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Ales Hemsky for a couple young talented Defenceman!

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Old
07-10-2010, 10:51 AM
  #301
Roof Daddy
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When will the select few Oiler fans that want to get rid of Hemsky quit with the trade proposals? No Oiler fan who actually understands what building a hockey team entails wants to trade him. We have some young building blocks in Hall, Eberle and MPS. If they start the year as our most talented players and our go to guys for offence, not only will our team get crushed, but so will they, along with their confidence. You need veterans that will draw attention away from the rooks. You need skilled vets to help the rooks develop their skill game. And in using vet to describe Hemmer, we're not talking about someone at the end of their career, we're talking about a guy just entering his prime.

That may be the most important part, that Hemsky hasn't even entered his prime yet. Canucks fans have slagged him in this thread as "every year he is a year away from a 90 point season." I'll be the first to admit I thought his numbers would have taken off by now. But he only now has the supporting cast needed for a breakout season. Not only has he had sub-par linemates in the past (for the first couple weeks last year his linemates were JF Jaques and Horcoff), but rarely has he had secondary scoring behind him to draw attention away. It will be a different story next year. Its no different than the Sedins breaking out this year. Don't get me wrong, they have shown greater consistency and better numbers than Hemsky, but shouldn't that be expected from 2 players with the benefit of being linemates since they were embryos? They have had major hype since the day Burke pulled of some magic to draft the two. Good to very good numbers, but never seemed to fully reach expectations until last year. What did the Nucks have more of last year than any year in the last decade? Secondary scoring.

Is it impossible to think that, if healthy, a full year with Penner and Hall, or Penner and Gagner, Hemsky couldn't be an 80-90pt player? If we can agree on that, then why, my (select few) fellow Oiler fans, would we trade a guy that would be the first Oiler to crack 80 pts since Doug Weight (who hasn't been here for nearly a decade)? Hemsky is more important than the "2 young Dmen" this thread is asking for.

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07-10-2010, 11:28 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
When will the select few Oiler fans that want to get rid of Hemsky quit with the trade proposals? No Oiler fan who actually understands what building a hockey team entails wants to trade him. We have some young building blocks in Hall, Eberle and MPS. If they start the year as our most talented players and our go to guys for offence, not only will our team get crushed, but so will they, along with their confidence. You need veterans that will draw attention away from the rooks. You need skilled vets to help the rooks develop their skill game. And in using vet to describe Hemmer, we're not talking about someone at the end of their career, we're talking about a guy just entering his prime.

That may be the most important part, that Hemsky hasn't even entered his prime yet. Canucks fans have slagged him in this thread as "every year he is a year away from a 90 point season." I'll be the first to admit I thought his numbers would have taken off by now. But he only now has the supporting cast needed for a breakout season. Not only has he had sub-par linemates in the past (for the first couple weeks last year his linemates were JF Jaques and Horcoff), but rarely has he had secondary scoring behind him to draw attention away. It will be a different story next year. Its no different than the Sedins breaking out this year. Don't get me wrong, they have shown greater consistency and better numbers than Hemsky, but shouldn't that be expected from 2 players with the benefit of being linemates since they were embryos? They have had major hype since the day Burke pulled of some magic to draft the two. Good to very good numbers, but never seemed to fully reach expectations until last year. What did the Nucks have more of last year than any year in the last decade? Secondary scoring.

Is it impossible to think that, if healthy, a full year with Penner and Hall, or Penner and Gagner, Hemsky couldn't be an 80-90pt player? If we can agree on that, then why, my (select few) fellow Oiler fans, would we trade a guy that would be the first Oiler to crack 80 pts since Doug Weight (who hasn't been here for nearly a decade)? Hemsky is more important than the "2 young Dmen" this thread is asking for.
Calm down a bit..... Did I ever say The Oilers should trade Hemsky? No, all I want to know is what people think his value is.

