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Old
07-06-2010, 06:11 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dread Pirate Roberts View Post
Based on the article, I think he wanted the Pens to give Gonchar the 3 years, 16.5 million and no movement clause, then sign Andy Sutton. Which is a terrible idea, because Gonchar is old and oft-injured, while Sutton just plain sucks.
He dances around what Shero should have done, which is really the point. If you have a negative opinion on what they did, you should be willing to put your but on the line with what they should have done. He never really gets to that, outside of some vague references to Gonchar and Sutton.

But if he really wanted them to spend 15-16.5M on Gonchar and sign Andy Sutton, then I'm really glad he's not the GM.

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07-06-2010, 06:17 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
No need to put on sour faces simply because an article isn't complimentary of the Pens' moves.

Is anybody going to doubt that even despite the Michalek and Martin acquisitions:

1) We have little grit outside of Orpik on the blueline, and no legitimate crease-clearer?

2) We have no bona-fide PP quarterback, and we looked like garbage without Gonchar last year.

3) Our wingers are the worst in the league.

Shero's direction has merit, but it certainly isn't immune to criticism. We have a fair amount of holes on account of Shero's "mobile, unphysical defensive blueliners first" philosophy. We'll see if putting all our FA eggs in that basket will pay off.
OK Buddy, stop NOT drinking the Kool Aid immediately if not sooner!

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07-06-2010, 06:19 PM
  #28
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In defense of CW, I think these are good questions to ask, but again, they're questions we had before the deadline, and even if we signed Sutton and Gonchar, they're questions we'd still be answering, except for having a bona-fide PP quarterback for next year. And I certainly would rather have to worry about finding a working PP strategy than an even shoddier blueline for the next year.

But that's my two cents on the matter.

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07-06-2010, 06:23 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
1) Your telling me you would rather have Sutton than Michalek or Martin? How many of these "crease-clearer" defenders did the Hawks have?

I seem to recall Detroit doing pretty well too without the crease clearing defensemen.

When you have to worry about clearing the crease excessively, that means the other team already has the puck too much. I would much rather have two-way mobility with solid puck control, reducing the other team's time with the puck.

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07-06-2010, 06:26 PM
  #30
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There's a time and a place for crease-clearing defensemen. But sticking a number 6/7 crease-clearer who's a liability at even strength into your second pairing is a disaster waiting to happen.

I like the idea a whole lot more of getting someone like Schubert on the cheap, if Engelland or whoever doesn't work out and putting them in the lineup with reduced minutes when necessary, than putting someone like Sutton on the second pairing.

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07-06-2010, 06:40 PM
  #31
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I don't have a problem in what he said, and I wish Shero could have split that cap space evenly, but he didn't.

Defense: is definitely better than before July 1st, not perfect, but better.

Forward: is really going to rely on 1 or two EL guys to impress/stick-with the club.

Rob Niedermayer is not what I call a great improvement to the team, I would like to see Shero try a bit harder at getting a responsible winger with possible upside to really help the PP. That will help take some of the sting out of Gonchar being gone. If they stay with status quo, the PP just got worse for the worse, if that is even possible?

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07-06-2010, 07:18 PM
  #32
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I love the acquisitions of Martin and Michalek, but I would swap our pickups for New Jersey's Volchenkov, Tallinder and Kovalchuk triumvirate any day of the week. Granted, it was obviously too expensive for us...but even Volchenkov and Kovalchuk alone would have made a greater impact on our team than the two defensemen we signed. We better hope Kovy doesn't choose NJ, because we're sitting third in the division if he does.

There was no way I wanted Gonchar back for a three-year deal, but we simply could NOT afford to lose his offense and not get some winger help this off-season.

We are officially a middle-of-the pack team.

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07-06-2010, 07:30 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
I love the acquisitions of Martin and Michalek, but I would swap our pickups for New Jersey's Volchenkov, Tallinder and Kovalchuk triumvirate any day of the week. Granted, it was obviously too expensive for us...but even Volchenkov and Kovalchuk alone would have made a greater impact on our team than the two defensemen we signed. We better hope Kovy doesn't choose NJ, because we're sitting third in the division if he does.

