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Brayden Schenn

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Old
07-05-2010, 05:49 PM
  #51
Rorschach
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Penner had 27 goals this year...you're right. What did Brayden Schenn do? Big numbers amongst teenagers? great. For all we know, Schenn may never pan into an NHL palyer, and when you're not dealing the guys labelled as can't miss franchise players, proven is always greater than potential. Schenn isn't a can't miss franchise level prospect.
You're applying that logic way too broadly. Even if you get the label of can't miss, you can still miss. But none of that matters. Only thing that matters is market value and the value of assets between the two parties dealing.

Otherwise, trade use MPS and Eberle for Peter Harrold. Neither of those guys is can't miss franchise guy and Harrold has been playing in the NHL for a couple of years now.

- R

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Old
07-05-2010, 05:50 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by markisonfire View Post
What hasn't been mentioned yet is that the kings can't take on penner's contract. The kings have a similar player to cogliano in loktionov, just waiting to take a spot with the big club. Why would Schenn be traded? the kings are very high on him... and what has history shown us lately? In the cap era, the way to win a cup is by having a portion of your team on entry level contracts... and producing. Kings would rather keep Schenn, regardless of what everyone thinks is fair.


Cogliano > Loktionov

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Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
You're applying that logic way too broadly. Even if you get the label of can't miss, you can still miss. But none of that matters. Only thing that matters is market value and the value of assets between the two parties dealing.

Otherwise, trade use MPS and Eberle for Peter Harrold. Neither of those guys is can't miss franchise guy and Harrold has been playing in the NHL for a couple of years now.

- R
Exactly....which is why the only reason the Oilers would even consider moving Penner for Schenn is for the sake of blowing up the team.

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Old
07-05-2010, 06:03 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Penner had 27 goals this year...you're right. What did Brayden Schenn do? Big numbers amongst teenagers? great. For all we know, Schenn may never pan into an NHL palyer, and when you're not dealing the guys labelled as can't miss franchise players, proven is always greater than potential. Schenn isn't a can't miss franchise level prospect.
Hmmm... stats incorrect?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/3587

Shows 32 for me.

Schenn is a can't miss prospect and most players drafted in the top 5 generally do work out. At least post salary cap era where scouting has vastly improved.

If proven is always greater than potential, then please explain why so many teams are willing to trade proven players for draft pick? Why was Kovy moved for propsect + draft picks? Trade deadline is an expection?

Ok then why was Ballard (guess he was the biggest trade this NHL draft) move for draft pick and prospects? Why wasn't he moved for PROVEN players? Why wasn't he moved for say Cogliano (proven) but has not progressed at all in the last few years (actually he's a perfect example for you... because he's one of the few prospects who value dropped as they are more proven).

Does that mean almost all prospects in the Oiler's system are not proven except Hall (who is a franchise prospect). Give us a list so we can start doing the Burrows for XYZ proposals for you.

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07-05-2010, 06:13 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by denkiteki View Post
Hmmm... stats incorrect?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/3587

Shows 32 for me.

Schenn is a can't miss prospect and most players drafted in the top 5 generally do work out. At least post salary cap era where scouting has vastly improved.

If proven is always greater than potential, then please explain why so many teams are willing to trade proven players for draft pick? Why was Kovy moved for propsect + draft picks? Trade deadline is an expection?

Ok then why was Ballard (guess he was the biggest trade this NHL draft) move for draft pick and prospects? Why wasn't he moved for PROVEN players? Why wasn't he moved for say Cogliano (proven) but has not progressed at all in the last few years (actually he's a perfect example for you... because he's one of the few prospects who value dropped as they are more proven).

Does that mean almost all prospects in the Oiler's system are not proven except Hall (who is a franchise prospect). Give us a list so we can start doing the Burrows for XYZ proposals for you.
Both examples given are from teams that are in a rebuild and the trading partner in position to make a run for the cup.

Look at what was given in return. Pick + Prospect. PLayer + pick + prospect.

Proven always trumps potential if all else is equal.

