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Brayden Schenn

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Old
07-05-2010, 07:50 PM
  #76
Gobo
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Originally Posted by SFKingshomer View Post
LA has no need to trade Schenn unless it's for a young, top 6 center.
So basically trading Schenn for Schenn in 1-2 years?

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07-05-2010, 07:51 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by pennerstheman View Post
I'd take Schenn way before Kadri. I honestly think Kadri will never make it over 50 points in the NHL.
I'll take Kadri over Schenn. I've seen a LOT of these two players to formulate an opinion, and in my opinion Kadri has higher ceiling offensively, which is exactly what we need.

I don't know where you're getting the "kadri won't hit 50 points" stuff from. Not a lot of people in the league will question Kadri's offensive talents. My comments about those Oilers players were to prove a point and prove B. Schenn's value. I didn't post those to "insult" the oilers players, as you're thinking.

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07-05-2010, 07:56 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by BlueShirtss View Post
I'll take Kadri over Schenn. I've seen a LOT of these two players to formulate an opinion, and in my opinion Kadri has higher ceiling offensively, which is exactly what we need.

I don't know where you're getting the "kadri won't hit 50 points" stuff from. Not a lot of people in the league will question Kadri's offensive talents. My comments about those Oilers players were to prove a point and prove B. Schenn's value. I didn't post those to "insult" the oilers players, as you're thinking.
A Leafs fan will obviously like Kadri over Schenn. I'm not a fan of both the teams and I would take Schenn anyday over Kadri!

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07-05-2010, 08:04 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by denkiteki View Post
2 high end prospects? Heh suddenly players the 'nucks trade away are high end prospects. Grabner had to clear waivers (guess not many knew that) starting next year with no guarantee of him making the team. He might have been the 'nucks version of Schremp next year if he doesn't make the team. Our young winger in that deal had a bad contract as he didn't play nearly as well as we had hope. He was pretty much a salary dump in the deal. As for the pick, that remains an unknown for a while.

So teams that are in win it now mode all have to trade away top talent to rebuilding teams for proven talents so they have a better chance of winning the cup? Why in the world didn't Philly trade away Giroux for a proven talent... namely a goalie? Not like he was proven going into the deadline. Until the playoffs he wasn't a proven player, just a good prospect like you said. Is he now suddenly untradable or do you still think the Fliers should trade a 20+ pt scorer in the playoffs away?

So are you now changing your theory where the Kings value Penner = Schenn where as a rebuilding team completely ignores this type of deal so you can protect all Oilers prospect from your theory that would create a ton of laughable/stupid proposals? Namely proposals that completely lowers the value of upside and prospects for proven talent? This isn't a fantasy world where team has to value players the way you want to value them. Its about fair market, if there are only 2 possible teams making a trade, then the value might shift as you expect but we are not in such a market. If proven players have as much value as you think, the Oilers wouldn't be the only rebuilding team trying to trade them away. You will have a bidding war that in turn lowers the value of Penner because every other GM in the league would see that as a laughable proposal.

Rebuilding team wants prospects but it doesn't mean the win it now team will overpay prospects (as proven by the trade deadline and the limited... or should i just ignore Jan and say 0 1st moved) for proven players. Perfect example is Hamhuis, who reportedly the 'nucks were after during the trade deadline. The return that Preds wanted? rumor to be Cody Hogs. Based on your theory, the 'nucks should have accepted but instead they rejected the deal and picked up Ham for nothing July 1st. UFA introduces another market of PROVEN players that again prevents your theory of making proven players equal top can't miss prospects.

Can you list the number of can't miss prospect moved? Or even the number of top 5 picks (drafted post salary cap era) moved for proven players? Does your theory have any source supporting it beside your words? Surely after so many years of the new salary cap era, there should be proofs of top 5 picks being moved for proven players.
Grabner is a high end prospect, regardless of the fact taht he had to clear waivers; and a 25th overall pick is what is... a relatively high end pick compared to the ~210 that there are every year.

Teams that are in a win-now mode have to trade talent to get talent. If they dont want to trade talent off of their NHL team, then they can chose to trade away prospects or go without said talent. Philly decided that it wasn't worth parting with Giroux, partially because they prefered to go with Boucher/Leighton who were hot.

I never said that the Kings would value Penner = Schenn. I said that objectively, a guy who scored 30 last year and 27 years old is more valuable than a prospect with great numbers in junior and 1 game NHL experience.

Trades are all about what somone is willing to pay/give up. The reason you don't see top picks moved often is because their teams usually don't get into a win-now mode before they either develop or bust.

