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Was the Pronger Trade Worth it?

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Old
07-07-2010, 07:29 PM
  #126
phillyfanatic
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
The part in bold is what people don't seem to or want to understand with respect to managing a team within the cap structure. Then again it seems that those that don't or want to understand usually give Holmgren a free pass for his cap management which has been horrid IMO.

Finally, we keep talking about how winning a cup is a team effort yet people contradict themselves and say Pronger as an individual is more important than a collection of 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounders who are still developing. Again lots of day traders here....short is the new long apparently.
Sorry us simpletons just can't get dis whole capu thingy. Glad your hear to help! Just curious, having the best defenceman in hockey for 4.9 million, is that good? It seems tome that homer has taken us to the cup and conference finals in3 years with the team. That is why he gets a pass. Until your wish comes true and the team has a horrible year, I keep the faith!

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Old
07-07-2010, 08:18 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Sorry us simpletons just can't get dis whole capu thingy. Glad your hear to help! Just curious, having the best defenceman in hockey for 4.9 million, is that good? It seems tome that homer has taken us to the cup and conference finals in3 years with the team. That is why he gets a pass. Until your wish comes true and the team has a horrible year, I keep the faith!
Leave it to the homer with his peter pan platitudes and blind faith in a GM who has shown himself to be a horrible cap manager. Seriously, do you want to engage in butt love with the guy or what? I've seen you on CSN and you're anything but objective. Here let me quote you..."I love this team"..."I love Holmgren", "I love shlong" etc etc. Dude talk about subjectivism...

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07-07-2010, 08:53 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Leave it to the homer with his peter pan platitudes and blind faith in a GM who has shown himself to be a horrible cap manager. Seriously, do you want to engage in butt love with the guy or what? I've seen you on CSN and you're anything but objective. Here let me quote you..."I love this team"..."I love Holmgren", "I love shlong" etc etc. Dude talk about subjectivism...
You keep using this phrase "blind faith" like we're a bunch of zombies who only know nothing but to believe in Homer. Granted there are ones out there, you act like everyone here who believes in Homer knows nothing about anything. Homer's had his downsides, but I without a doubt think he's done more good than bad, and has put this team in a way better position than I think Bob Clarke ever has. I'm a realist with this team, I know what's good and I know what's bad, what I like and dislike, Shelley is overpaid but we'll see how that turns out. Sucks going into the season with Leighton at this point, considering a better goalie could have been picked, but it's JULY. Off-season is far from over, and considering the constant rumors coming out involving the Flyers, there's likely a lot going on behind the scenes. Overall, I think Homer is doing a decent job, could be doing better, but not enough to be fired, especially considering his "bad cap management" has had this team in the playoffs the last 3 years, twice in the East finals (which teams like Atlanta or Florida would kill for an appearance in).

If by me having "faith" that Homer is really trying to make this team better makes me "blind," then flame away. Otherwise, as much as I often disagree with some people on HF, everyone is going to disagree on here. That's how it is. But the way you constantly come across in your posts make you sound like an ass, and considering you're new, that's not a tree you'll want to be barking up so early in your time here. Fair warning.

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07-07-2010, 09:04 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Leave it to the homer with his peter pan platitudes and blind faith in a GM who has shown himself to be a horrible cap manager. Seriously, do you want to engage in butt love with the guy or what? I've seen you on CSN and you're anything but objective. Here let me quote you..."I love this team"..."I love Holmgren", "I love shlong" etc etc. Dude talk about subjectivism...
He's Canadian according to everything in his profile, so what are you talking about?

Edit: Are you talking about another board? I'm lost.


Last edited by MsWoof: 07-07-2010 at 09:18 PM. Reason: So confused
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Old
07-07-2010, 09:09 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by DrDoom;
Leave it to the homer with his peter pan platitudes and blind faith in a GM who has shown himself to be a horrible cap manager. Seriously, do you want to engage in butt love with the guy or what? I've seen you on CSN and you're anything but objective. Here let me quote you..."I love this team"..."I love Holmgren", "I love shlong" etc etc. Dude talk about subjectivism...
you know the funny thing is, your right! I spent all last year fighting kerr 12 and guys like you who wanted to move everyone, fire homer, rip the c from richards, trade briere, etc, etc! I keep defending them as that is how I feel! Blind faith? Nope!