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Old
07-05-2010, 06:18 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Absolutely... Penner is more valuable than Kadri. It's simply a case where the Leafs aren't in a position to make that kind of trade because they are relying on the long term potential of Kadri.
In Los Angeles, they aren't in a positon to trade Schenn for Penner simply because tehy have 2 fairly big wingers in Smyth & Brown; and because the addition of Penner does not make up for the loss of a potential 2nd line centre for them. That being said, Hemsky is the player that the Kings should be after; and they should look into a deal like Hemsky for Schenn or Hemsky + Cogliano for Schenn + Hickey. The oilers lose out on actual value, but get 2 players who satisfy an organizational need for them.
And the kings aren't relying on the long term potential of Brayden Schenn?
There is no way "having 2 big wingers" is THE reason why Kings can't trade Schenn. Kings can't trade Schenn because he's projected to be better than Smyth/Brown/Penner. If we use your logic, Cogliano must be more valuable than Schenn too because he has NHL experience? Despite the fact that cogliano digressed severely and hasn't lived upto potential.

You're logic only works if you're comparing B.Schenn to a player that is projected to be equal or better than him, not a player who scored a whopping 43 points a season before last season and is on the wrong side of the 20's (Penner).

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Old
07-05-2010, 06:18 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by denkiteki View Post
Hmmm... stats incorrect?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/3587

Shows 32 for me.

Schenn is a can't miss prospect and most players drafted in the top 5 generally do work out. At least post salary cap era where scouting has vastly improved.

If proven is always greater than potential, then please explain why so many teams are willing to trade proven players for draft pick? Why was Kovy moved for propsect + draft picks? Trade deadline is an expection?

Ok then why was Ballard (guess he was the biggest trade this NHL draft) move for draft pick and prospects? Why wasn't he moved for PROVEN players? Why wasn't he moved for say Cogliano (proven) but has not progressed at all in the last few years (actually he's a perfect example for you... because he's one of the few prospects who value dropped as they are more proven).

Does that mean almost all prospects in the Oiler's system are not proven except Hall (who is a franchise prospect). Give us a list so we can start doing the Burrows for XYZ proposals for you.
Schenn is not a can't miss prospect. He plays with Glennie & Calvert in Brandon and could easily find that he doesn't have the offensive ability to cut it at the NHL level. Trade deadline is an exception because it involves players who would otherwise go for nothing.

Ballard was traded because the Panthers were rebuilding; and to get him it took 2 high end prospects and a relatively young NHL winger. MPS and Eberle aren't proven; and you can start exagerrating with the Burrows-for-MPS proposals until you realize one key thing.... the Oilers are rebuilding. They place a premium on potential. The Kings are out to win now, they place the premium on proven talent.

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Old
07-05-2010, 06:20 PM
  #57
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how bout
penner
cogs
souray
dd/jdd
2nd

for
schenn
bernier
williams
stoll


and try to work out something for teubert

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Old
07-05-2010, 06:25 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by oilers84 View Post
how bout
penner
cogs
souray
dd/jdd
2nd

for
schenn
bernier
williams
stoll


and try to work out something for teubert

Nope.

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Old
07-05-2010, 06:30 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by dabeechman View Post
Schenn will be LA's 2nd line center behind Kopitar. That isn't a slight at all to Schenn. And his value is that of, if not higher than Eberle's, or MPS. Would you trade Eberle for Penner? No...

Would you trade Kadri for Penner?
Edmonton and Toronto are further behind in the development of their teams than LA is. LA is no longer in rebuilding mode -- they are in win-now mode. Toronto and Edmonton are rebuilding, so no: I would not trade either of those 2 young guys.

Anyway, perhaps some may disagree, but I think MPS is a better prospect right now than Schenn. LA may feel Schenn is more valuable to them, even if he is a lesser prospect, because they are weaker at centre in their prospect pool than on the wing.

Eberle is a far superior prospect than Schenn is, so I don't think that is even a fair comparison. Kadri may have more risk than Schenn and questionmarks about his game, but I think he has more upside. Those 2 are more comparable, but I think MPS and definitely Eberle are of higher value.