It's not like the Oilers would be trying to dump Penner / Hemsky; they are both young, signed to fair deals, and will be instrumental to insulating the young players that the Oilers have likely coming in next year (Hall & Eberle, maybe MPS). Meanwhile, they can be around a long time incase some of those prospects don't pan out the way they hope. Is it worth parting with one of those players for Brayden Schenn? well that depends on how confident you are in Schenn's ability to develop into a solid #1-2 punch with Gagner; as well as your other prospects ability to replace him. If you believe that's close to 100%, then you problably make the deal; otherwise there's 0 reason for a team like the Oilers to trade either of them. Unlike most teams who get a 1st overall pick, the Oilers have quietly stockpiled a very solid group of young players and high end prospects.... so there really is no urgency to trade for quantity. In fact, there's a lot of ways you can justify trading either one of those players for Brayden Schenn straight up is a bad idea for the Oilers.

From the Kings side of things, they would be the initiators of any deal; where they'd be looking for established NHL talent to spend money on and increase their chances of winning this year. If they want Hemsky or Penner (without parting with roster assets of equal value), it's going to cost them Schenn. From there, they have 3 options. One is to trade Schenn, the other is to find another team who is willing to trade proven talent for less, or go without. The Oilers aren't going to lower a price on one of their 2 best forwards.

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Old
07-05-2010, 08:35 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Except your valuaing Williams + Schenn as equal to Penner + Cogliano + Peckham.

Penner = Schenn...with Penner getting the edge in actual value because he is actually an NHL PLAYER.
Cogliano + Peckham/Chorney >>> Williams....you'd be lucky to find a team to take on Williams for free.

Then again, this is hfboards....
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
I never said that the Kings would value Penner = Schenn. I said that objectively, a guy who scored 30 last year and 27 years old is more valuable than a prospect with great numbers in junior and 1 game NHL experience.
Am i missing something here? You said Penner = Schenn earlier in the day and now you claim you never said it? If you posted in a thread like this and in this context, wouldn't it imply that in your opinion from the Kings POV, you would value Penner = Schenn. The first quote was from the very first page of this thread. The only other option is its from a Edmonton POV but in this case, which realistically doesn't matter because not many Oilers fan seem to object this trade at all. Only King and non-Oiler fan think this trade sides the Oilers badly. All your posts after that post seems to be talking about how the King and win now teams want proven players... so if your first post is from a Oilers POV, it makes little sense.

Also if Grabner didn't make the team, we would need to waive him and thus get no return for him (seriously which "rebuilding team" wouldn't take a chance with him for just 50k?).. He might be a "top prospect" as you say but his value isn't equal to a top prospect (because we can't keep him) if we can't keep him. Grabner's defensive skill is not NHL ready and thus there's no way we can afford to put him on the 3rd/4th line. The chance of him making the 2nd line is fairly low (almost 0 as odds are Hogs will out play him). He was a 1st round pick but he was rated lower... most expected him to be pick in the 2nd round. He has NHL offensive skills but lack the finish last year (except a few games). But debating the trade seems rather pointless for this thread.

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Old
07-05-2010, 08:42 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by neutral zone trap13 View Post
MPS+Eberle for Schenn?
MPS is arguably more valuable then Schenn alone

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Old
07-05-2010, 08:45 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by denkiteki View Post
Am i missing something here? You said Penner = Schenn earlier in the day and now you claim you never said it? If you posted in a thread like this and in this context, wouldn't it imply that in your opinion from the Kings POV, you would value Penner = Schenn. The first quote was from the very first page of this thread. The only other option is its from a Edmonton POV but in this case, which realistically doesn't matter because not many Oilers fan seem to object this trade at all. Only King and non-Oiler fan think this trade sides the Oilers badly. All your posts after that post seems to be talking about how the King and win now teams want proven players... so if your first post is from a Oilers POV, it makes little sense.

Also if Grabner didn't make the team, we would need to waive him and thus get no return for him (seriously which "rebuilding team" wouldn't take a chance with him for just 50k?).. He might be a "top prospect" as you say but his value isn't equal to a top prospect (because we can't keep him) if we can't keep him. Grabner's defensive skill is not NHL ready and thus there's no way we can afford to put him on the 3rd/4th line. The chance of him making the 2nd line is fairly low (almost 0 as odds are Hogs will out play him). He was a 1st round pick but he was rated lower... most expected him to be pick in the 2nd round. He has NHL offensive skills but lack the finish last year (except a few games). But debating the trade seems rather pointless for this thread.
I said objectively, Penner = Schenn in terms of absolute value (i.e. not taking team needs into account). Not sure why you would assume I'm coming from either team's perspective.

