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Old
07-07-2010, 10:33 AM
  #76
Coach John McGuirk
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Who cares if we're 1st or 8th, making the playoffs is what matters because this team is built to do damage after April.

We're not going to win the President's Trophy. Get over it and move on with your life.

We're a much stronger playoff team now than when Gonchar was aboard.

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07-07-2010, 10:42 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Coach John McGuirk View Post
Who cares if we're 1st or 8th, making the playoffs is what matters because this team is built to do damage after April.

We're not going to win the President's Trophy. Get over it and move on with your life.

We're a much stronger playoff team now than when Gonchar was aboard.
I know this is going to be rather hypocrite since I've been advocating the same thing, but saying we're a stronger playoff team when we have one new defenseman who haven't really gotten any real playoff experience and one who's been on a team that's been choking in the playoffs for a long time is maybe rather prematurely.

We do have two stanley cup finals and one second-round in our luggage with a majority of the team though so it's not like we lack the experience.

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07-07-2010, 10:49 AM
  #78
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Martin was on a perennial underachiever when it came to the playoffs. Duncan Keith couldn't have changed that fact.

Michalek's experience doesn't matter. His game transfers very well into the playoff setting.

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07-07-2010, 10:49 AM
  #79
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Of course, because he's never been replaced. Big difference between yanking someone out of the lineup and trying to cope opposed to changing things a bit with different personnel.
We'll see if Martin's different strengths compensate for what Gonchar brings over the next 3 years.

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Seems like some are expecting us to be the league's clear cut favorite or bust.
There's a middle-ground here, where we're a good team that does well enough but doesn't have the dynamism on the back-end to put us over the top. I think a lot of teams are in that position.

Maybe our stud centers and reliable defensemen get the job done in spite of our deficiencies. But maybe replacing a crucial cog to our success over the past 3 years isn't as easy as signing a couple of the best available FA defensemen who bring completely different skillsets to the table.

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But Gonchar didn't sign for Martin's value. Gonchar signed for a stupid contract that is a bigger risk than Letang figuring out where the damn net is. The realities of the cap world being what they are, Gonchar's contract is a bad risk in the long term, regardless of how much you think he's worth it in the short term.And again, panicking over a roster that's not even remotely set is a waste of time.
I disagree about the contract. It's very much in line with what other #1 defensemen who've had similar success post-lockout have gotten.

Anyway, I'm not panicking. I think Shero's a great GM who'll find a way to plug the holes competently enough given our remaining cap space. But history's shown me that it's rarely, if ever, a beneficial move for a perennial contender to part with its #1.

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07-07-2010, 10:51 AM
  #80
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Michalek got his feet wet last year against a very hot/good Detroit team. I'm not worried about him.

Martin has been on a team that has choked, but not all of that is his fault.

I still think that the Martin/Michalek combination is better for playoff hockey than what we had in Gonchar/Eaton/Leopold/McKee etc. last year. We'll miss Gonchar on the PP, but the majority of the game is played at ES and I believe the new guys are better ES players.

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07-07-2010, 11:12 AM
  #81
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haters gonna hate.
it's impossible to buy a perfect team. I don't know if the author noticed but there's a salary cap in effect.

If you're a car guy - I'd say that we've done the equivalent of designing a premium chassis and drivetrain. Yeah we may not have the finishing touches yet, but the DNA for a world class sports car is there.

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07-07-2010, 11:25 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by HandshakeLine View Post
But Gonchar didn't sign for Martin's value. Gonchar signed for a stupid contract that is a bigger risk than Letang figuring out where the damn net is. The realities of the cap world being what they are, Gonchar's contract is a bad risk in the long term, regardless of how much you think he's worth it in the short term.
Yea it may be a stupid contract, but Gonch lost tons of money along with the other nhlers from that shady investor last year. He knew someone would offer big bucks and he got what he needed

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07-07-2010, 03:21 PM
  #83
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Yea it may be a stupid contract, but Gonch lost tons of money along with the other nhlers from that shady investor last year. He knew someone would offer big bucks and he got what he needed
I bet you with Canadian taxes and presently overvalued Canadian dollar, he'll probably be making less money there than here. I guess the 3rd year meant a lot to him.

