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Old
07-07-2010, 03:39 PM
  #26
97FlyersKing18
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I understand the pessimist attitude to an extent, but this is more or less the same exact team that every one was pimping last year to take the Atlantic and contend for the Stanley Cup. The 2009-2010 Flyers did accomplish the more meaningful aspect of the predictions, contending for a Cup. Would you rather them be the Sabres or Devils and win a regular season division only to lose to a division foe without putting up much of a fight? Would you rather the Flyers roll through the league like the Capitals did and then run into a hot goalie that neutralizes the only reason the team mopped up the league?

The 2009-2010 Philadelpia Flyers had a Murphy's Law procession with injuries, coaching changes and percieved leadership issues, until the playoffs, where everything went right. Winning is a sure fire cure for discontent.

The 2010-2011 team will have a whole year under Laviolette (training camp is the most interesting aspect of this team going forward) with players that PL feels can succeed in his system. As we saw last year, this team is not built for the rigors of an insignificant regular season where the team plays 3 games in 4 nights in Boston, Buffalo, Montreal and Ottawa (all very different teams with different strenghts and weaknesses) or a homestand hosting New Jersey, Pittsburgh, Washington and Tampa Bay in an 8 day period (all very different teams with different strenghts and weaknesses), they were molded for the grind of the playoffs where they face the same team every other day over a 7 game series.

The 2010-2011 Flyers have a more mature Giroux, JVR and Leino that are playing with confidence, a dynamic player in Scott Hartnell that seems to have broken from his horrific stinker of a regular season, Matt Carle coming off of a positive season, a leadership group of Pronger, Richards, Briere and Timonen that have became a single unit over the course of a long season and playoffs, and most importantly, a coach that knows what he is doing. The Flyers can actually roll 6 defenseman (O'D knows what to do and Meszaros can be an impact player), 2 Top scoring lines, a combustable 3rd line, and a tough 4th line that can also serve as a shut down line with big PK value. Nobody has a clue what Leighton/Boucher will be able to accomplish. They are just as likely to put up great numbers like they did in the 2010 playoffs as they are to stink it up as they did in the Finals. Regular Season accomplishments are meaningless (as long as a playoff berth is locked up), it is all about performance in the playoffs. The 2009-2010 Flyers found a way to get it done when it mattered the most, I am confident the 2010-2011 team will only build upon the Stanley Cup run.

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07-07-2010, 04:34 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by 97FlyersKing18 View Post
I understand the pessimist attitude to an extent, but this is more or less the same exact team that every one was pimping last year to take the Atlantic and contend for the Stanley Cup.
Not really. Last year's team had an actual starter in Emery, Simon Gagne (who may not be here this season), and didn't have severe cap issues. Not to mention that nearly everyone we're competing with got stronger (Vancouver, Pittsburgh, Carolina, arguably NJ, etc.) while we arguably got worse. Last year's team also had the privilege of not having to burden any one goalie with a starter's work-load. It was split between three goalies evenly. Now it's likely that Leighton is going to be given a full starter's work-load despite the fact that the entire body of his career suggests that he isn't a starter.

It's also unlikely that, assuming we make the playoffs, that we'll get the best matchups possible in every round like last year. If we do get past the 1st round next year then it's likely that we'll have to face a Pittsburgh or Washington, two teams that were vastly superior to last year's Boston, NJ, and Montreal (yes, I know Montreal beat both of them).

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The 2009-2010 Flyers did accomplish the more meaningful aspect of the predictions, contending for a Cup. Would you rather them be the Sabres or Devils and win a regular season division only to lose to a division foe without putting up much of a fight? Would you rather the Flyers roll through the league like the Capitals did and then run into a hot goalie that neutralizes the only reason the team mopped up the league?
It's not that black-and-white.

I'd rather Homer actually be a semi-competent GM and follow one of the simplest off-season plans ever as opposed to what he has actually done. What he has actually done, for a comparison, is turn a simple addition problem in math to a complicated calculus problem. For no sensible reason whatsoever.

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The 2009-2010 Philadelpia Flyers had a Murphy's Law procession with injuries, coaching changes and percieved leadership issues, until the playoffs, where everything went right. Winning is a sure fire cure for discontent.
True enough.

