well there.

So basically. We have to improve on some of these things if we ever want to evolve from an average team to a possible contender. Now, since it's a somewhat new GM, I shouldn't bring the past up, but then again PG was Gainey's right hand and who knows how much of the above failures/successes he is responsible for. I'm hoping Gainey was pulling all the strings, at least that would give me hope.


Quote:
Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
talk for yourself, im sure alot of people here have had good years, good games, good thrills over the past 7 seasons. People seem to forget this is a game/entertainment.

IMO i would take a closer look as to why im actually a fan. Some of you seem to be here for one reason only, to get the thrill of "winning". (Sorry to say, but its all in your head at the end of the day)


Positivity is one hell of a drug
Sad thing to hear, all the best to you
Of course there has been good moments. There's good moments for every fans of every teams.

Everyone has a breaking point though. I don't know what yours is, but I imagine if the team lost all 82 games 10-0 you'd be hard pressed to find thrills anywhere. So with all due respect, you just have lower standards when it comes to the habs than some other people. It takes less to make you happy. Good for you.

But don't go ahead and expect everyone to feel the same way and for the love of god, don't tell us how we should look at things. You do not hold the universal truth on how to be a true habs fan. Just saying.

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Old
07-04-2010, 09:21 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by pam19 View Post
Something happened during the PO.
Halak gave us a few games and we would not have won against the Caps without his extraordinary play (WAS was favorite for the cup whe PO started).

This team is stronger than what we saw last year.
Adding Subban and Eller will certainly not hurt us.
I also expect Price to have .920% or better.
Why? He may have a better % but why do you expect him to have a .920 save percentage? Seems like wishful thinking when you consider that this team plays most of the game on their own end and Price has struggled the last few years.

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07-04-2010, 09:21 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
Is it ridiculous to think Halak was the biggest reason why the Habs got as far as they did? Other players contributed, but Halak stole many games.... He's now with the Blues.
So go buy a Blues jersey and cheer for them, but you should wait until he actually signs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Are you serious? We lost Moore probably and Halak/Price>>>>>>>>>Price/auld. How can we deny we have taken a step back.
Moore??..Really..?..should we add in Metropolit as well because he produced well on PP??...
First of all, Moore is still on the market, so we might end up re-signing him. Or maybe we should go after an actual faceoff pro like Belanger.
I mean, as of today, the roster is incomplete so whining about certain pieces is ridiculous.

Halak was better than Price last year, no doubt. But if Price had the same goal support, then it would have been much closer.

So, our goalie tandem got weaker. Okay.
But our defense became better with the addition of Subban combined with the loss of MAB.
Add in the fact that our #1 Dman should not miss half the season, and that makes a significant improvement on Defense.
( Just a little fun fact, Price played twice as many games than Halak without Markov last year. And we all know, our record becomes pretty much twice as good with Andrei playing...so, just saying)

We also have set pairings in place. Something we also didn't have last year. Markov-Subban, Hamr-Spacek and Gill-Gorges (build amazing chemistry during POs).

Then we can also add the fact that we will actually start next season with a set top 6. Gomez-Gio-Pou and Plek-Cammy-A.Ko, with possibly Eller getting some chances.
That's something we didn't have until we xmas time last season.
Wouldn't you say that's also an upgrade from last year??...

Finally, we don't have 11 new players on top of a new coaching staff coming in. So, there won't be that big adaptation phase.

Don't you think that all of those FACTS combined will be more than capable to compensate for the loss of Halak and Moore???..

It seems like most fans can only see improvement by getting new players.

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Old
07-04-2010, 09:22 PM
  #85
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great post!

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07-04-2010, 09:24 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
Why? He may have a better % but why do you expect him to have a .920 save percentage? Seems like wishful thinking when you consider that this team plays most of the game on their own end and Price has struggled the last few years.
He posted a .912 this year. Is it really that far off to think he can't reach .920??
He's done it before.

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07-04-2010, 09:26 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
So go buy a Blues jersey and cheer for them, but you should wait until he actually signs.

Why do people say this? Halak was a big reason why the Habs made it as far as they did. Apparently this is too difficult for you to digest.

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07-04-2010, 09:26 PM
  #88
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Unlike Toronto, if Montréal ain't winning, people ain't paying to watch it.