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07-07-2010, 03:27 PM
  #84
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Up front, if they land Kovalchuk, plus the addition of Arnott, they could conceivably be able to match Philly's offensive depth...they could play Parise and Zajac together, Kovalchuk and Zubrus together and Elias and Arnott together. Fill in the lines with Langenbrunner, Rolston and Clarkson. And they probably have the right coach to open things up. Not good for us.
The Devils will have to move probably two forwards to fit Kovalchuk in, it's a bit misleading to say that all of those guys are going to be there if they sign Kovalchuk. They won't.

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07-07-2010, 03:37 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by ScOrpik View Post
Yea it may be a stupid contract, but Gonch lost tons of money along with the other nhlers from that shady investor last year. He knew someone would offer big bucks and he got what he needed
I've got no problems with Gonchar signing that contract. The guy's going to be guaranteed that money for as long as the contract runs, and he's earned a big payday that's probably going to be the last in his career.

It's just not a safe-bet contract like people are painting it, and given our window of opportunity, I'd rather take on contracts that we can recover from or get rid of if the unthinkable happens.

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07-07-2010, 05:21 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Low PIMs isn't a bad thing, per se, but if your entire blue-line has low PIMs, guess what that makes it? S-O-F-F. And we're still soff back there, moreso than when we won the Cup and on par with when we had Whitney. A little grittier than last year, but that's about it.


Interesting. If I look at current Pens top 6 defensemen today (Martin, Michalek, Orpik, Goligoski, Letang, and Lovejoy) and tally up their collective 09-10 PIMs, it comes to a measely 171 PIM.

Of course, that was with Martin and Lovejoy respectively playing 22 and 12 games. It's probably reasonable to project that over full seasons and time Martin will be in the upper 20's (his zone), and Lovejoy, being very conservative, in the 40-range (his NCAA/AHL carreer he has been around or just south of 1PIM / game averge).

So that takes the combined average projection to....say....230.


If I look at the past 5 cup winners and the top 6 they had playing to win the cup...well there is a discrepancy. Carolina and Anaheim (with all their truculence) had about 350 each.

Detroit was a bit of an anomaly as they slipped down to 271. The Pens came in at 230. And last year, the Hawks were at 194. (That said, a bit light so you could add a bit more to account for their rotating 6th.) So...again...about 230ish.


Wait a sec? Does that mean our soft defence is in the same statistical zone and following the trend as the last 3 cup winners??? (What's that saying....two is a conincidence, three is a trend?)


I dunno. I kinda like having D-men that stay out of the box. I also like the fact that there is above average mobility, strong puck control, and shot blocking with this crew.

Besides, I am pretty darn sure we weren't getting absolutely decimated by Gionta and Cammalleri because of our lack of physical prowess (aka..."soffness"). I seemed to see them skating around our defensemen and our defensemen being out of position a lot. But maybe that was just the series I watched.

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Old
07-07-2010, 09:30 PM
  #87
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In other words, we scored goals on a crap Ottawa goaltender and still had to suffer a hard 6-game series, despite them having several important injuries, and then we got beaten by an inferior Montreal team.

Through it all, we scored enough goals on a GPG basis, but why? Because we scored 15 PP goals in those 13 games.

Against Montreal we scored 15 goals in total. 8 of them on the PP, two of them empty net goals. That's a grand total of 5 actual 5 on 5 ES goals in 7 games. By comparison, Washington hit them for 15 (plus two EN) and only lost because their PP suffered a complete melt-down after leading the league through the regular season.

It is one thing that our D will hopefully give up quite a bit less next season, but with our wings not being improved and the PP taking a hit, it IS going to be difficult to score against good teams and more so in the playoffs, because the book on us is well and truly out.
For the 1,181,344th time:

We were beaten 7 games by a hot goaltender!

It just happens. Don't read so much into it. It's happened to better teams than the 2010 Pittsburgh Penguins. Sometimes, you just don't win the Stanley Cup. I'm sorry but that's just the way it goes.

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07-07-2010, 09:32 PM
  #88
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For the 1,181,344th time:

We were beaten 7 games by a hot goaltender!