And for those who say that "LA passed on those other guys at #5 and took Schenn" means Jack ****. That is not a good argument that Schenn is better than anyone else. LA took Schenn at the time because they thought he was the BPA available -- but that doesn't mean that a year later he's the better prospect or that in the future he will be the better player. If that draft were re-done, and it goes by BPA and not need, Schenn falls out of the top 5, and maybe even out of the top 7 or 8 picks.

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Old
07-05-2010, 06:32 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
Edmonton and Toronto are further behind in the development of their teams than LA is. LA is no longer in rebuilding mode -- they are in win-now mode. Toronto and Edmonton are rebuilding, so no: I would not trade either of those 2 young guys.

Anyway, perhaps some may disagree, but I think MPS is a better prospect right now than Schenn. LA may feel Schenn is more valuable to them, even if he is a lesser prospect, because they are weaker at centre in their prospect pool than on the wing.

Eberle is a far superior prospect than Schenn is, so I don't think that is even a fair comparison. Kadri may have more risk than Schenn and questionmarks about his game, but I think he has more upside. Those 2 are more comparable, but I think MPS and definitely Eberle are of higher value.

And for those who say that "LA passed on those other guys at #5 and took Schenn" means Jack ****. That is not a good argument that Schenn is better than anyone else. LA took Schenn at the time because they thought he was the BPA available -- but that doesn't mean that a year later he's the better prospect or that in the future he will be the better player. If that draft were re-done, and it goes by BPA and not need, Schenn falls out of the top 5, and maybe even out of the top 7 or 8 picks.
Okay I'm an Oilers fan and I love Eberle but give me Schenn over Eberle 10 times a week.

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Old
07-05-2010, 06:35 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Schenn is not a can't miss prospect. He plays with Glennie & Calvert in Brandon and could easily find that he doesn't have the offensive ability to cut it at the NHL level. Trade deadline is an exception because it involves players who would otherwise go for nothing.

Ballard was traded because the Panthers were rebuilding; and to get him it took 2 high end prospects and a relatively young NHL winger. MPS and Eberle aren't proven; and you can start exagerrating with the Burrows-for-MPS proposals until you realize one key thing.... the Oilers are rebuilding. They place a premium on potential. The Kings are out to win now, they place the premium on proven talent.
2 high end prospects? Heh suddenly players the 'nucks trade away are high end prospects. Grabner had to clear waivers (guess not many knew that) starting next year with no guarantee of him making the team. He might have been the 'nucks version of Schremp next year if he doesn't make the team. Our young winger in that deal had a bad contract as he didn't play nearly as well as we had hope. He was pretty much a salary dump in the deal. As for the pick, that remains an unknown for a while.

So teams that are in win it now mode all have to trade away top talent to rebuilding teams for proven talents so they have a better chance of winning the cup? Why in the world didn't Philly trade away Giroux for a proven talent... namely a goalie? Not like he was proven going into the deadline. Until the playoffs he wasn't a proven player, just a good prospect like you said. Is he now suddenly untradable or do you still think the Fliers should trade a 20+ pt scorer in the playoffs away?

So are you now changing your theory where the Kings value Penner = Schenn where as a rebuilding team completely ignores this type of deal so you can protect all Oilers prospect from your theory that would create a ton of laughable/stupid proposals? Namely proposals that completely lowers the value of upside and prospects for proven talent? This isn't a fantasy world where team has to value players the way you want to value them. Its about fair market, if there are only 2 possible teams making a trade, then the value might shift as you expect but we are not in such a market. If proven players have as much value as you think, the Oilers wouldn't be the only rebuilding team trying to trade them away. You will have a bidding war that in turn lowers the value of Penner because every other GM in the league would see that as a laughable proposal.

Rebuilding team wants prospects but it doesn't mean the win it now team will overpay prospects (as proven by the trade deadline and the limited... or should i just ignore Jan and say 0 1st moved) for proven players. Perfect example is Hamhuis, who reportedly the 'nucks were after during the trade deadline. The return that Preds wanted? rumor to be Cody Hogs. Based on your theory, the 'nucks should have accepted but instead they rejected the deal and picked up Ham for nothing July 1st. UFA introduces another market of PROVEN players that again prevents your theory of making proven players equal top can't miss prospects.