There was no way I wanted Gonchar back for a three-year deal, but we simply could NOT afford to lose his offense and not get some winger help this off-season.

We are officially a middle-of-the pack team.
I respectfully disagree. We haven't had a defense this good in years (at least on paper).

There are questions going forward, but this team's roster is much more than a middle of the pack team.

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07-06-2010, 07:31 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
This guy is an idiot.

TSN, on July 1st, had Martin as the #1 UFA defenseman available, ahead of all the other players he mentioned. Doug McLean echoed that sentiment on Sportsnet the same day. Martin was also, along with Hamhuis, the most highly sought after Dman and other teams were offering him more $ than we signed him for.

It seemed that many/most of the UFAs this year saw Pittsburgh as the #1 destination and wanted to play here, and we had the cap space and cash to sign any one of them. So the Penguins had the pick of the litter, and they chose these 2 guys. So I'm going to trust the TSN panel, a former NHL GM, and the entire Pens' management who made these decisions, over some dude with his own (albeit very good) website on the internet.

Also, what he fails to realize is what this move does for the long-term picture of this franchise. We now have the 2 best defensemen of this years UFA class locked up for the next 5 years, along with Orpik & Letang for the next 4, and Goligoski for 2 at a cheap cap hit whose rights we retain after his contract expires. Now that means that if we wanted to, and if the right deal came up, we could trade promising prospects like Despres, Strait, Bortuzzo or Samuelsson to bring in a young forward if need be. We now have one of the very deepest & highest quality organizational pools in the entire NHL of defensemen, which is the most valuable commodity in this league.

And with all those guys locked up in this organization for the long term, next summer, when the cap will hopefully rise again, we could go out and get a some higher priced talent up front. In the meantime, guys like Johnson, Jeffrey & Tangradi will already be a collossal upgrade from Guerin & Fedotenko. Tyler Kennedy is a guy who a lot of people think may have top-6 potential, and he, like our big 3 centres, are only going to take another step forward in terms of development and production. Factor in a healthy, full year for guys like Talbot & Kunitz, and we should be just fine, if not ideal, up front.

Thankfully, this fool isn't running our hockey club.
This, this, this. . . and some more of THIS.

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Old
07-06-2010, 07:40 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
I love the acquisitions of Martin and Michalek, but I would swap our pickups for New Jersey's Volchenkov, Tallinder and Kovalchuk triumvirate any day of the week. Granted, it was obviously too expensive for us...but even Volchenkov and Kovalchuk alone would have made a greater impact on our team than the two defensemen we signed. We better hope Kovy doesn't choose NJ, because we're sitting third in the division if he does.

There was no way I wanted Gonchar back for a three-year deal, but we simply could NOT afford to lose his offense and not get some winger help this off-season.

We are officially a middle-of-the pack team.
We've got roughly the same forwards we had in 09, we got better defensemen than 09 and a centre who got himself nominated for the Selke for his defensive play, we also got the two same superstar centers, I really don't think a team that's slightly better (on paper) than the 09 team that won a cup can be called a "middle-of-the pack team".

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Old
07-06-2010, 07:41 PM
  #36
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As everyone has said, these moves (in theory) make the team better at it's greatest weakness even if it still leaves some holes. This holes are set to be filled in the next year or two depending on how the Cap moves.

In the mean time you have two world class, best in the game players who can produce 100+ points a piece and an above average third line. Plus there are players like Goligoski and Letang who, while not being mistaken for Gonchar, can still put up points.

The Penguins are easily a playoff team and depending on what Shero does at the deadline and who works out in the regular season in terms of young players are only two wingers away (since Staal will be moved up) from being a World Class team that will be the top favorites in a Cup run. The Penguins are much, much more than a "middle of the pack" team. That's just a silly defeatist mentality that has zero basis in reality.

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07-06-2010, 07:43 PM
  #37
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FWIW there are holes on this team that will need to be addressed.

The winger situation is a legitimate concern, and it appears we will have no choice but to count on WBS guys to produce.