It just happens. Don't read so much into it. It's happened to better teams than the 2010 Pittsburgh Penguins. Sometimes, you just don't win the Stanley Cup. I'm sorry but that's just the way it goes.
Meh, sort of.

The Pens lost just as much because both their defense and goaltender played terribly. You can't let players like Cammalleri walk all over you. Martin and Michalek won't stand for that ****, which is superb.

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07-07-2010, 10:03 PM
  #89
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Meh, sort of.

The Pens lost just as much because both their defense and goaltender played terribly. You can't let players like Cammalleri walk all over you. Martin and Michalek won't stand for that ****, which is superb.
Yep, which is why a lot of people are giving Shero "A's". We got a lot of shots on net but Halak was playing out of his mind in that series.

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07-07-2010, 11:35 PM
  #90
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Why are people talking about how the current roster will do in the playoffs? Last I checked, the calendar reads "July" not "April".

Even if Shero does nothing else in Free Agency, the Pens will have a different roster in the playoffs than they do now. It's not like Shero has a history of sitting on his hands at the trading deadline, after all.

The roster, as it stands, vastly improves a massive weakness from last season's team, and accepts, for now, a weakness on the wings. It's worth noting that by having a very strong blueline, and having depth in defensive prospects, the Pens now have an area in the system they can potentially trade from in order to acquire the wingers they want.

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07-08-2010, 08:18 AM
  #91
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Forgive me if I'm not ga-ga over the idea of yet another deadline move for a winger. Tangradi to Minnesota for Brunette? That would be on par with what happened this past deadline, when we moved out Caputi (who would EASILY be in our top six this season, oh by the way) for Ponikarovsky.

A few of us have been saying for a while that you simply CANNOT keep going to the well that is the deadline to resolve all of your winger issues. Sooner or later, you're going to get burned...and we did. Granted, I am happy that we finally did something about the long-term situation at the draft. That was a great start, for sure.

But Tangradi or Despres for a rental would be a terrible decision for us...and when push comes to shove, the teams with the rentals often hold the upper hand. So, it could happen again.

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07-08-2010, 08:25 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Forgive me if I'm not ga-ga over the idea of yet another deadline move for a winger. Tangradi to Minnesota for Brunette? That would be on par with what happened this past deadline, when we moved out Caputi (who would EASILY be in our top six this season, oh by the way) for Ponikarovsky.

A few of us have been saying for a while that you simply CANNOT keep going to the well that is the deadline to resolve all of your winger issues. Sooner or later, you're going to get burned...and we did. Granted, I am happy that we finally did something about the long-term situation at the draft. That was a great start, for sure.

But Tangradi or Despres for a rental would be a terrible decision for us...and when push comes to shove, the teams with the rentals often hold the upper hand. So, it could happen again.
Eh... Just because Caputi could have easily been in our top 6 this year, doesn't make him a good player. Many people were questioning his skills before he got traded. I think most people were viewing the kid through black and gold colored glasses.

There is no way Shero will trade Tangradi for such a dumbfounding return. I'm willing to bet my life on that much. Especially since that kind of trade just burnt him this last season.

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Old
07-08-2010, 09:49 AM
  #93
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I bet you with Canadian taxes and presently overvalued Canadian dollar, he'll probably be making less money there than here. I guess the 3rd year meant a lot to him.
I believe all of the teams pay their players in US dollars.

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07-08-2010, 09:59 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Forgive me if I'm not ga-ga over the idea of yet another deadline move for a winger. Tangradi to Minnesota for Brunette? That would be on par with what happened this past deadline, when we moved out Caputi (who would EASILY be in our top six this season, oh by the way) for Ponikarovsky.

A few of us have been saying for a while that you simply CANNOT keep going to the well that is the deadline to resolve all of your winger issues. Sooner or later, you're going to get burned...and we did. Granted, I am happy that we finally did something about the long-term situation at the draft. That was a great start, for sure.