Trust me, people call this fan base dedicated, but when the habs sucked late 90s, early 00's where were all of them ? Me, I was 12 and 4 hours away.

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07-04-2010, 09:28 PM
  #89
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Our playoff run was amazing and you're absolutely right -- it wasn't all due to Halak (although I think he played the biggest role). If our entire team didn't buy into the shot blocking and strong defensive play we wouldn't have made it out of the first round.

However, we can't forget that this team only made it into the playoffs by losing in overtime to the 29th ranked team in the league in game #82. Assuming the offense does not improve and that Auld will probably play around 20 games, Price will need to be even better than Halak was last year just to have a chance at reaching the playoffs. Aside from hopefully having a healthier roster, I don't see anything that suggests our offense will be better and I also don't see any reason to believe Price is suddenly going to be one of the best goalies in the NHL.
I understand your reasoning, but I have to disagree. I feel like you are analyzing it as a math problem. It's not because we lost moore and halak that Eller MUST play like moore or better... or Price MUST play as well or better than Halak because those are the only roster changes. I don't think we should look at it like that at all.

What skeptics are not taking into account, is the team chemistry, bonding. I've played on many teams for different sports... and I know that a better locker room, a more comfortable locker room, makes it much easier to find chemistry on the ice. Also, the longer you play with someone, the more you learn how they play. Our team was put together and in 1 year they (Halak along with cammy, played the biggest roles i agree) made it to the conference finals!

Because of this, I feel the TEAM will play better together. Another thing is that PK Subban played a huge role as well. We didn't have PK in the regular season. Everyone says we are overestimating his skills. Guys, whether we want to admit it or not, we finally have a blue chip prospect, and they do wonders for a team. Let's embrace it lol. With Subban we will have two very good puck movers... basically doubling from last years regular season lol.

Do people really think that Cammy will score only 26 goals this season? Do people really think Gomez is going to get only 60 pts this season? Do people really think Goaltending is more important than depth? Do people really think Price is a bust? These can't be answered right now, but really think about it... knowing the run this team had together, and how much closer they are because of it.

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07-04-2010, 09:29 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
So go buy a Blues jersey and cheer for them, but you should wait until he actually signs.



Moore??..Really..?..should we add in Metropolit as well because he produced well on PP??...
First of all, Moore is still on the market, so we might end up re-signing him. Or maybe we should go after an actual faceoff pro like Belanger.
I mean, as of today, the roster is incomplete so whining about certain pieces is ridiculous.

Halak was better than Price last year, no doubt. But if Price had the same goal support, then it would have been much closer.

So, our goalie tandem got weaker. Okay.
But our defense became better with the addition of Subban combined with the loss of MAB.
Add in the fact that our #1 Dman should not miss half the season, and that makes a significant improvement on Defense.
( Just a little fun fact, Price played twice as many games than Halak without Markov last year. And we all know, our record becomes pretty much twice as good with Andrei playing...so, just saying)

We also have set pairings in place. Something we also didn't have last year. Markov-Subban, Hamr-Spacek and Gill-Gorges (build amazing chemistry during POs).

Then we can also add the fact that we will actually start next season with a set top 6. Gomez-Gio-Pou and Plek-Cammy-A.Ko, with possibly Eller getting some chances.
That's something we didn't have until we xmas time last season.
Wouldn't you say that's also an upgrade from last year??...

Finally, we don't have 11 new players on top of a new coaching staff coming in. So, there won't be that big adaptation phase.

Don't you think that all of those FACTS combined will be more than capable to compensate for the loss of Halak and Moore???..

It seems like most fans can only see improvement by getting new players.
That is a pile of excuses, maybe it rained more last year or the fans cheered too loud or not loud enough. How about the jersies were kinda itchy for a game and they got angry at the cleaners.

Maybe one day the stars will align and every molecule in the world will be perfect and the habs can play without constant excuses for their laziness?

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07-04-2010, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
That is a pile of excuses, maybe it rained more last year or the fans cheered too loud or not loud enough. How about the jersies were kinda itchy for a game and they got angry at the cleaners.

Maybe one day the stars will align and every molecule in the world will be perfect and the habs can play without constant excuses for their laziness?
I for one hardly see that post as a list of excuses.
Looks a hell of a lot more like a list of advantages we have going into this year that we didn't have last year.