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The 2010-2011 team will have a whole year under Laviolette (training camp is the most interesting aspect of this team going forward) with players that PL feels can succeed in his system. As we saw last year, this team is not built for the rigors of an insignificant regular season where the team plays 3 games in 4 nights in Boston, Buffalo, Montreal and Ottawa (all very different teams with different strenghts and weaknesses) or a homestand hosting New Jersey, Pittsburgh, Washington and Tampa Bay in an 8 day period (all very different teams with different strenghts and weaknesses), they were molded for the grind of the playoffs where they face the same team every other day over a 7 game series.
Also true enough, but it doesn't make the situation we're in any better.

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The 2010-2011 Flyers have a more mature Giroux, JVR and Leino that are playing with confidence,
No offense, but this is a stupid point I see all the time from a lot of people. There's two things that make the "maturing of your young players" an invalid argument for why your team is better.

1) The maturing of young players argument can be applied to every single team in the league. NJ has Parise, Zharkov, etc. NJ has Malkin, Crosby, Staal, etc. Even the Rangers have Staal, Dubinsky, Lundqvist, etc. The Islanders have Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, etc. Sure, some teams have more young players then others, but in the end every team can use this argument.

2) It's simply impossible to predict or even guarantee progression. For all you know Giroux could regress and JVR could have a sophomore slump. For all you know they could both become 70 point players. Who knows?

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a dynamic player in Scott Hartnell that seems to have broken from his horrific stinker of a regular season,
This kind of goes against what you were saying earlier about how "our team looks better or as good as last year's team so we should be fine" argument. First of all, there's no guarantee that Hartnell returns to form. He had a good playoff run in the second half of the playoffs and that's it. That's not enough to wipe the memory of an entire season and half of a playoffs of utter crap play. Secondly, even if you know for sure that Hartnell is going to return to form from two years ago, it doesn't help to make us better then how we thought the team would be last year because that's how we expected Hartnell to play going into last year.

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Matt Carle coming off of a positive season,
Awesome? Besides, most Flyers fans will acknowledge that large chunk of that good season was probably due to playing with Pronger 24/7.

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a leadership group of Pronger, Richards, Briere and Timonen that have became a single unit over the course of a long season and playoffs, and most importantly,
Don't see how what the point of this one is. Doesn't help to make us better. We had this very same group last year and almost missed the playoffs and didn't win the Cup.

Besides, leadership is such a bs argument ninety percent of the time. Leadership is purely intangible and the only people who can actually quantify leadership are the players themselves.

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a coach that knows what he is doing.
We had that for the majority of last year as well.

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The Flyers can actually roll 6 defenseman (O'D knows what to do and Meszaros can be an impact player),
Except for the fact that we traded a 2nd rounder for an over-payed top-four d-man so that he could play on our bottom pairing. Talk about excess and pointlessly strengthening a strength. Not to mention that Meszaros is probably the biggest reason why we're in cap trouble and likely will have to make a trade.

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2 Top scoring lines, a combustable 3rd line, and a tough 4th line that can also serve as a shut down line with big PK value.
1) It's really three scoring lines. Which many will argue is a retarded concept because you can't maintain three full scoring lines in today's NHL (which Homer is proving). Aside from getting a starter (which Homer didn't do) and getting a good 3rd pairing d-man (which Homer went over-board with), people will argue that getting an actual, standard 3rd line center should have been our biggest priority. Homer failed to do that too.

2) We had arguably the best 4th line in hockey last year. It may be broken up this year by Jody Shelley. Yay.

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Nobody has a clue what Leighton/Boucher will be able to accomplish.
We don't?

I don't get what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that no one can accurately predict what they'll do or are you saying that none of us know what we're talking about. Because either way it would be a stupid and pointless point.

Many of us are hardcore NHL fans and actually know about players from other teams and player histories. Therefore many of us know what Leighton and Boucher are capable of. Boucher is a quality backup for a proven starter, which Michael Leighton is not. Michael Leighton is waiver-wire fodder who has never proven that he has what it takes to be a goalie in the NHL, let alone a starter in the NHL.