But Tangradi or Despres for a rental would be a terrible decision for us...and when push comes to shove, the teams with the rentals often hold the upper hand. So, it could happen again.
Yeah Jags, I would bet after the Poni failure, that Shero is done with such deals. He even said that before the trade was made, "we can't keep relying elsewhere for our needs, and we are going to have to start filling those within." But I guess it was worth a shot, (Caputi was not a much of a loss imo) being the defending champs that maybe Poni could give us a spark. It didn't go so well, obviously, so I really doubt Rejean ventures down that road anymore.

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07-08-2010, 10:15 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Forgive me if I'm not ga-ga over the idea of yet another deadline move for a winger. Tangradi to Minnesota for Brunette? That would be on par with what happened this past deadline, when we moved out Caputi (who would EASILY be in our top six this season, oh by the way) for Ponikarovsky.

A few of us have been saying for a while that you simply CANNOT keep going to the well that is the deadline to resolve all of your winger issues. Sooner or later, you're going to get burned...and we did. Granted, I am happy that we finally did something about the long-term situation at the draft. That was a great start, for sure.

But Tangradi or Despres for a rental would be a terrible decision for us...and when push comes to shove, the teams with the rentals often hold the upper hand. So, it could happen again.
I would assume at this point that the Pens would be able to make a move along the lines of Bortuzzo, Strait or Sneep for a decent rental. Alternately, if one of the prospects proves to be ready now, and a better option than someone on the NHL roster, the Pens could trade that way (as they did when they moved Whitney in order to acquire Kunitz and Tangradi).

Shero is the kind of GM who learns from his mistakes. I'd expect that if any prospect gets traded away, they'll either be projected as a bottom 6 player, or else will be a defenseman - categories where the Pens have plenty of depth.

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07-08-2010, 10:18 AM
  #96
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Shero seems like a very rational guy who analyzes things, comes up with a long-term plan and follows it through. So he saw two big areas of need: improving the wingers and improving the defense. He knows he can't fix both at once due to cap reasons so he has to pick one or the other. Looking at his options he went after defense because:

- the UFA crop was way better there than at forward
- our prospect wingers are more ready for promotion than our prospect d-men (excluding Lovejoy)
- we have elite centers that can carry a forward line without strong wingers

By signing Martin and Michalek he spent almost all our cap space this summer on D, ensuring that our defense is set for years to come. Next summer he can concentrate solely on wingers, likely with a better group to choose from too.

It sucks that we probably still won't have someone to help Sid and Geno carry the load offensively but what he did was perfectly reasonable giving the situation we were in.

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07-08-2010, 10:26 AM
  #97
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I would assume at this point that the Pens would be able to make a move along the lines of Bortuzzo, Strait or Sneep for a decent rental. Alternately, if one of the prospects proves to be ready now, and a better option than someone on the NHL roster, the Pens could trade that way (as they did when they moved Whitney in order to acquire Kunitz and Tangradi).

Shero is the kind of GM who learns from his mistakes. I'd expect that if any prospect gets traded away, they'll either be projected as a bottom 6 player, or else will be a defenseman - categories where the Pens have plenty of depth.
Exactly. I was thinking the same thing when posting previously that Shero was done with such deals. But with our recent Dmen signings, and having Despres in the pipeline, one of Bortuzzo or Strait (two guys I feel will be NHL'ers) or Sneep (haven't seen him play) would be dangled if we needed something on the cheap.

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07-08-2010, 11:15 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Forgive me if I'm not ga-ga over the idea of yet another deadline move for a winger. Tangradi to Minnesota for Brunette? That would be on par with what happened this past deadline, when we moved out Caputi (who would EASILY be in our top six this season, oh by the way) for Ponikarovsky.

A few of us have been saying for a while that you simply CANNOT keep going to the well that is the deadline to resolve all of your winger issues. Sooner or later, you're going to get burned...and we did. Granted, I am happy that we finally did something about the long-term situation at the draft. That was a great start, for sure.

But Tangradi or Despres for a rental would be a terrible decision for us...and when push comes to shove, the teams with the rentals often hold the upper hand. So, it could happen again.
First off I don't see Shero trading Tangradi or Despres at the deadline. Tangradi will be one of his answers for a long term fix on the wings if not this year the next. I can see Shero trading a D prospect since our top 6 is young and not going anywhere soon.