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07-04-2010, 09:45 PM
  #92
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It's funny everone that's complaining we got worse and will not make the playoffs all happened to be Halak's top fans

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07-04-2010, 09:45 PM
  #93
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who do u guys see playing on the right point of our pp next year?

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07-04-2010, 09:45 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
That is a pile of excuses, maybe it rained more last year or the fans cheered too loud or not loud enough. How about the jersies were kinda itchy for a game and they got angry at the cleaners.

Maybe one day the stars will align and every molecule in the world will be perfect and the habs can play without constant excuses for their laziness?
Injuries and whatnot occur and you have to deal. Though, Price getting less goal support was proven.

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07-04-2010, 09:47 PM
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who do u guys see playing on the right point of our pp next year?
Markov?

Subban-Markov (since Subban's right handed)

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07-04-2010, 09:49 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
you mean like saying gomez is overpaid by 1 million and kovy at 10 million would be overpaid by 7. That's a homer apologist for you, both sides exaggerate. Just because you agree with a side doesn't make them innocent.
Where did I say that in my post(about Gomez's contract) that you quoted and when did I agree with them about that particular subject...when? Maybe if you stop always quoting my posts and responding like an arrogant ******* you wouldn't sound so stupid, you know like when you said Gionta was overpaid at 5 million though he scored 37 goals in 87 games for us this year. (you think Gionta is overpaid and baseballcoach thinks Gomez's overpayment is not that bad, but you're both wrong)

All year the sky was falling and when it didn't there was always an excuse.

Habs played below .500 without Markov, they were well above it once he returned. Montreal was last in 5 on 5 scoring, but had Cammalleri, Gionta and Andrei Kostitsyn all miss 20 games. Take a team's three best goalscorers...not point producers, goal scorers and the team's goal production suffers.

Habs needed secondary scoring from their bottom lines last year, they didn't recieve it. We got younger and cheaper talent in Eller and Boyd with much more potential than Moore and Metropolit to fix that problem. Moreover, if we have an injury in the top 6 at least we have some players who can actually fill that spot now instead of plugging in Pyatt, Moen and Darche in their place.

You made excuses the entire year in regards to your position about the team. Many maintained that we should all wait until the team was healthy had a fair amount of games to build chemistry. Everyone was criticizing a team that they hadn't been seen yet, how the hell are you supposed to make a judgement? Hockey is played on the ice, not on paper.

Sure Halak helped us get further, but he wasn't alone. We held the #1 scoring team to 1 pp goal in 7 games, you goalie in not the only one responsible for that. We held Crosby and Malkin to only 1 even strength point combined in 7 games, your goalie isn't the only one that does that...ask Crosby if he liked playing against Gill, in fact his only even-strength point and only goal came when Gill missed a game because of an injury. Montreal had a 150 more blocked shots than any other team in the playoffs. Cammalleri finished as the leading playoff goal scorer despite missing an entire round. Lapierre, Moen and Moore provided timely offense in elimination games. Scott Gomez, Brian Gionta and Mike Cammalleri were all well above ppg averages when our playoff lives were on the line. They produced in every elimination game. P.K Subban stepped in during the Pittsburgh series and literally ate Markov's ice time and for a moment, he made people forget about Markov's importance.

Guys like Kriss E, Waffledave and HarryI maintained one position, they stayed patient and help their critcism to a minimal and they are one of the few posters who don't look complete fools.

The sky is always falling in Montreal, but I still have yet to see it. Montreal is a better team today than they were 3 months ago. We have more scoring depth, better puck movement on the backend with Subban and we have players like Pouliot and Pyatt who now have a year of experience under their belt. No team goes an entire season without ups and downs and no one can predict what will happen.

October is very far away. You "alarmists" have been wrong once, why don't you wait this time before saying outlandish things, maybe you won't have to make excuses for yourselves and maybe people will stop calling you out.