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07-10-2010, 11:35 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by pennerstheman View Post
Calm down a bit..... Did I ever say The Oilers should trade Hemsky? No, all I want to know is what people think his value is.
Well, in the future (because I know you've done a couple of "Value of" threads involving him) ask yourself this, "Has any Hemsky proposal thread ever ended on agreeable terms from other teams fans and Oiler fans?" This thread somehow surpassed 300 posts, many of it bickering back and forth with Vancouver fans and Hemsky haters alike.... and the thread didn't even involve one of the biggest Hemsky haters on these boards (Isles Guy).

Free country, who am I to suggest what you should or shouldn't do, just saying these things always turn out the same way.

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07-10-2010, 11:40 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Tedi View Post
Around and around we go. The stats can be skewed anyway a person wants to view them or use them.
Saying a guy who has misses 1 out of every 6 games is injury prone...is SKEWED? Please explain. I'm dying to hear this.

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07-10-2010, 11:47 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Tedi View Post
I agree with you in part. Perception doesn't always equal reality. And most GM's see past that and don't use fan speculation when dealing/signing for players. To me bad backs, concussions, groin and knee problems are injuries worth watching out for. Hemsky has had 2 serious shoulder injuries due in large part to questionable hits. The poster that used 1 out of 6 games lost is skewing data as was the poster who used long term stats. In my profession I have used statical analysis as a tool and stats can be manipulated.
The nature of the injur ies does NOT matter. They guy gets injured. Everywhere. The fact you list the two shoulder injuries as SERIOUS, are concern enough...let alone every other nuisance injury that occurs to the guy. I'm not manipulating anything. This guy's history (i.e. his NHL career) dictates that across all the games he's been able to play, he has to sit out 1 out of 6 because something is wrong with him. Please tell me how I've manipulated that.

Marian Gaborik, by what appears to be a miracle of God...just had himself a fairly healthy season in the first time in like, forever. And he put up good numbers while doing it. Would I count on that trend to continue? No. There isn't a team out there that would trade for Gaborik that still wouldn't take into consideration his injury history. Same goes with players like Marc Savard, Tim Connolly, and Martin Havlat.

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07-10-2010, 12:06 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Retail1LO View Post
The nature of the injur ies does NOT matter. They guy gets injured. Everywhere. The fact you list the two shoulder injuries as SERIOUS, are concern enough...let alone every other nuisance injury that occurs to the guy. I'm not manipulating anything. This guy's history (i.e. his NHL career) dictates that across all the games he's been able to play, he has to sit out 1 out of 6 because something is wrong with him. Please tell me how I've manipulated that.

Marian Gaborik, by what appears to be a miracle of God...just had himself a fairly healthy season in the first time in like, forever. And he put up good numbers while doing it. Would I count on that trend to continue? No. There isn't a team out there that would trade for Gaborik that still wouldn't take into consideration his injury history. Same goes with players like Marc Savard, Tim Connolly, and Martin Havlat.
When a player just had a season where he only played 22 games that is going to skew the data, no doubt about it.

By taking his whole career into account, including the 22 game season, you got a number that wouldn't be accurate to describe the other years of his career.

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07-10-2010, 12:27 PM
  #307
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guunner and schenn for hemsky

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07-10-2010, 12:39 PM
  #308
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When a player just had a season where he only played 22 games that is going to skew the data, no doubt about it.

By taking his whole career into account, including the 22 game season, you got a number that wouldn't be accurate to describe the other years of his career.
Taking away this past season he still averaged almost 10 games lost a season. Thats not a small chunk of time lost each season.

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07-10-2010, 03:25 PM
  #309
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Corrections in bold.
i wonder what my life would be like if correcting spelling was considered fun. thats right a sentence not starting with capitals

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07-10-2010, 05:29 PM
  #310
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guunner and schenn for hemsky
I wouldn't mind that

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07-10-2010, 06:37 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by PasDaSquini View Post
guunner and schenn for hemsky
For a potential 100 point Hemskey, who isn't injury prone, your outta your mind

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07-10-2010, 06:53 PM
  #312
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The thing with Hemsky is that he actually isn't a glass doll, as his GP column would suggest. He is very durable considering how often he gets run. Yes, his injuries would definitely be concerning for any team looking to acquire him. But he has had little to no protection in recent years from the Oiler squad. On a tough physical team like the Flyers or the Ducks he may very well consistently play 82 games a season. I would like to see Hemsky this up coming season with the added toughness provided by Oiler management. And before anyone says "every star players gets targeted", I will refute your claim by saying you have not watched enough Oiler games. Hemsky gets worked more than anyone I have seen in recent years mainly because he never shy's away from the high risk areas.