List of bad:
Shelley contract
knuble leaving
hartnell regular season
leighton postseason
jvr second half

list of positives:
best young captain in hockey, one of them
best d in hockey
one of the pk in hockey
great young talent in Giroux, jvr, leino, Carter, richards, carle, coburn, meszaros.
Clutch built for playoff success guys like pronger, briere, richards, leino, Giroux, kimo, coburn, odonnel
many more

I know who I am! Positive person in general..... If that offends, so be it? As for the flaming, not going there!

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07-07-2010, 09:36 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
.........

If by me having "faith" that Homer is really trying to make this team better makes me "blind," then flame away.
Otherwise, as much as I often disagree with some people on HF, everyone is going to disagree on here. That's how it is. But the way you constantly come across in your posts make you sound like an ass, and considering you're new, that's not a tree you'll want to be barking up so early in your time here. Fair warning.
I have complete confidence in Homer's intentions and his aggressive pursuit of improvement. His thinking and methods are a different story, and when a guy is aggressively pursuing poor ideas, it might as well be intentional sabotage. Best case scenario Holmgren's off-season is incomplete, and by the time it's over he will have made some moves I don't like in an attempt to move the team in a direction that at least makes sense. Worst-case scenario he's gone bat**** insane. I don't know what to think right now, honestly.

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07-07-2010, 10:04 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
I have complete confidence in Homer's intentions and his aggressive pursuit of improvement. His thinking and methods are a different story, and when a guy is aggressively pursuing poor ideas, it might as well be intentional sabotage. Best case scenario Holmgren's off-season is incomplete, and by the time it's over he will have made some moves I don't like in an attempt to move the team in a direction that at least makes sense. Worst-case scenario he's gone bat**** insane. I don't know what to think right now, honestly.
There's logic behind those moves. Homer has confidence in Leighton after lasy year's performance and wants him to start, barring no Turco. As for Shelley, he brings a game reminiscent to Flyers hockey, and with potentially Asham, Carcillo, and Powe gone, Homer needed a guarantee to have a decent enforcer. Shelley may in no form be a decent player, but he can hit and fight, and that's his role with the team.

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07-07-2010, 10:08 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
There's logic behind those moves. Homer has confidence in Leighton after lasy year's performance and wants him to start, barring no Turco. As for Shelley, he brings a game reminiscent to Flyers hockey, and with potentially Asham, Carcillo, and Powe gone, Homer needed a guarantee to have a decent enforcer. Shelley may in no form be a decent player, but he can hit and fight, and that's his role with the team.
Well... then where's the logic in inquiring about Nabokov and Turco first? Not to mention Shelley is the reason there's a problem with signing Carcillo, Powe, and/or Asham (who was gone until Carcillo filed for arbitration it seems). And while I appreciate that Shelley can muck and grind a bit (for 6 minutes a game), wouldn't you much rather have guys that can contribute 10ish goals a season over a guy that has a career high of 10 pts?

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07-07-2010, 10:13 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
There's logic behind those moves. Homer has confidence in Leighton after lasy year's performance and wants him to start, barring no Turco. As for Shelley, he brings a game reminiscent to Flyers hockey, and with potentially Asham, Carcillo, and Powe gone, Homer needed a guarantee to have a decent enforcer. Shelley may in no form be a decent player, but he can hit and fight, and that's his role with the team.
The $ with Shelley is what I am looking at really. That's either too many years or too many dollars. But that contract is the very least of my concerns with this off-season. I like Shelley's personality and I think he's going to be very good in his role, provided Laviolette uses him like an enforcer. Enforcers with coaches that don't like to use enforcers are always frustrating things to watch.