Last edited by Andy: 07-04-2010 at 10:00 PM.
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07-04-2010, 09:51 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
It saddens me how some fans in here are OK with winning a couple games, getting eliminated and making "Thank You" videos on Youtube. That's fine...but don't knock the fans who actually want to see their team claim the ultimate prize...which is the Stanley Cup.
Wow, listen up forest, we finished in the top 4 this year....in a very competitive league. What are you whining about? You over value the contribution of Halak in the playoffs (great goalies did not pass the first round regardless of how stelar their play was....why? because you need a full team to win in the playoff....not just one goalie)

I question your even being a habs fans....you sound like a maple leaf fan.....

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07-04-2010, 09:55 PM
  #98
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That is a pile of excuses, maybe it rained more last year or the fans cheered too loud or not loud enough. How about the jersies were kinda itchy for a game and they got angry at the cleaners.

Maybe one day the stars will align and every molecule in the world will be perfect and the habs can play without constant excuses for their laziness?
Your the only making excuses about the success. We succeeded despite all the disadvantages that Kriss E pointed out.

Kriss and a few other posters maintained the position the entire that the fan base should be patient because we had a. multiple injuries to key players. b. 11 new players and c. an entire new system.

These posters are the only ones who stayed patient and they are the only ones that don't have to make excuses for themselves.

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07-04-2010, 09:56 PM
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Here is a response I can live with. Very unbiased...although I may not agree completely, I can respect your opinion.
Thanks.

Honestly, I don't know how any Habs fan could have watched AKost and Pouliot in the playoffs, and be comfortable with the thought of both of them on our top two lines. That's just way too much unpredictable streakyness on our top two lines for my liking.

You get Frolov, you put him on a line with Cammy and Pleks, and at least you know you have one solid scoring line going each and every game. Even if Gomez and Gionta's linemate of the day is sucking it up, the Pleks/Cammy/Frolov line will still be getting it done.


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Originally Posted by E = CH˛ View Post

For them to be headed in the right direction some of those things would have to be done properly (in no particular order):

1. Development of young players

There are countless examples of young seemingly talented players who have not progressed as expected. Pacioretty, Perezhogin, Higgins, Ribeiro, Latendresse, SK, AK and Price. Either they were bad in the first place, or they had attitude problems, or circumstances were against them;there's always a "reason".

The best you can say about our ability to develop young players is that there's no evidence it's good.

2. Our ability to draft impact players

That kind ties in with #1 I guess. But I'm talking about the Myers, Del Zotto, Statsny, Giroux, etc of this world. Guys that go under the radar and end up being impact players in the NHL not long after they're drafted. So far, we did it once with Subban (hopefully). I think we need to be better with drafting dmen and forwards.

On the other hand we've always done well with our goalies.

3. Our ability to trade to improve the team

The Gomez/Pyatt trade*

The Gorges+1st for Rivet trade

The Halak for Eller trade*

*I still have problems with those two trades but let's chalk them up as good trades anyway

I'd rather separate rentals from normal trades here but if you absolutely must then you can include Moore and Kovalev as examples of amazing trades we did (sarcasm intended). I just feel rentals are completely different ball games.

That's our good important trades. Over quite a few years. I mean. Don't you find that a bit lacking ? If we're to expect more of the same, than we shouldn't expect too much help that way in the future.

4. Asset management

We have the terrible habit of making sure a player has as little value as possible before we trade them. It's something I have a hard time understanding to be honest.

Let's take SK for example. Talented young little player. Showed really good stuff in his first season. Apparently he was a head case from the start. We had a problems with him ever since. There was no way to get him on board. I'll accept that at face value. But if that's true, why did we wait so long before trading him ? If we're not ready to help a player mature and work with him individually then maybe we shouldn't hope it happens on its own be pro-active and deal the guy before he becomes a problem ?

Then we have a talented young first rounder who's put up points in a second line role and with average players and we trade him for some dude who was done in the league. Talk about wasting a perfectly good asset. Talking about Ribeiro of course.

I can understand the rotten apple thing, it's fine. But is there really no way to trade a player before his value is shot.

Latendresse is another guy that we traded way too early at the exact worst point of his career after 3 seasons of improvements. It's a guy we had planned to trade from the get go that season actually. 3 weeks into the season the habs were shopping him, if not in training camp. I mean, really ?