For the record, I don't see the Oiler management trading Hemsky. Given the recent returns some 'highly touted' trade bait have garnered, Hemsky would fetch less than what it would be worth to keep him. If I had to make a proposal, I would say Hemsky for Douglas Murray and Ryan Clowe, MAYBE a mid range to low pick involved. But I think this would be realistic value for Hemmer.

P.S. I would love to have Murray on this team. One of my favorite D-men in the league.

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07-10-2010, 07:02 PM
  #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soothsayer View Post
The thing with Hemsky is that he actually isn't a glass doll, as his GP column would suggest. He is very durable considering how often he gets run. Yes, his injuries would definitely be concerning for any team looking to acquire him. But he has had little to no protection in recent years from the Oiler squad. On a tough physical team like the Flyers or the Ducks he may very well consistently play 82 games a season. I would like to see Hemsky this up coming season with the added toughness provided by Oiler management. And before anyone says "every star players gets targeted", I will refute your claim by saying you have not watched enough Oiler games. Hemsky gets worked more than anyone I have seen in recent years mainly because he never shy's away from the high risk areas.

For the record, I don't see the Oiler management trading Hemsky. Given the recent returns some 'highly touted' trade bait have garnered, Hemsky would fetch less than what it would be worth to keep him. If I had to make a proposal, I would say Hemsky for Douglas Murray and Ryan Clowe, MAYBE a mid range to low pick involved. But I think this would be realistic value for Hemmer.

P.S. I would love to have Murray on this team. One of my favorite D-men in the league.
I can't stand BS like this. No hard nosed defenseman is going to give Hemsky a pass around the net because the opposing team has Daniel Carcillo and Riley Cote on the bench.

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07-10-2010, 07:13 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Feed Me A Stray Cat View Post
I can't stand BS like this. No hard nosed defenseman is going to give Hemsky a pass around the net because the opposing team has Daniel Carcillo and Riley Cote on the bench.
Just curious, have you ever played hockey before? Hemsky gets hit all the time by big defense-men. It's him getting run head first from behind (Regehr,Hanzal) or elbowed in the head without the puck (Exelby) that causes his injuries. If you think big, physical, tough players don't deter chicken s@*t plays, then you are gravely mistaken. If you understood my post, I don't think you would have called it BS.

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07-10-2010, 07:24 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by soothsayer View Post
Just curious, have you ever played hockey before? Hemsky gets hit all the time by big defense-men. It's him getting run head first from behind (Regehr,Hanzal) or elbowed in the head without the puck (Exelby) that causes his injuries. If you think big, physical, tough players don't deter chicken s@*t plays, then you are gravely mistaken. If you understood my post, I don't think you would have called it BS.
What the hell does playing hockey have to do with it? Unless you played at a professional level I'm not really interested in your opinion. Part of the reason these players are in the NHL is because they don't let goon activity deter their play. If they did they would have dropped out of the game in high school.

If I "understood" your post? Your post isn't very hard to understand. You purport the conventional and outdated view that having a couple tough guys on the bench somehow deters players like Robyn Regehr and Garnet Exelby from doing what they do best - beating the **** out of opposing players. In the heat of the moment no professional NHL player has neanderthals like Riley Cote and Daniel Carcillo in the back of their mind. The instigator rule has completely mitigated the positive value of players like that.

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07-10-2010, 07:39 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by Feed Me A Stray Cat View Post
What the hell does playing hockey have to do with it? Unless you played at a professional level I'm not really interested in your opinion. Part of the reason these players are in the NHL is because they don't let goon activity deter their play. If they did they would have dropped out of the game in high school.