I truly think this team will be okay, but it does highlight the folly of the Ponikarovsky trade because Caputi would be nice to have right now in light of the cap situation.

However, I am more comfortable with this team moving forward than the squad we had going into last season. A top 4 like this one, and with the group of centers we have will keep us in contention for the next several years.

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Old
07-06-2010, 07:43 PM
  #38
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Nobody knows who offered what to Volchenkov, Jags. Maybe he wanted to be close to NYC and NJ/NYC's ginormous Russian population? And complaining about being middle of the pack before rosters are finalized is just silly.

All in all, there was no way we were ever getting Kobachoo, so to use that as a minus is a tad disingenuous . Who else was a legit sure-fire winger we could have landed?

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07-06-2010, 07:49 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
No need to put on sour faces simply because an article isn't complimentary of the Pens' moves.

Is anybody going to doubt that even despite the Michalek and Martin acquisitions:

1) We have little grit outside of Orpik on the blueline, and no legitimate crease-clearer?

2) We have no bona-fide PP quarterback, and we looked like garbage without Gonchar last year.

3) Our wingers are the worst in the league.

Shero's direction has merit, but it certainly isn't immune to criticism. We have a fair amount of holes on account of Shero's "mobile, unphysical defensive blueliners first" philosophy. We'll see if putting all our FA eggs in that basket will pay off.
Pick any damn team in the NHL, CW, and I'll give you 3 bullet points of things they don't have. Every single team has their own to worry about.

Create some bullet points that other teams can't match us on -

1) We have two of the three best players in the entire world on our team. In fact one of them could be noted the best player in the entire game. What other team has that?

2) We lost a future HOF defender and instead of waiting to replace him, our GM went out and got 2 out of the top 5 defenders on the free agency market. What other GM did that?

3) Our third line center is a Selke candidate and is part of one of the best 3rd lines in the game. Maybe Vancouver can match that... but not really?

4) Our 4th line center scored two goals, one being the gwg, in Game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals. I highly doubt another team can match that.

5) This one is a stretch, but I can't think of one bottom 6 that is better than ours. I just can't. Our top 4 defenders are somewhere in the top 10 as well.


I hate to play the role of the homer, but no team in the NHL is perfect. The article is a complete joke and some of the Penguin fans buying into the fact that we should be perfect is ridiculous. (That was not directed at you CW)

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Old
07-06-2010, 08:28 PM
  #40
TravisUlrich
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The bad is that Martin will make MORE than highly sought Hamhuis (6-years, $27 million in Vancouver) and shutdown bruiser Anton Volchenkov (6-years, $25.5 million in New Jersey).

Martin has 26 career goals... in 400 career games. Five million dollars?
And that's where he lost me. He's arguing that Paul Martin is less valuable than Volchenkov and Hamhuis?

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07-06-2010, 08:31 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by TravisUlrich View Post
And that's where he lost me. He's arguing that Paul Martin is less valuable than Volchenkov and Hamhuis?
Or was it the fact he spoke about Martin and then immediately discussed his goal production?

That's the only way to describe defensemen nowadays. Mike Green = ubbbbber best defender evaaarrr!

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Old
07-06-2010, 08:58 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
I love the acquisitions of Martin and Michalek, but I would swap our pickups for New Jersey's Volchenkov, Tallinder and Kovalchuk triumvirate any day of the week. Granted, it was obviously too expensive for us...but even Volchenkov and Kovalchuk alone would have made a greater impact on our team than the two defensemen we signed. We better hope Kovy doesn't choose NJ, because we're sitting third in the division if he does.

There was no way I wanted Gonchar back for a three-year deal, but we simply could NOT afford to lose his offense and not get some winger help this off-season.

We are officially a middle-of-the pack team.

Since when did Kovalchuk make any team he was on better.

Shero signed two of the top 5 dman available and yet people still whine. Defense was a big issue last season, especially in the playoffs. What was he supposed to do? There is only so much cap room to dispense.

What winger should he have signed?

Scoring goals won't be an issue and with Martin and Michalek keeping them out won't be as much of an issue.