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They are just as likely to put up great numbers like they did in the 2010 playoffs as they are to stink it up as they did in the Finals.
1) Boucher put up horrible regular season numbers (which, albeit, weren't his fault).

2) You're forgetting three major differences between this year and last year. Last year we split the regular season games between three goalies (one of which was an actual starter). We also had an Olympic break to break up play and give our players rest. This year Leighton is likely going to be given a full starter's load with no backup plan whatsoever and no Olympic break to rest. Which basically means disaster for us once or if Leighton implodes (which I'm sure he will).

3) Last year even our playoffs were split between two goalies. Next year, assuming injuries don't interfere, Leighton will likely have to handle full playoffs as well as a full regular season. Not to mention that last year we got the best matchup possible for the first three rounds and all of those teams were incompetent offensively. Once we got to the SCF and didn't get the best matchup possible and had to battle an actual offense, Leighton got torn apart and revealed for what he really was. So if we face another team with an actual offense (like Washington or Pittsburgh) we're screwed if Leighton and Boucher are still our goalies by then.

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Regular Season accomplishments are meaningless (as long as a playoff berth is locked up), it is all about performance in the playoffs. The 2009-2010 Flyers found a way to get it done when it mattered the most, I am confident the 2010-2011 team will only build upon the Stanley Cup run.
They are? The regular season determines who makes the playoffs, who gets what draft pick, determines seeding, determines who plays in the ASG, and you can even win awards for being the best team in your conference. I say that's a hell of a lot that's determined by regular season play.

For instance, last year, if we get 8th place then we're the ones facing Washington and possibly Pittsburgh rather then the Habs. Do you truly believe that we would have beat either or even both of them?

Last year the Flyers found a way to get it done when they were on the verge of being completely eliminated several times. If the Flyers last year were about "getting it done" then they wouldn't have repeatedly put themselves in a hole and instead would have secured their positions rather then constantly being in danger of losing it all.

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07-07-2010, 06:12 PM
  #28
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Wow, thanks for taking the positives out of my posts. Pessimism is rampant on these boards and it is pretty sad, considering only one team can hoist the cup. Sure the Flyers lucked out without having to face Washington or Pittsburgh, but that is not the Flyers fault. It is not the Flyers fault the Capitals were one dimensional and soft or that the Penguins had no defense and average goaltending. It is not the Flyers fault they got to face a team with literally no scoring threats, they just took care of their business in front of them. The Devils, Capitals, Penguins and Canucks have gotten better, but that doesn't mean this 2010-2011 Flyers team can't take them.


The biggest issue I see in your analysis is the Laviolette statements, training camp will absolutely have a major impact on this team. Instead of baking cakes or whatver John was doing, PL will be training his players and getting them in shape. This team will not face 2 10 game losing streaks under Peter Laviolette and play without passion. John Stevens had no system compared to PL and now PL has months to strategize, instead of having to do it on the road in hotels in Nashville, Newark or New York. Also, I would say that Scott Hartnell did not have a "normal" year and a bounce back year would be greatly appreciated. Maturity is key for players like JVR and Giroux, who got to experience what it was like to be in the locker room with guys like Lappy, Pronger, Richards and Briere on a nightly basis. If you don't think having strong leadership in a team sport is meaningless, then your are off base. From my experiences of playing hockey at a very high level, a captain is like a coach on the ice that calms players down in crunch time, reminds players to stick to the fundamentals. Leaders on this Flyers team lead by example, so that makes an even bigger impact than just screaming to go down to block a shot.