If I "understood" your post? Your post isn't very hard to understand. You purport the conventional and outdated view that having a couple tough guys on the bench somehow deters players like Robyn Regehr and Garnet Exelby from doing what they do best - beating the **** out of opposing players. In the heat of the moment no professional NHL player has neanderthals like Riley Cote and Daniel Carcillo in the back of their mind. The instigator rule has completely mitigated the positive value of players like that.

Because it is the people who play hockey and the people who are close to the sport who assert the importance of intimidation. Someone who has not played a game like hockey would never realize how important it is to feel protected. It absolutely carries over to the professional level and I know this because players say it themselves in interviews not to mention GM's still enroll enforcers. Now why would there be tough guys and physical players if intimidation is not a factor? There is a comfort level that is provided to the skilled players from knowing that they will be defended. On the other side, cheap shot artists are absolutely deterred by a physical presence. I can give you one example in particular. Robyn Regehr is notorious for running the Oilers skilled players, especially Hemsky. He was routinely clocked and knocked out by one of the Oiler tough guys early in the season, and Regehr was never really the same all season against the Oilers after that. To add to that, players have gone ON THE RECORD to say that they would look at the Oiler roster before a game and see a vulnerable line up.

I think the instigator rule and the diminishing role of enforcers have clouded peoples stance of the role that intimidation plays. It is unfortunate because it is a HUGE part of hockey. It would be interesting to see the statistical correlation between injuries and a soft line up. Unfortunately, it would probably be impossible to do so accurately. But just because statistics can't prove it to be true doesn't mean it doesn't exist within the locker rooms around the NHL.

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07-10-2010, 07:45 PM
  #317
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I won't dispute that....all I'm saying is that Hemsky bites off more than he can chew physically. He's got more skill than 95% of the league but he gets smoked a lot. I don't watch a lot of Oiler games, just when they play the Canucks or on HNIC so my sample size isn't as large as an avid Oiler fan, but what I've seen is a guy who gets targetted and punished more than anyone that I can remember in recent history.
He does get smoked a lot. I suspect it's some combination of being targeted by other teams and the fact that he hangs onto the puck too long.

As for why he hangs onto the puck too long, is it because he lacks the hockey sense to get rid of it or that he doesn't trust his teammates to do anything worth a damn with it?

I suspect that being essentially an only child here has prevented Hemsky from getting rid of some bad habits. Ales vs. The World.

Anyway, the way he gets battered is really one of his best qualities. It doesn't seem to put him off his game - if anything, it seems to wake him up. Some joker earlier in this thread was talking about how soft Hemsky was, but it's clear he's never really watched him. He doesn't dish it out, but man can he take it.

When Hemsky gets traded or signs elsewhere, the fans on his new team are going to really enjoy a holy **** moment. He's a wonderful player to watch.

A little maddening too, but is that just who he is or is it the result of him being on an island here as far as having talent to play with. What would a Vanek or Semin or Elias look like if they were surrounded by the pluggers and babes that Hemsky's been given as linemates during the last few years, his "prime" years?

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07-10-2010, 07:50 PM
  #318
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If I am Tambo, I keep Hemsky, no questions asked. Oilers have been searching for top end players to surround him with (Hossa, Heatley, Jagr) and now finally we are surrounding him with a great group of young forwards in Hall, MPS and Eberle. Now is no the time to deal him.

Keep him. Wait to see what he can do with a legitimate scoring threat in Hall. In a few years when Edmonton could be ready to contend he could be a very important piece.

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07-10-2010, 07:56 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by soothsayer View Post
Because it is the people who play hockey and the people who are close to the sport who assert the importance of intimidation. Someone who has not played a game like hockey would never realize how important it is to feel protected. It absolutely carries over to the professional level and I know this because players say it themselves in interviews not to mention GM's still enroll enforcers. Now why would there be tough guys and physical players if intimidation is not a factor? There is a comfort level that is provided to the skilled players from knowing that they will be defended. On the other side, cheap shot artists are absolutely deterred by a physical presence. I can give you one example in particular. Robyn Regehr is notorious for running the Oilers skilled players, especially Hemsky. He was routinely clocked and knocked out by one of the Oiler tough guys early in the season, and Regehr was never really the same all season against the Oilers after that. To add to that, players have gone ON THE RECORD to say that they would look at the Oiler roster before a game and see a vulnerable line up.