With the cap Shero is doing the right things by bringing in top 2 line wingers for the team at the deadline when we can fit them under the cap. Lets face it the only time this team will have legit top 6 forwards on the wing is when we home grow one or trade for one like in Tagradi's case or when we pick proven ones at the deadline when we can fit them under the cap.

Shero has done a fine job of getting wingers to play in our top 6 over the years at the deadline. They worked out in all cases besides for Poni but no one bats 1,000 and he was considered by most one of the best wingers available. Shero brought in Roberts, Hossa and Dupuis, Guerin and Kunitz, and Poni near each of the deadlines the past 4 years. Shero will bring in one or two wingers near this deadline and you can look at his past history to prove that.

Shero has given the Pens a chance to go for the Cup in all 4 years he has been with the Pens they have had 105 points in his first year 102 in his 2nd year when we went to the finals, 99 points the year we won the cup and 101 points last year. I think Shero has done a fine job giving the team a chance for the Cup every year while not selling out the teams future with bad signings like lets say Campbell, Redden, Drury, to name a few. Also while giving up some future assets Shero still has a strong core of young players on the team with a D that is 29 and younger and with prospects like Despres, Strait, Bortuzzo, Sneep, Samuelsson looking to fight for one of those top 6 spots sometime in the next 1-3 years.

What do you want? Some seem like they just like to ***** and complain about something. Be glad you have a GM and ownership that goes for the Cup every year and is one of the most active teams at the deadline every year for a Cup push. You can't have everything!!! To challenge for the Cup every year in a cap league you have to give up some assets to do so and to me I believe Shero has not given up much for what he brought in.

Roberts was brought in for a dman that has not panned out (Noah Welch). Hossa and Dupuis was brought in for a late 1st, Esposito (bust so far), Erik Christensen (worthless), and Armstrong (no better than Dupuis who we got in that deal). So with those trades Shero gave up only a late 1st round pick and that is about it to go for a Cup run and reach the finals.

Lets look at the next year when Shero trading Whitney for Kunitz and Tangradi which was a great trade for the Pens because Whitney has not progressed and Kunitz helped the Pens win a Cup and is our only legit top 2 line winger and Tangradi is our best winger prospect which is our biggest weakness. Guerin was brought in for a 3rd round pick and that was only if we made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs or that pick was going to be a 4th and even a 5th if we did not make the playoffs which at that time was a real possability.

So you want to gripe about losing Caputi for Poni which yes that hurts and everyone on this board knows I was a big Caputi fan but it was worth the chance. Poni was a 20+ goal and 50+ point winger to add to a team that needed someone to take over for Feds who just stunk. It did not work out but lets see how good Caputi is in the future before we cry about this deal. If Poni worked out he most likely would still be here and no harm would of been done by trading Caputi but you can't expect perfection from your GM. 29 other teams GM's are trying to win also so be happy for what Shero has done to build a team that will compete for a Cup for the next several years. We all know Shero will bring in a winger or two at the deadline and that will make this team the most complete group we have had even over the Cup winner. We only have to replace Guerin and Fedotenko so we are not talking a hard fix.

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07-08-2010, 12:13 PM
  #99
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Shero is the kind of GM who learns from his mistakes.
The winger situation hasn't changed since he traded for Hossa in '08. He's not learning from this mistake, though.

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07-08-2010, 12:25 PM
  #100
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The winger situation hasn't changed since he traded for Hossa in '08. He's not learning from this mistake, though.
We have also been fine offensively since Sid and Geno arrived.

3rd in Goals per game in 2006-07 (3.26 GP/G)
7th in 2007-08 (2.93 GP/G)
6th in 2008-09 (3.15 GP/G)
5th in 2009-10 (3.04 GP/G)

Defensively?

14th in Goals against per game in 2006-07 (2.93 GA/G)
10th in 2007-08 (2.59 GA/G)
17th in 2008-09 (2.84 GA/G)
20th in 2009-10 (2.87 GA/G)

Which was the bigger need? More scoring or a better defense?

Shero isn't an idiot, he knows what he's doing. Would it be awesome to have a $5M/yr winger on each of the top 2 lines? Yeah. But it's not imperative to the success of the team that we have them.

Coach John McGuirk is offline   Reply With Quote
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