Tallinder is soft, Volchenkov is good but his playstyle is going to catch up with him eventually. Kovalchuk hasn't even signed yet.

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Old
07-06-2010, 08:59 PM
  #43
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Re : Martin v. Volchenkov

We gained Jersey's top pairing guy, and snagged someone equal to Volchenkov in terms of shut-down defense. From the Jersey side of things, it seems that people would have rather held on to Martin, if it was possible than get Volchenkov alone. Given that the contracts aren't worlds different, I'm really not seeing how the V-train was the most sought-after of the defensemen on the market. Maybe I'm wrong, but that just seems to be revisionist history to me.

Besides, getting Kovachoo would have been nearly impossible without a severe restructuring of our roster, even before we signed Martin and Michalek. If we were in the market for Kovachoo, it would have most likely been because we traded away that center depth that people are always going on about here.

So, in short, the cap world is always about picking your poison, and we picked the one we felt we could most likely do without.

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07-06-2010, 09:50 PM
  #44
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I just think we're being dumb (as a franchise) for not wanting to help your lead horses set the pace for the rest of the league. We could be the most intimidating offensive club in the NHL, and it wouldn't even be close, if they built the team differently. But this stupid Nashville model is the way they wanna build it, which is fine. But we're complicating matters that don't have to be complex.

Give Sid a skilled winger. Give Geno a skilled winger. Keep Line 3 intact. Dominate with three lines. That alleviates pressure from having to have a 'great' defense, and it alleviates stress on Fleury for not having to worry about his occasional blunders.

Having Martin and Michalek is great, but they don't directly help Sid and Geno dominate most nights. Linemates with skill do that. In fact, they're now going to miss Gonchar...a lot. And it didn't have to be so.

We're building this team as if Martin Brodeur is the franchise goalie, and the goalie is far and away the best player on this team...which clearly isn't the case. We're also building this team as if Jason Arnott and David Legwand are the top two centers...instead of one of the most lethal combinations ever at the center position. The one constant we could rely on during all the winger inconsistencies the last few years was, when healthy, our third line was the best in the NHL. Now, because we spent everything on defense, that too is likely gonzo.

Meanwhile, we're trying to turn Keith Primeau into Luc Robitaille by moving Staal from the backbone of the team (Line 3) to a scoring line. Forget about the fact he sucks at left wing, and that won't change. Ever. OR, we're going to move the very best second-line center you could possibly wish for in the cap era to wing. And this is supposed to be exciting news. Yay.

Gretzky-Messier had Kurri, Tikkanen, Anderson, Simpson et al. Yzerman-Fedorov had Shanahan, Kozlov and a cast of endless winger talent. Sakic and Forsberg had a young Tanguay, Hejduk, Kamensky, Nolan and many many more. Sid and Geno get crumbs.

I'm just venting, I know. Eventually, I'll get really excited about the upcoming season. But right now all I see are enough holes on the wings to kill our Stanley Cup championship hopes. I hope I'm wrong. Maybe we'll find needles in haystacks. Maybe a kid or two will surprise. Maybe we actually are going to spend the rest of what we have left on a winger, and maybe we won't move any of the centers after all. But right now, we're not good enough. And it pains me to see our best assets left to fend for themselves. That seems to be someone's philosophy for building a winner, but it sure isn't mine. And whenever teams have 2 awesome centers, let alone 2 awesome centers and 1 really really really good one to boot, they didn't go out of their way to neglect them. They built around them...and won.

Yeah, those were different times...without a cap. Perhaps we should have thought about that, though, before spending our wad on two defensemen...leaving our two best players alone on their own islands (lines).

It should never have been, but we're going to miss Gonchar.

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07-06-2010, 09:59 PM
  #45
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I remember we out-shot Montreal pretty well in the second round. I remember how badly we outplayed them in some games but lost. Why did we lose these games? Because Halak was a God throughout that series. We never had any trouble getting pucks on net and creating offense. It was the defense (and Fleury) that were ****ing us over every game.