As for Grabner, it doesn't change the fact that any team with cap space and prepared to give him a shot valued him at a relatively high end prospect.

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07-05-2010, 09:08 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
I said objectively, Penner = Schenn in terms of absolute value (i.e. not taking team needs into account). Not sure why you would assume I'm coming from either team's perspective.

As for Grabner, it doesn't change the fact that any team with cap space and prepared to give him a shot valued him at a relatively high end prospect.
I never mention cap space, just the cost to claim someone off waivers. His cap hit is just slightly higher than any player you can insert to the line-up. If you want to consider him a top prospect/highend/etc then you can but every fan in Vancouver had no idea what to do with both him and Raymond. Pretty much 1 of the 2 had to go unless you can assume Grabner out plays Raymond (as Raymond could play on the 3rd line due to far better 2 way game). That was 1 of the big question that got solved @ the deadline. Some fans didn't like it just because they followed Grabner for all these years. Former 1st rounder who probably has considerable less value now than when he got drafted.

Objectively? So this is the assumption that the Kings want someone proven with proven salary (not implying Penner is overpaid at all just a decent size salary) instead of young prospects who makes ELC (thus dependent on his performance too, if he doesn't produce he gets paid nothing, even if he does produce at Penner or higher level, he makes less). Go back to teams that won the cup, they had impact ELC for a reason. Young players that make huge impact on ELCs. Hawks had a couple and that bonus is now being paid this year. Fliers had ELCs and will have ELCs next year. Pens had ELCs... the list keeps on going. A team going for a cup sure wants proven talents but they don't discount the importance of ELC and players who are on ELC who can (and likely will) make a huge impact is just as important to contenders as they are to pretenders.

Proven Player for prospects/upside is pre-salary cap era talk between contenders and pretenders. Its not the talk now... every team wants good players with great contracts and generally speaking (few exceptions) few beats ELC. Penner's contract is not one that is better than a ELC... you can debate its good or bad but that isn't even in question. So i don't see how its objective at all to make this assumption. Another reason you don't see nearly as many draft pick deals for proven players during the trade deadline.

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Old
07-05-2010, 09:24 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by denkiteki View Post
I never mention cap space, just the cost to claim someone off waivers. His cap hit is just slightly higher than any player you can insert to the line-up. If you want to consider him a top prospect/highend/etc then you can but every fan in Vancouver had no idea what to do with both him and Raymond. Pretty much 1 of the 2 had to go unless you can assume Grabner out plays Raymond (as Raymond could play on the 3rd line due to far better 2 way game). That was 1 of the big question that got solved @ the deadline. Some fans didn't like it just because they followed Grabner for all these years. Former 1st rounder who probably has considerable less value now than when he got drafted.

Objectively? So this is the assumption that the Kings want someone proven with proven salary (not implying Penner is overpaid at all just a decent size salary) instead of young prospects who makes ELC (thus dependent on his performance too, if he doesn't produce he gets paid nothing, even if he does produce at Penner or higher level, he makes less). Go back to teams that won the cup, they had impact ELC for a reason. Young players that make huge impact on ELCs. Hawks had a couple and that bonus is now being paid this year. Fliers had ELCs and will have ELCs next year. Pens had ELCs... the list keeps on going. A team going for a cup sure wants proven talents but they don't discount the importance of ELC and players who are on ELC who can (and likely will) make a huge impact is just as important to contenders as they are to pretenders.

Proven Player for prospects/upside is pre-salary cap era talk between contenders and pretenders. Its not the talk now... every team wants good players with great contracts and generally speaking (few exceptions) few beats ELC. Penner's contract is not one that is better than a ELC... you can debate its good or bad but that isn't even in question. So i don't see how its objective at all to make this assumption. Another reason you don't see nearly as many draft pick deals for proven players during the trade deadline.
I'm not sure why on earth you're talking about the waiver fee.

The assumption that Kings fans have to go with is that Penner is a solution to fill a hole in their lineup for the next few years... if they do, then Schenn for Penner is the right move... if they don't, its not....simple as that.

Every team does want good players with great contracts, but the reality is that in many cases you have to choose between one or the other. The two teams would be choosing with a non-roster player on a great contract, or a roster player on a fair contract.

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07-05-2010, 09:39 PM
  #85
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I'm not sure why on earth you're talking about the waiver fee.