The Mezsaros trade was a bad idea in my book. Granted, I am looking at the trade in a vacuum, with no knowledge of Homer's larger plans to give it context, but I can't imagine what he could be thinking to make that a good move. We only needed a third pairing defenseman, or two coming into this off-season (Mark Eaton would've been a great solution, and cost no draft picks). Now we are over commited cap-wise to defense with a lot of forward contracts coming up.

Then there is the Gagne trade. I hate it, but there are some factors that could make it a sound move logically, if you can get over the human-side of it. But then he (presumably) goes and signs Zherdev to a multi-year deal. It's baffling. Maybe it comes together before August is over and I'll eat crow, but as of right now, it seems like shoddy work.

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07-07-2010, 10:15 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Well... then where's the logic in inquiring about Nabokov and Turco first? Not to mention Shelley is the reason there's a problem with signing Carcillo, Powe, and/or Asham (who was gone until Carcillo filed for arbitration it seems). And while I appreciate that Shelley can muck and grind a bit (for 6 minutes a game), wouldn't you much rather have guys that can contribute 10ish goals a season over a guy that has a career high of 10 pts?
Is it just me or is it far more efficient to have a hulking brute play on the defence's bottom pair than it is to plug him into a forward slot? I mean, a guy like Jason Smith or Derian Hatcher (when they both had knees) were really solid shutdown guys that could kill penalties and, even if they weren't necessarily fighters, would be able to certainly prevent the other team from acting out of hand. That also frees up the 4th line to have enough skill to not embarrass themselves and to take a regular shift in games where they are not having to kill a ton of penalties.

It just seems like a better use of assets, to me.

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07-07-2010, 10:16 PM
  #136
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We all know Paul Holmgren will die on the spot if he ever drafts in the 2nd rd. again.

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07-07-2010, 10:19 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
Is it just me or is it far more efficient to have a hulking brute play on the defence's bottom pair than it is to plug him into a forward slot? I mean, a guy like Jason Smith or Derian Hatcher (when they both had knees) were really solid shutdown guys that could kill penalties and, even if they weren't necessarily fighters, would be able to certainly prevent the other team from acting out of hand. That also frees up the 4th line to have enough skill to not embarrass themselves and to take a regular shift in games where they are not having to kill a ton of penalties.

It just seems like a better use of assets, to me.
I will preface everything with the simple philosophical statement: the "enforcer" is *ing useless in the modern NHL, and that's how I view all of this.

As to Smith and Hatcher (and some of the guys we've had around since), I like those type of guys because they can play and take on pretty much anyone below a heavyweight without embarrassing themselves. That's all you really need. The return you get from having a guy like Shelley in your lineup as far as wins and losses is pretty friggin small. There may be a few games a year where he's a factor outside of fighting some other goon just because... Great.

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07-07-2010, 10:22 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
You keep using this phrase "blind faith" like we're a bunch of zombies who only know nothing but to believe in Homer. Granted there are ones out there, you act like everyone here who believes in Homer knows nothing about anything. Homer's had his downsides, but I without a doubt think he's done more good than bad, and has put this team in a way better position than I think Bob Clarke ever has. I'm a realist with this team, I know what's good and I know what's bad, what I like and dislike, Shelley is overpaid but we'll see how that turns out. Sucks going into the season with Leighton at this point, considering a better goalie could have been picked, but it's JULY. Off-season is far from over, and considering the constant rumors coming out involving the Flyers, there's likely a lot going on behind the scenes. Overall, I think Homer is doing a decent job, could be doing better, but not enough to be fired, especially considering his "bad cap management" has had this team in the playoffs the last 3 years, twice in the East finals (which teams like Atlanta or Florida would kill for an appearance in).