The main point of my post was to state that nobody, yourself and myself included, knows exactlty what will happen. Why not wait for the season to start to be dissapointed and disatisfied. Just because all the average joes that think they are hot **** on this board because they took Econ 301 or read PowerSkating for dummies at the thrift shop think the Flyers need something, doesn't mean that experienced professional scouts, economists, managers and coaches with decades of training and working with NHL organizations HAVE to agree. We as fans have literally no impact on the team, so no need to over analyze. People make mistakes, I am sure janitors makes mistakes cleaning toilets just like PH makes mistakes with cap money. Hartnell doesn't clear the puck out of the zone and Giroux doesn't shoot enough. We all "knew 100%" that Leighton would suck when we signed him and the team would be stuck in 14th place when Emery and Boucher went down. You don't think PL or PH had a say in picking up Leighton off the wire? Leighton only goes on an amazing run and salvages the confidence of the team and propells them into a playoff spot, until he gets injured and Boucher has to come in after not seeing rubber in weeks. It is a crapshoot whether Leighton comes in and amazes us all with his new goaltending style, just like it is a crapshoot he will come in and reverts to his old form. As I stated, winning helps ease the tension and Leighton won (last year) and will prove he can do it again. Fickle fans will be back always come back to the bandwagon.

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07-07-2010, 07:23 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by 97FlyersKing18 View Post
Wow, thanks for taking the positives out of my posts. Pessimism is rampant on these boards and it is pretty sad, considering only one team can hoist the cup. Sure the Flyers lucked out without having to face Washington or Pittsburgh, but that is not the Flyers fault. It is not the Flyers fault the Capitals were one dimensional and soft or that the Penguins had no defense and average goaltending. It is not the Flyers fault they got to face a team with literally no scoring threats, they just took care of their business in front of them. The Devils, Capitals, Penguins and Canucks have gotten better, but that doesn't mean this 2010-2011 Flyers team can't take them.


The biggest issue I see in your analysis is the Laviolette statements, training camp will absolutely have a major impact on this team. Instead of baking cakes or whatver John was doing, PL will be training his players and getting them in shape. This team will not face 2 10 game losing streaks under Peter Laviolette and play without passion. John Stevens had no system compared to PL and now PL has months to strategize, instead of having to do it on the road in hotels in Nashville, Newark or New York.
It is funny how you agree with what the "pessimists" said about John Stevens over the last few seasons but now disagree with them. Why bring pessimism into it at all? First, it's not pessimism if it is true. Second, from your own statements, you obviously don't think an opinion is pessimistic if you agree with it (such as Stevens being a d-bag.)

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07-07-2010, 08:00 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Valhoun;
It is funny how you agree with what the "pessimists" said about John Stevens over the last few seasons but now disagree with them. Why bring pessimism into it at all? First, it's not pessimism if it is true. Second, from your own statements, you obviously don't think an opinion is pessimistic if you agree with it (such as Stevens being a d-bag.)
Just because one is positive toward the team 'in general' doesn't mean we are stupid and blind! Even I would agree with stevens critics or that hartnell had a terrible team or that Boucher was really bad in net for most of the year. However, I am not questioning every move the teAM makes or demanding richards have the c ripped fr his jersey, etc. The negative tone on these boards is very harsh on guys that simply don't deserve it. It may be just me, but I don't like havingy team ripped to shreads by other 'fans' of the team. The funny thing is, if a fan of another team posted similar comments, the same fans would defend our team and rip that guy. I defend my favorite players and management..

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07-07-2010, 08:32 PM
  #31
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I meant pessimism on HF boards in general, not just the Flyers board. Although the Flyers board seems to be leading the charge in that area. John Stevens did a great job with a lot of the young players on this team in terms of learning how to be professionals and how to be successful. Steven's teachings just became stale and to be honest he was too stubborn/lifeless to make a significant change. Since I am sure you do not remember, I actually started a "Thanks Stevens" thread after he was fired and got bombarded by posters who felt Stevens had ZERO positive affect on players in the Flyers young core like Richards, Carter, and Coburn.

To me, it feels like Flyers fans feel a sense of entitlement to having the best team always. I am not saying it is unwarranted because a lot of us put a great deal of money, time and emotions into following the team, but like it or not, the Flyers are not going to win the Stanley Cup every single year. Not every team can be the Yankees, Lakers, or Red Wings and 3-5 Championships in a decade. I feel that we as FANS owe it to the players we look up to as role models to give them the benefit of the doubt in this situation, considering they have yet to play a single game and played well enough in the playoffs to win a Stanley Cup in 2010.

This is a predictions thread, if ANY of us knew exactly what would happen tomorrow, we would all be Lottery Winners and I wouldn't resort to posting my feelings about the Flyers on a superficial message board.