The assumption that Kings fans have to go with is that Penner is a solution to fill a hole in their lineup for the next few years... if they do, then Schenn for Penner is the right move... if they don't, its not....simple as that.

Every team does want good players with great contracts, but the reality is that in many cases you have to choose between one or the other. The two teams would be choosing with a non-roster player on a great contract, or a roster player on a fair contract.
To pickup someone on Waivers, you need to pay a fee to pick up that player. Think of it as an admin fee.

King fans all seem to object this proposal that you suggested. While you rather objectively or however you want to put it say that Penner = Schenn in value, i'm posting in regard to how this is false as Schenn's value is greater than Penner.

No the reality is you try to get high end prospects (like Schenn) who can make an impact on an ELC. Its not a simple case of trading a non-roster player on a great contract for a roster player on a fair contract. Its a case of trading a high end prospect (if nothing else much higher than Grabner) for a proven player on a fair contract. An ELC contract that last 3 years and in these 3 years, odds are Schenn will become a better player than Penner (not in terms of goals but in terms of points). Don't make it sound like Schenn has no chance of being on the Kings roster next year, odds are he will be on the roster and its quite likely he will be on the 2nd line (even some Kings fan suggested that in this thread). You can even make a poll to see if posters here prefer Schenn or Penner.

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07-05-2010, 09:43 PM
  #86
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Eberle has no business being compared to Schenn, Kadri, or MSP. The latter three are better prospects by far.

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07-06-2010, 01:36 AM
  #87
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Eberle has no business being compared to Schenn, Kadri, or MSP. The latter three are better prospects by far.
That's hillarious. And yes, you're alone in thinking that. For example, Eberle was ahead of all of those guys in THN's future watch. That is a publication whose rankings are based on those of ACTUAL NHL scouts/management, unlike some of these other supposed "professional reports"

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07-06-2010, 01:43 AM
  #88
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Really? Schenn is gonna be good but Eberle has proven to be a clutch performer (WJC), also has shown he can play in the AHL (20 games, 9 G, 14 A, 23 P) and Eberle was also better at the WHL level.

Eberle>>Schenn.
Brayden Schenn is still 18 years old.

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07-06-2010, 03:25 AM
  #89
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Brayden Schenn is still 18 years old.
He will be 19 in a just over a month so its really just a year+ difference.

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07-06-2010, 06:30 AM
  #90
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He will be 19 in a just over a month so its really just a year+ difference.
Still a bit of a difference in age and one where Schenn hasnt been able to play at a higher level.

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07-06-2010, 06:52 AM
  #91
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It gets annoying when people talk about how overrated a prospect is, but then make proposals to get that prospect on their team.

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07-06-2010, 09:30 AM
  #92
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That's hillarious. And yes, you're alone in thinking that. For example, Eberle was ahead of all of those guys in THN's future watch. That is a publication whose rankings are based on those of ACTUAL NHL scouts/management, unlike some of these other supposed "professional reports"
Yep, Eberle is definitely up there, and unlike the others mentioned (Kadri, MPS, B. Schenn) he's already taken the transition to pro very easily, putting up more than a PPG in the A, in both of his stints in Springfield, although they were short of course. The guy has the potential to play a Pat Kane type game, scoring and setting up guys with equal aplomb. Excited to see this guy in action next year.

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07-06-2010, 09:44 AM
  #93
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this thread is pointless.

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07-06-2010, 10:27 AM
  #94
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Welcome to HFBOARDS!

Simply put, no he's not. Schenn hasn't proven anything at the NHL level; and there is something called the first round bust. The Kings are on the verge of experiencing it with Thomas Hickey.

You can see Schenn potting 35 consistently, but I've got a little news for you. Everyone who gets drafted that high does so because some people can see them putting up that level of production.... then reality sets in and often times they don't come anywhere near that.
Schenn is no where near a bust! He just had a season of 99 points with the Wheat Kings! Penner had a miracle season this year racking up 32 goals which will never happen again. Schenn is 18 and will probably contend for the Calder Trophy when he gets to play his frist season with the kings. Penner is a big LW who plays soft. Schenn has enormous potential and is a great center who is strong on his skates and is a good 2 way player. Hickey was actually ranked much much further than what he should have been drafted. If you believe that Penner and Schenn are remotely close to each other, than you know nothing about hockey. Brayden Schenn is way better!