If by me having "faith" that Homer is really trying to make this team better makes me "blind," then flame away. Otherwise, as much as I often disagree with some people on HF, everyone is going to disagree on here. That's how it is. But the way you constantly come across in your posts make you sound like an ass, and considering you're new, that's not a tree you'll want to be barking up so early in your time here. Fair warning.
First off are people not allowed to have dissenting controversial views on Holmgren without being accused of being a fair weathered fan? Is that not the stuff of ***** as well? I'm not on here constantly berating the guy or putting up photoshopped pictures of him. I try to offer up as much constructive criticism as possible without it turning into an illogical rant. As far as my response to phillyfanatic the flaming was over the top I will admit and emotion took over logic in that instance but I didn't appreciate his sarcasm and snarky response either. Just because you happen to agree or identify with his stance and you have been afforded the right of passage and legitimacy by your post count doesn't mean I have to accept your criticism or judgement especially when you were not even the object or part of the discussion. I realize this board operates in cliquish like fashion and "outsiders" are viewed like some kind of high school freshmen but it doesn't make it right. It also doesn't make it right to make stuff up. I'm not sure I've used "blind faith" in some kind of savant like manner as you accuse me of doing. If I've used it more than once or twice my low post count will surely confirm this false accusation. If this board wants to continue to be an echo chamber and block out dissenting views that are not to the liking of the "keepers of the forum" then that is unfortunate...

In short, I'm not here to pick fights I'm also not on here to "behave" like some kind of automaton. I came on here to talk hockey and Flyers hockey in particular. I'm no fan of Holmgren but it doesn't make me less of a fan especially considering that there seems to be a large percentage of people that don't agree with his methods. Like some have said they don't doubt his intentions which are well meaning..they just can't understand some of his decisions. I don't hate the guy..I just don't like singing his praises. If that makes me some fair weathered hater fan...I call BS considering I've followed the team for over 20+ years. Moreover, I have played hockey at the Collegiate level so I'm not approaching it from an armchair.

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07-07-2010, 10:59 PM
  #139
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Sbisa is a minor league d-man who could not make a 11th place team's roster (only 20 years old). He was ok on Philly and could be a decent pro eventually.

Lupul was a cap anchor at 4.25 for 4 more years.
Pronger is only 4.9 and change now as an elite #1 D-man.

This is all sorts of win for Philly.

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07-07-2010, 11:09 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by 0range and Black View Post
Sbisa is a minor league d-man who could not make a 11th place team's roster (only 20 years old). He was ok on Philly and could be a decent pro eventually.

Lupul was a cap anchor at 4.25 for 4 more years.
Pronger is only 4.9 and change now as an elite #1 D-man.

This is all sorts of win for Philly.
Let's not gloss over the fact that we had to sign Pronger to an over 35 contract till he was 64 to get that cap hit to 4.9. We haven't even begun to feel that yet. We also sort of skimmed over that other first rounder we sent.

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07-08-2010, 12:32 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
Let's not gloss over the fact that we had to sign Pronger to an over 35 contract till he was 64 to get that cap hit to 4.9. We haven't even begun to feel that yet. We also sort of skimmed over that other first rounder we sent.
Long deal could be painful, we shall see, hopefully we can buy our way out of it somehow when the time is right. You can always axe 2/3s with a buyout and it's not my money, Philly could easily spend over the cap if it were permitted (e.g. the NBA).

Etem is going to be good but on the flip side I imagine had we known our pick would be 29th overall Anaheim would have asked for a future pick. I am not going to cry about that, worked out well on paper and even if Etem is a stud could just be fate, dude is a local boy from Long Beach.

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07-08-2010, 01:16 AM
  #142
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Long deal could be painful, we shall see, hopefully we can buy our way out of it somehow when the time is right. You can always axe 2/3s with a buyout and it's not my money, Philly could easily spend over the cap if it were permitted (e.g. the NBA).

Etem is going to be good but on the flip side I imagine had we known our pick would be 29th overall Anaheim would have asked for a future pick. I am not going to cry about that, worked out well on paper and even if Etem is a stud could just be fate, dude is a local boy from Long Beach.
No, you can't do that with a 35+ contract.