Can you list the number of can't miss prospect moved? Or even the number of top 5 picks (drafted post salary cap era) moved for proven players? Does your theory have any source supporting it beside your words? Surely after so many years of the new salary cap era, there should be proofs of top 5 picks being moved for proven players.

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Old
07-05-2010, 06:37 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by oilers84 View Post
how bout
penner - positive value
cogs - 3rd liner value at best
souray - negative value
dd/jdd - + value
2nd + value

for
schenn - top forward prospect
bernier - top goalie prospect who fans wouldn't even trade for Carter
williams - salary dump
stoll - has some value


and try to work out something for teubert
Makes little sense for the Kings to get #1 a negative value/big salary dump in Souray, get some value in Penner and a 3rd liner (at best) in cogs + some assets for what's their #1 and #2 bluechip prospect and a salary dump.

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Old
07-05-2010, 06:40 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by BlueShirtss View Post
And the kings aren't relying on the long term potential of Brayden Schenn?
There is no way "having 2 big wingers" is THE reason why Kings can't trade Schenn. Kings can't trade Schenn because he's projected to be better than Smyth/Brown/Penner. If we use your logic, Cogliano must be more valuable than Schenn too because he has NHL experience? Despite the fact that cogliano digressed severely and hasn't lived upto potential.

You're logic only works if you're comparing B.Schenn to a player that is projected to be equal or better than him, not a player who scored a whopping 43 points a season before last season and is on the wrong side of the 20's (Penner).
I'd take Schenn way before Kadri. I honestly think Kadri will never make it over 50 points in the NHL.

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07-05-2010, 06:40 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
Edmonton and Toronto are further behind in the development of their teams than LA is. LA is no longer in rebuilding mode -- they are in win-now mode. Toronto and Edmonton are rebuilding, so no: I would not trade either of those 2 young guys.

Anyway, perhaps some may disagree, but I think MPS is a better prospect right now than Schenn. LA may feel Schenn is more valuable to them, even if he is a lesser prospect, because they are weaker at centre in their prospect pool than on the wing.

Eberle is a far superior prospect than Schenn is, so I don't think that is even a fair comparison. Kadri may have more risk than Schenn and questionmarks about his game, but I think he has more upside. Those 2 are more comparable, but I think MPS and definitely Eberle are of higher value.

And for those who say that "LA passed on those other guys at #5 and took Schenn" means Jack ****. That is not a good argument that Schenn is better than anyone else. LA took Schenn at the time because they thought he was the BPA available -- but that doesn't mean that a year later he's the better prospect or that in the future he will be the better player. If that draft were re-done, and it goes by BPA and not need, Schenn falls out of the top 5, and maybe even out of the top 7 or 8 picks.
Blah blah. That wasn't my question. The question was...value wise, who would you take. The answer is easy, you just don't want to acknowledge it.

Care to tell me why Eberle is "far superior" to Schenn? Keep in mind that Eberle is over a year older as well. Nearly identical point totals last season in the W.

They are equal if anything with most professional reports giving the edge to Schenn.

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Old
07-05-2010, 06:40 PM
  #65
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Okay I'm an Oilers fan and I love Eberle but give me Schenn over Eberle 10 times a week.
Really?

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Old
07-05-2010, 06:40 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by HemskyToHall View Post
Okay I'm an Oilers fan and I love Eberle but give me Schenn over Eberle 10 times a week.
Really? Schenn is gonna be good but Eberle has proven to be a clutch performer (WJC), also has shown he can play in the AHL (20 games, 9 G, 14 A, 23 P) and Eberle was also better at the WHL level.

Eberle>>Schenn.

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07-05-2010, 06:42 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by dabeechman View Post
Blah blah. That wasn't my question. The question was...value wise, who would you take. The answer is easy, you just don't want to acknowledge it.