Another terrible example would definitely be Souray. If there was a Gorges+1st awaiting us for Rivet, don't go ahead and tell me there were no market for Souray. And if trade away a vet dman at that point in the season then we clearly weren't intending on competing either. So I mean, Souray should have been traded. Especially considering the fact we did end up missing the playoffs. If you tell me it was against the leafs in the last game then I'll tell maybe we had had Rivet against them it would have helped a little.

Anyway, those trades and non-trades wouldn't bother me as much if we could also score some juicy ones in return. Rob another GM blind like we've been robbed. Why can't we pull a move like Nashville just pulled to acquire SK? It cost them nothing and they have a potentially good young player on their hands who could turn things around. Have we gotten a player of Ribeiro's caliber in return for another GM taking our trash ? I don't know.

Some will claim our hands were tied in many cases, but you can't say we've been amazing in that department.
I'd argue that your 1 and/or 2 lead into 3 and 4. Basically, if you don't develop good young players you don't have valuable trading commodities, and you never get to trade players at good value.

SKost's value was never that high. Nor was Latendresse's or Ribeiro's.

None of these guys had a real breakout year with Montreal.

Now, I'm not saying that the three trades involving them were good (Ribeiro's was obviously horrible and Lats' looks bad right now, but frankly I don't see where headcase SKost is necessarily any better than Boyd); just that these guys never achieved high trade value, really.

Player development is probably our No. 1 weakness, as Ribeiro and Lats went on to be very good players for Dallas and Minnesota respectively.

Bad player development undermines everything else. I don't know what we have to do to fix it, but we really do need to fix it. This is especially true given how much we'll be relying on young guys next year.

I have a couple bones to pick with you, though. The Kovalev trade was an absolutely amazing trade. Getting an impact Cammy-level sniper for several years in return for a prospect that never panned out and a 2nd round pick... how is that not a complete steal of a deal, E=CH2? Come on, give Gainey some credit at least. The Kovalev trade *was* an amazing trade. No sarcasm needed whatsoever.

And the Moore deal was solid. Moore was a huge help in the playoffs.


Quote:
5. Cap space management and pro scouting

It wasn't pretty under Gainey that's for sure. I could list nearly a dozen players he overpaid or traded for after they had been overpaid. Sometimes they were small overpayment (Laraque, Dandenault, Bouillon) and sometimes big ones (Hamrlik, Gomez).
I disagree strongly with you here. Hamrlik wasn't overpaid in the beginning. He was a legit and rock solid Top 4 D for us both of his first two years in Montreal. Those guys don't come cheap. Just look at Paul Martin and his comparable contract with Pittsburgh.

Hamrlik's ideal contract length is off by a year, but that's pretty forgivable in my mind.

Overall, Gainey's cap management was excellent. We had no majorly bad contracts that we ourselves signed while Gainey was here. The only majorly bad contract was the Gomez one, and we traded for that, and we gave up little player value to get Gomez since his contract was a bad one (i.e. if his contract was better, we'd have needed to give up more to get him).


Quote:
6. UFA signings

Honestly, besides a few blunders like Dandenault and Laraque I think we've done fairly well there.
We've done great here. Cammy, Gionta, and Gill were all signings that have paid off handsomely so far.

Our main issue is simply player development.

Or drafting.

This we need to fix, and big time. The reason why Gainey relied so much on UFAs is because he had no other choice. We were not producing good young trading commodities that held much interest to other teams. Somewhere between drafting and player development, this team is really struggling. That's what we need to get to the bottom of.

Sadly, I'm not sure what needs to be done here.

Perhaps more AHL seasoning is called for. That worked for Subban (it seems), and the lack of it may have hurt Lats and Patches.

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07-04-2010, 09:58 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Sargent Pepper View Post
Wow, listen up forest, we finished in the top 4 this year....in a very competitive league. What are you whining about? You over value the contribution of Halak in the playoffs (great goalies did not pass the first round regardless of how stelar their play was....why? because you need a full team to win in the playoff....not just one goalie)

I question your even being a habs fans....you sound like a maple leaf fan.....
*sigh*

top 4? Habs were a point away from finishing near the bottom of the league. And they were the same way the year before and 2 years before that and the year before that. Do you see a trend?

You question me being a Hab fan because my expectations are higher than yours? I've heard it all

keep trying to downplay Halak's role in the playoffs. If Camm was traded, you'd do the same thing.

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