Yeah it blows that Gonchar is gone but he's in a decline right now. We'll miss him QBing the PP but other than that, we made solid moves to replace him on free agent day.

Also have to realize that this team is locked down for the next 4-5 years. Now all Shero has to do is find a couple top 6 wingers and we're set.

Sure we're not the top contender for the Cup but we're definitely one of them.

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07-06-2010, 10:00 PM
  #46
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As an extra aside, how are low PIMs a bad thing for a positional defensive defenseman? But seeing as it doesn't sound like this guy has ever watched Martin closely or realized that he has been the number 1 for New Jersey for a couple years now it doesn't surprise me that he would not know what exactly it is that Martin brings to the table.

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07-06-2010, 10:03 PM
  #47
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the play of staal, fleury, letang and gogo are gonna decide our fate this year i believe. if these guys can all improve and take their game to the next level i think we'll do just fine. our pk is gonna be good, and if our powerplay can be just average, i like our team alot.

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07-06-2010, 10:06 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisKunitzIsMyBoy View Post
I remember we out-shot Montreal pretty well in the second round. I remember how badly we outplayed them in some games but lost. Why did we lose these games? Because Halak was a God throughout that series. We never had any trouble getting pucks on net and creating offense. It was the defense (and Fleury) that were ****ing us over every game.

Yeah it blows that Gonchar is gone but he's in a decline right now. We'll miss him QBing the PP but other than that, we made solid moves to replace him on free agent day.

Also have to realize that this team is locked down for the next 4-5 years. Now all Shero has to do is find a couple top 6 wingers and we're set.

Sure we're not the top contender for the Cup but we're definitely one of them
.
Absolutely. And the East is wide open. The two teams in the ECF were freakin bubble teams that qualified for the playoffs on their last day of season.

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07-06-2010, 10:10 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
I just think we're being dumb (as a franchise) for not wanting to help your lead horses set the pace for the rest of the league. We could be the most intimidating offensive club in the NHL, and it wouldn't even be close, if they built the team differently.
How's that working for Washington?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87
But this stupid Nashville model is the way they wanna build it, which is fine. But we're complicating matters that don't have to be complex.
That team, without Crosby and Malkin, gave this year's Stanley Cup Champs their hardest series. Switch Arnott and Legwand for Crosby and Malkin and the Blackhawks are 'rebuilding' a playoff choke team not blowing up a championship team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87
Give Sid a skilled winger. Give Geno a skilled winger. Keep Line 3 intact. Dominate with three lines. That alleviates pressure from having to have a 'great' defense, and it alleviates stress on Fleury for not having to worry about his occasional blunders.
Actually having that great defence alleviates the pressure on Fleury much more than seeing the other goalie lit up worse. We will be top 10 or better in goals for this year. We will be top 15 maybe top 10 in goals against. We will be a better hockey team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87
Having Martin and Michalek is great, but they don't directly help Sid and Geno dominate most nights. Linemates with skill do that.
Playing defence is what tires centres out. If you don't control the puck you aren't controlling the pace. Puck retrieval and crisp short passes might not be sexy to the average fan, but forwards LOVE them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87
It should never have been, but we're going to miss Gonchar.
On the powerplay. Martin is Gonchar's equal or better in every aspect of the game not played in the offensive zone with the possible exception of the long bomb outlet pass.

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07-06-2010, 10:12 PM
  #50
ThosePuckingPenguins
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Goal scoring wasn't really even a problem for us in the playoffs until a superhero effort from Halak, and it took seven games. The Ottawa series we were scoring a decent amount (though to be fair, Ottawa played like **** in that series).

What was the real problem was that the defense was far too easy on the other team's fowards. I mean, Mike freakin Cammalleri scored seven goals in that series. Shero went out and (hopefully) fixed that issue.

You need centers, wingers, defense, and goaltending to win in the playoffs. I don't know about you, but if I had to choose one of these to be a weakness, I'd choose wingers, especially when we have the best set of centers in the league, a solid defense, and a playoff proven goalie (yes he was bad last year but you can't expect any goalie to be lights out in the playoffs every year).

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