I think the instigator rule and the diminishing role of enforcers have clouded peoples stance of the role that intimidation plays. It is unfortunate because it is a HUGE part of hockey. It would be interesting to see the statistical correlation between injuries and a soft line up. Unfortunately, it would probably be impossible to do so accurately. But just because statistics can't prove it to be true doesn't mean it doesn't exist within the locker rooms around the NHL.
If you think players like Robin Regehr or whomever are intimidated by opposing goons that is laughable. It's Regehr's job to play physical and he's not going to lighten up on Hemsky, or anyone else because the opposition has dressed a goon or two. I'm not sure why any player would be intimidated by goons these days, whats the worst he'll do to someone not interested in fighting him? Other than cost his team a PP?

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07-10-2010, 08:05 PM
  #320
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If you think players like Robin Regehr or whomever are intimidated by opposing goons that is laughable. It's Regehr's job to play physical and he's not going to lighten up on Hemsky, or anyone else because the opposition has dressed a goon or two. I'm not sure why any player would be intimidated by goons these days, whats the worst he'll do to someone not interested in fighting him? Other than cost his team a PP?
Lost in translation. I am not saying that guys like Regehr will tone down their regular physical play. I am saying that once he gets his head snapped back, his cheap shots diminish. And they did.

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07-10-2010, 08:15 PM
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Lost in translation. I am not saying that guys like Regehr will tone down their regular physical play. I am saying that once he gets his head snapped back, his cheap shots diminish. And they did.
I think it's probably more due to costing his own team PP's. I'm not a big Regehr fan but he is a pretty smart guy, I think if you give a guy a cheap shot and take a dumb penalty or two if you don't smarten up, the coaches will do it for you. These guys are professionals, I think they are more influenced by the refs, their coaches and teammates (and even their own pride) than their opponents threats of physical punishment.

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07-10-2010, 11:15 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by soothsayer View Post
Because it is the people who play hockey and the people who are close to the sport who assert the importance of intimidation. Someone who has not played a game like hockey would never realize how important it is to feel protected. It absolutely carries over to the professional level and I know this because players say it themselves in interviews not to mention GM's still enroll enforcers. Now why would there be tough guys and physical players if intimidation is not a factor? There is a comfort level that is provided to the skilled players from knowing that they will be defended. On the other side, cheap shot artists are absolutely deterred by a physical presence. I can give you one example in particular. Robyn Regehr is notorious for running the Oilers skilled players, especially Hemsky. He was routinely clocked and knocked out by one of the Oiler tough guys early in the season, and Regehr was never really the same all season against the Oilers after that. To add to that, players have gone ON THE RECORD to say that they would look at the Oiler roster before a game and see a vulnerable line up.

I think the instigator rule and the diminishing role of enforcers have clouded peoples stance of the role that intimidation plays. It is unfortunate because it is a HUGE part of hockey. It would be interesting to see the statistical correlation between injuries and a soft line up. Unfortunately, it would probably be impossible to do so accurately. But just because statistics can't prove it to be true doesn't mean it doesn't exist within the locker rooms around the NHL.
GM's can be idiots. A lot of them are. Citing "why would GM's do this if it wasn't effective" is no proof of your argument. Why do MLB GM's hire managers like Dusty Baker when it's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're retards? Who knows.

Please define a "physical presence". In my book, guys like Riley Cote do not bring a physical presence. He is a slow mother****er who occasionally fights other slow mother****ers. These type of players hardly ever jump cheap shot artists because a) they are hardly ever on the ice (and for good reason) and b) because if they do they'll put their team down a man.

Your subjective impression of Robyn Regehr also proves nothing. You're clearly bringing a bias to this argument and are more likely than not incapable of assessing his play in an objective manner. And I'm curious - if the Oilers had players capable of knocking Regehr out, what the hell is the problem?