Care to tell me why Eberle is "far superior" to Schenn? Keep in mind that Eberle is over a year older as well. Nearly identical point totals last season in the W.

They are equal if anything with most professional reports giving the edge to Schenn.
I'm a huge Wheat King Fan. I am also a huge Oiler fan. But Eberle didn't really have anyone to play with while Schenn was playing with alot of great players here in Brandon! Dont get me wrond Schenn is going to be a stud.

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07-05-2010, 06:44 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
Eberle is a far superior prospect than Schenn is, so I don't think that is even a fair comparison.
A lot of EDM fans seem to disagree with you...

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t...=schenn+eberle

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Old
07-05-2010, 06:45 PM
  #69
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Really?
Yes there are too many high expectations on eberle when I think he'll be a solid 2nd liner who can consistently hit 60 points. Schenn has a 1st line type potential his ceiling is higher than Eberle.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=26335516

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07-05-2010, 06:48 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
Edmonton and Toronto are further behind in the development of their teams than LA is. LA is no longer in rebuilding mode -- they are in win-now mode. Toronto and Edmonton are rebuilding, so no: I would not trade either of those 2 young guys.

Anyway, perhaps some may disagree, but I think MPS is a better prospect right now than Schenn. LA may feel Schenn is more valuable to them, even if he is a lesser prospect, because they are weaker at centre in their prospect pool than on the wing.

Eberle is a far superior prospect than Schenn is, so I don't think that is even a fair comparison. Kadri may have more risk than Schenn and questionmarks about his game, but I think he has more upside. Those 2 are more comparable, but I think MPS and definitely Eberle are of higher value.

And for those who say that "LA passed on those other guys at #5 and took Schenn" means Jack ****. That is not a good argument that Schenn is better than anyone else. LA took Schenn at the time because they thought he was the BPA available -- but that doesn't mean that a year later he's the better prospect or that in the future he will be the better player. If that draft were re-done, and it goes by BPA and not need, Schenn falls out of the top 5, and maybe even out of the top 7 or 8 picks.
Based on what? Theyre stats werent that far apart and theyre 16 months apart in age.

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Originally Posted by Gobo View Post
Really? Schenn is gonna be good but Eberle has proven to be a clutch performer (WJC), also has shown he can play in the AHL (20 games, 9 G, 14 A, 23 P) and Eberle was also better at the WHL level.

Eberle>>Schenn.
Not by much.

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07-05-2010, 06:48 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by pennerstheman View Post
I'm a huge Wheat King Fan. I am also a huge Oiler fan. But Eberle didn't really have anyone to play with while Schenn was playing with alot of great players here in Brandon! Dont get me wrond Schenn is going to be a stud.
Seguin played with no body and Hall played with many 1st rounders in 09.

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07-05-2010, 06:56 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Penner had 27 goals this year...you're right. What did Brayden Schenn do? Big numbers amongst teenagers? great. For all we know, Schenn may never pan into an NHL palyer, and when you're not dealing the guys labelled as can't miss franchise players, proven is always greater than potential. Schenn isn't a can't miss franchise level prospect.
Schenn would have been in the NHL last year as a 17/18 year old on his performance and merit during the year and in camp but they had too many centers and it didn't make sense to rush him when it wasn't needed.

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07-05-2010, 06:59 PM
  #73
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Schenn would have been in the NHL last year as a 17/18 year old on his performance and merit during the year and in camp but they had too many centers and it didn't make sense to rush him when it wasn't needed.
And if he had done so and played well.... he would have a lot more value... but he didn't so there's no reason to value him as if he did.

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Old
07-05-2010, 07:39 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by oilers84 View Post
how bout
penner
cogs
souray
dd/jdd
2nd

for
schenn
bernier
williams
stoll


and try to work out something for teubert
Dude, I live in the very heart of downtown Edmonton and that proposal is a giant facepalm. LA laughs in your face.

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Old
07-05-2010, 07:44 PM
  #75
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LA has no need to trade Schenn unless it's for a young, top 6 center.

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