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07-06-2010, 10:37 AM
  #95
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this thread is pointless.
No one cares

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07-06-2010, 10:50 AM
  #96
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Schenn is no where near a bust! He just had a season of 99 points with the Wheat Kings! Penner had a miracle season this year racking up 32 goals which will never happen again. Schenn is 18 and will probably contend for the Calder Trophy when he gets to play his frist season with the kings. Penner is a big LW who plays soft. Schenn has enormous potential and is a great center who is strong on his skates and is a good 2 way player. Hickey was actually ranked much much further than what he should have been drafted. If you believe that Penner and Schenn are remotely close to each other, than you know nothing about hockey. Brayden Schenn is way better!
Where do I start?

First off miracle 32 goal seasons dont happen in the NHL. Penner was playing against the leagues top players this year and didn't have much help on his line. He also isn't soft at all! I dont know what you guys thinks soft actuallly means but Penner isn't close to it. You also really think Penner won't score 32 goals again? How can you say that when he is going to be playing with a heathly Hemsky all year most likely?

I've been watching Brayden since he joined the Wheaties. If Schenn plays his season next year in the NHL you can forget about him contending for the Calder. Good luck beating Hall, Seguin, Gudbranson, Eberle and MPS. It's just not going to happen. I think Brayden has great potential and he is going to be a great player, but he isn't going to be a star.

I forgot to mention he was of my favorite player on the Wheaties this year along with Robak!

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07-06-2010, 10:54 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by ruski17 View Post
Schenn is no where near a bust! He just had a season of 99 points with the Wheat Kings! Penner had a miracle season this year racking up 32 goals which will never happen again. Schenn is 18 and will probably contend for the Calder Trophy when he gets to play his frist season with the kings. Penner is a big LW who plays soft. Schenn has enormous potential and is a great center who is strong on his skates and is a good 2 way player. Hickey was actually ranked much much further than what he should have been drafted. If you believe that Penner and Schenn are remotely close to each other, than you know nothing about hockey. Brayden Schenn is way better!
Schenn is nowhere near a bust...yet. Nobody knows how he'll pan out long term or if he will even be an NHL player.

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07-06-2010, 11:13 AM
  #98
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I think Schenn (and Eberle and Kadri) are being overrated in this thread. In my opinion, Eberle will be a second line player...50-70 points year in, year out, but will get clutch points. Schenn isn't a second line centre...yet. He might be, but I think that's where he maxes out. He looks to me like he will end up to being similar in status to Jarret Stoll, a third line/second line centre who plays hard and can make a difference, but not a game breaker. Kadri I am not sold on. He has skill, but really reminds me of Cogliano, but with the potential to score more (better hands). 30 goals? Might happen, but I don't see him as a game breaker either. Maybe a top liner with Kessel in three or so years, but I don't see him as coming into the league and getting 50 points out of the gate. Its funny how overrated a lot of prospects are on these boards. For every top end prospect that actually develops into a top line player, there is a dozen who don't. Out of the few mentioned in this thread, I see a bunch who are probably good top six forwards, but probably not top line, unless they are riding some superior players coattails.

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07-06-2010, 11:19 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by ruski17 View Post
Schenn is no where near a bust! He just had a season of 99 points with the Wheat Kings! Penner had a miracle season this year racking up 32 goals which will never happen again. Schenn is 18 and will probably contend for the Calder Trophy when he gets to play his frist season with the kings. Penner is a big LW who plays soft. Schenn has enormous potential and is a great center who is strong on his skates and is a good 2 way player. Hickey was actually ranked much much further than what he should have been drafted. If you believe that Penner and Schenn are remotely close to each other, than you know nothing about hockey. Brayden Schenn is way better!
I need to point out some things to you here. Check out Penner's goal totals in his career. 32 goals isn't that drastic of an improvement over his rookie season, where he had 29 goals. He had 23 in somewhat limited ice time in his first year as an Oiler, and has had one awful season, his 17 goal year where he spent the entire season fighting with the coach. Penner is also not soft. He can't bang and crash as much as I would like, because the refs always seem to penalize him for big hits, but he isn't soft. He takes a beating, and delivers one too, just not as hard as some other guys do. And Brayden Schenn is not way better. He might end up being way better, that's true, he has a high ceiling. But right now, Penner is better, and that's a fact my friend. Penner is a legitimate top line power forward in the NHL, something that isn't the easiest to find, Schenn is not a top line player, he hasn't even made the team.

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07-06-2010, 12:50 PM
  #100
pennerstheman
 
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To Edm:
Schenn
Teubert

To La:
Gagner
Cogliano
2nd in 2011

Fair?

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