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07-11-2010, 02:56 AM
  #323
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Because it is the people who play hockey and the people who are close to the sport who assert the importance of intimidation. Someone who has not played a game like hockey would never realize how important it is to feel protected. It absolutely carries over to the professional level and I know this because players say it themselves in interviews not to mention GM's still enroll enforcers. Now why would there be tough guys and physical players if intimidation is not a factor? There is a comfort level that is provided to the skilled players from knowing that they will be defended. On the other side, cheap shot artists are absolutely deterred by a physical presence. I can give you one example in particular. Robyn Regehr is notorious for running the Oilers skilled players, especially Hemsky. He was routinely clocked and knocked out by one of the Oiler tough guys early in the season, and Regehr was never really the same all season against the Oilers after that. To add to that, players have gone ON THE RECORD to say that they would look at the Oiler roster before a game and see a vulnerable line up.

I think the instigator rule and the diminishing role of enforcers have clouded peoples stance of the role that intimidation plays. It is unfortunate because it is a HUGE part of hockey. It would be interesting to see the statistical correlation between injuries and a soft line up. Unfortunately, it would probably be impossible to do so accurately. But just because statistics can't prove it to be true doesn't mean it doesn't exist within the locker rooms around the NHL.
I've been playing hockey my whole life, pond, street, organized, highschool, and inline; granted, no high level hockey, but still I get the point. Yeah intimidation does play a factor, for some players, but there are tons of guys in the league who could care less if another team has a tough guy ready to jump him for taking out a skill guy. Look at Mark Savard with Matt Cooke, apparently Thornton, Chara, Lucic, and Stuart didn't deter him. People in New York think that Boogaard is gonna protect Gaborick, but if you ask Minny fans they'll tell you otherwise. Then there's the non-drop-the-gloves-tough-guys like Mike Richards, Dustin Brown, or Cal Clutterbuck who lay gigantic CLEAN hits on people. I have a feeling that a lot of Hemskey's injuries, like most other players, come from clean hockey plays. Hemskey's a good player who has some grit, and you bring up thoughtful points, but he's injury prone, plain and simple.

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07-11-2010, 03:43 AM
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I've been playing hockey my whole life, pond, street, organized, highschool, and inline; granted, no high level hockey, but still I get the point. Yeah intimidation does play a factor, for some players, but there are tons of guys in the league who could care less if another team has a tough guy ready to jump him for taking out a skill guy. Look at Mark Savard with Matt Cooke, apparently Thornton, Chara, Lucic, and Stuart didn't deter him. People in New York think that Boogaard is gonna protect Gaborick, but if you ask Minny fans they'll tell you otherwise. Then there's the non-drop-the-gloves-tough-guys like Mike Richards, Dustin Brown, or Cal Clutterbuck who lay gigantic CLEAN hits on people. I have a feeling that a lot of Hemskey's injuries, like most other players, come from clean hockey plays. Hemskey's a good player who has some grit, and you bring up thoughtful points, but he's injury prone, plain and simple.
Honestly... that's not true at all.

Every single time i've seen hemsky get injured to the point where he misses a game its a dirty hit.

Sure he takes alot of clean hits and gets rocked, but he always comes back, the only times he hasn't is when he was either hit from behind, or elbowed without the puck.

I honestly can't think of any time a clean hit has knocked him out of the game.

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07-11-2010, 05:19 AM
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Honestly... that's not true at all.

Every single time i've seen hemsky get injured to the point where he misses a game its a dirty hit.

Sure he takes alot of clean hits and gets rocked, but he always comes back, the only times he hasn't is when he was either hit from behind, or elbowed without the puck.

I honestly can't think of any time a clean hit has knocked him out of the game.
I'll have to get all the oilers tapes from the last few years and get back to you on that.

At this point I've reached my limit talking about a player I don't care much about. I've seen more Oilers games in the last two years on centerice than any Bruins fan should be able to claim to see, but I haven't seen much of Hemskey, so either that proves my point, or it means that he was injured from a dirty hit, that otherwise wouldn't have injured him if it was clean.

Either way, so long as the Bruins don't get him, we have enough goal scorers that can't put it in the net with any regularity. I can see Hemmer and Krejc passing it to eachother for hours, like "you shoot it! No you shoot it!."

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