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07-08-2010, 06:57 AM
  #143
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First off are people not allowed to have dissenting controversial views on Holmgren without being accused of being a fair weathered fan? Is that not the stuff of ***** as well? I'm not on here constantly berating the guy or putting up photoshopped pictures of him. I try to offer up as much constructive criticism as possible without it turning into an illogical rant. As far as my response to phillyfanatic the flaming was over the top I will admit and emotion took over logic in that instance but I didn't appreciate his sarcasm and snarky response either. Just because you happen to agree or identify with his stance and you have been afforded the right of passage and legitimacy by your post count doesn't mean I have to accept your criticism or judgement especially when you were not even the object or part of the discussion. I realize this board operates in cliquish like fashion and "outsiders" are viewed like some kind of high school freshmen but it doesn't make it right. It also doesn't make it right to make stuff up. I'm not sure I've used "blind faith" in some kind of savant like manner as you accuse me of doing. If I've used it more than once or twice my low post count will surely confirm this false accusation. If this board wants to continue to be an echo chamber and block out dissenting views that are not to the liking of the "keepers of the forum" then that is unfortunate...

In short, I'm not here to pick fights I'm also not on here to "behave" like some kind of automaton. I came on here to talk hockey and Flyers hockey in particular. I'm no fan of Holmgren but it doesn't make me less of a fan especially considering that there seems to be a large percentage of people that don't agree with his methods. Like some have said they don't doubt his intentions which are well meaning..they just can't understand some of his decisions. I don't hate the guy..I just don't like singing his praises. If that makes me some fair weathered hater fan...I call BS considering I've followed the team for over 20+ years. Moreover, I have played hockey at the Collegiate level so I'm not approaching it from an armchair.
First off, if you want to say that this forum is a place to block out dissenting views, I'm going to give props to Jester on this one. The guy has picked this team apart and knows every in and out of team like a mechanic putting together a new engine, and he has no problem labeling the Flyers shortcomings. This forum has been nothing but varying views since I've been here, and I'm sure since it's started. That's obviously the point of this forum. For phillyfanatic, I wasn't necessarily agreeing with him, one of the points I was trying to make was berating people isn't going to get your point across. I always follow the general belief that if you have to use the word "****" (f-word) in any argument, you've let emotion take over and you've lost the argument. The same goes for insulting people. I won't deny there are a good amount of Flyers fan "cattle being led to slaughter" but I wanted you to realize that there are many who have thought things through (myself included) who still think Homer's great. If you disagree, that's fine. But to just straight up insult and assume (which I'll admit I've done in the past and relaxed on it) is just an ignorant thing to do, but like you said sometimes you get emotional and sometimes that takes over.

I played collegiate roller hockey and switched to ice post-college, so I know where you're coming from. And it does annoy me to see people who seem to truly not understand the sport tear up stupid things (I've always been under the idea that a goalie's as good as his defense and 90% of goals give up are generally defensive mistakes, Leighton had some softies but it does get annoying sometimes to see everyone tear him apart when I watch the replay and clearly see the defense screw up).

In short, if I came across harsh, my bad. I never meant it as a straight insult, just an eye opener, and I've always been the type to come out and say it rather than talk behind your back about it. Not doubting any of your credentials, but just understand that not everyone that agrees with Homer is a mindless sheep. As for my post count comment, there is a "freshman" aspect (which I don't necessarily agree with, I've seen some smart guys hop right into this board) but I wasn't getting at that. I was getting more at how big first impressions are.

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07-08-2010, 07:33 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
First off are people not allowed to have dissenting controversial views on Holmgren without being accused of being a fair weathered fan? Is that not the stuff of ***** as well? I'm not on here constantly berating the guy or putting up photoshopped pictures of him. I try to offer up as much constructive criticism as possible without it turning into an illogical rant. As far as my response to phillyfanatic the flaming was over the top I will admit and emotion took over logic in that instance but I didn't appreciate his sarcasm and snarky response either. Just because you happen to agree or identify with his stance and you have been afforded the right of passage and legitimacy by your post count doesn't mean I have to accept your criticism or judgement especially when you were not even the object or part of the discussion. I realize this board operates in cliquish like fashion and "outsiders" are viewed like some kind of high school freshmen but it doesn't make it right. It also doesn't make it right to make stuff up. I'm not sure I've used "blind faith" in some kind of savant like manner as you accuse me of doing. If I've used it more than once or twice my low post count will surely confirm this false accusation. If this board wants to continue to be an echo chamber and block out dissenting views that are not to the liking of the "keepers of the forum" then that is unfortunate...

In short, I'm not here to pick fights I'm also not on here to "behave" like some kind of automaton. I came on here to talk hockey and Flyers hockey in particular. I'm no fan of Holmgren but it doesn't make me less of a fan especially considering that there seems to be a large percentage of people that don't agree with his methods. Like some have said they don't doubt his intentions which are well meaning..they just can't understand some of his decisions. I don't hate the guy..I just don't like singing his praises. If that makes me some fair weathered hater fan...I call BS considering I've followed the team for over 20+ years. Moreover, I have played hockey at the Collegiate level so I'm not approaching it from an armchair.
So is that an apology to someone else for ripping me to shreads? I re-read my post to you and it was sarcastic yes, but you were ripping people like me who support Homer as cap morons. I might have been sarcastic, but come on - if that is all it takes to get that kind of response, you might have trouble containing yourself here. I apologize if my response offended, I was merely trying to point out that some of us do understand the cap and also support some of Homers decisions. You can be both.

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07-08-2010, 07:37 AM
  #145
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You did not win the Stanley cup, therefore the trade wasn't worth it.

Chris Pronger is overrated, and who knows, Sbisa may turn out to be the next Lidstrom. Shall i remind you that this kind of trade only work if you win the Stanley Cup, you didn't, therefore you got own.

In 3 or 4 years, it will be the Ducks who will compete for the cups as for Pronger, he's skills will deteriorate by this time.

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07-08-2010, 09:08 AM
  #146
Flyskippy
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Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
Anyone who thinks this trade wasn't worth it, I have this for you:

I love Scrubs.

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07-08-2010, 09:18 AM
  #147
JVR21
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Sorry us simpletons just can't get dis whole capu thingy. Glad your hear to help! Just curious, having the best defenceman in hockey for 4.9 million, is that good? It seems tome that homer has taken us to the cup and conference finals in3 years with the team. That is why he gets a pass. Until your wish comes true and the team has a horrible year, I keep the faith!
You obviously don't understand a thing.....

Will it be good to have Pronger in 6 years when he's a shell of what he is now for a $4.9 cap hit? Either that or he retires and we still have the hit...

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07-08-2010, 10:13 AM
  #148
Giroux tha Damaja
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Originally Posted by TheNextOneX View Post
You did not win the Stanley cup, therefore the trade wasn't worth it.
The window of opportunity hasn't quite closed on us yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNextOneX View Post
Chris Pronger is overrated, and who knows, Sbisa may turn out to be the next Lidstrom. Shall I remind you that this kind of trade only work if you win the Stanley Cup, you didn't, therefore you got own.
No.

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Originally Posted by TheNextOneX View Post
In 3 or 4 years, it will be the Ducks who will compete for the cups as for Pronger, he's skills will deteriorate by this time.
More HFBoards chronic futurism.

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07-08-2010, 10:14 AM
  #149
phillyfanatic
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
You obviously don't understand a thing.....

Will it be good to have Pronger in 6 years when he's a shell of what he is now for a $4.9 cap hit? Either that or he retires and we still have the hit...
First off, I think Pronger will in fact play all 7 years of his deal. He will play into 40 and it may be a problem in year 6 and 7. However, he does not have a NTC and should he want to retire at that time, I suspect he could be traded to a team with tonnes of cap room that wants to get to the floor (like Mogilny was). We would have to give us a draftpick, but that is doable at that time.

Chris Pronger is a superstar right now.
Chris Pronger will be a top 2 defenceman on any team in the league for the next 4-5 years.

He is well worth the trade. What exactly don't I understand.

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07-08-2010, 10:23 AM
  #150
Schenn10
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
You obviously don't understand a thing.....

Will it be good to have Pronger in 6 years when he's a shell of what he is now for a $4.9 cap hit? Either that or he retires and we still have the hit...
Can you imagine Pronger's life then? He retires at 40, plays golf every day, coaches his son's pee-wee hockey team and gets paid a couple million every year by the Flyers to do it.

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