Take a step back, get some perspective on the glory of the Philadelphia Flyers as an elite NHL franchise and enjoy the ride. If we are too busy bickering and criticizing, we will miss miraculous plays by Giroux, defensive gems by Timonen, absolute snipes by Carter, selfless shot blocks by Richards and key face-off wins by Betts. Enough with the Hartnell should have shot it higher, Carter should have shot it lower, Briere should have hit a streaking Giroux in the slot. Enjoy the world class athletes like Richards, Carter, Pronger, Timonen and Briere that Philadelphia contains on its' sports teams, before they turn into Brian Savage, Petr Nedved and Lassi Kukkonen.

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07-07-2010, 08:53 PM
  #32
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Well said....your not alone! Now I expect u to be thrashed...

what a great post! Anyone else feel the same?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97FlyersKing18 View Post
I meant pessimism on HF boards in general, not just the Flyers board. Although the Flyers board seems to be leading the charge in that area. John Stevens did a great job with a lot of the young players on this team in terms of learning how to be professionals and how to be successful. Steven's teachings just became stale and to be honest he was too stubborn/lifeless to make a significant change. Since I am sure you do not remember, I actually started a "Thanks Stevens" thread after he was fired and got bombarded by posters who felt Stevens had ZERO positive affect on players in the Flyers young core like Richards, Carter, and Coburn.

To me, it feels like Flyers fans feel a sense of entitlement to having the best team always. I am not saying it is unwarranted because a lot of us put a great deal of money, time and emotions into following the team, but like it or not, the Flyers are not going to win the Stanley Cup every single year. Not every team can be the Yankees, Lakers, or Red Wings and 3-5 Championships in a decade. I feel that we as FANS owe it to the players we look up to as role models to give them the benefit of the doubt in this situation, considering they have yet to play a single game and played well enough in the playoffs to win a Stanley Cup in 2010.

This is a predictions thread, if ANY of us knew exactly what would happen tomorrow, we would all be Lottery Winners and I wouldn't resort to posting my feelings about the Flyers on a superficial message board.

Take a step back, get some perspective on the glory of the Philadelphia Flyers as an elite NHL franchise and enjoy the ride. If we are too busy bickering and criticizing, we will miss miraculous plays by Giroux, defensive gems by Timonen, absolute snipes by Carter, selfless shot blocks by Richards and key face-off wins by Betts. Enough with the Hartnell should have shot it higher, Carter should have shot it lower, Briere should have hit a streaking Giroux in the slot. Enjoy the world class athletes like Richards, Carter, Pronger, Timonen and Briere that Philadelphia contains on its' sports teams, before they turn into Brian Savage, Petr Nedved and Lassi Kukkonen.

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07-07-2010, 09:03 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by 97FlyersKing18 View Post
To me, it feels like Flyers fans feel a sense of entitlement to having the best team always. I am not saying it is unwarranted because a lot of us put a great deal of money, time and emotions into following the team, but like it or not, the Flyers are not going to win the Stanley Cup every single year. Not every team can be the Yankees, Lakers, or Red Wings and 3-5 Championships in a decade. I feel that we as FANS owe it to the players we look up to as role models to give them the benefit of the doubt in this situation, considering they have yet to play a single game and played well enough in the playoffs to win a Stanley Cup in 2010.
Say what you will about Snider but he did absolutely instill a culture of winning for the Flyers. Yes, for various reasons they've been brutal in the SCF since the 70s but not making the playoffs is abject failure. This is a club that, rightly so, expects to make a deep playoff run each and every year. It is not wrong to hold this franchise to the high standards that it wishes to hold itself to. This isn't some ****** southern team content with a playoff series win every 5 or 10 years.

And 90% of players are absolutely not role models. They are athletes.

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07-07-2010, 09:18 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Valhoun;
Say what you will about Snider but he did absolutely instill a culture of winning for the Flyers. Yes, for various reasons they've been brutal in the SCF since the 70s but not making the playoffs is abject failure. This is a club that, rightly so, expects to make a deep playoff run each and every year. It is not wrong to hold this franchise to the high standards that it wishes to hold itself to. This isn't some ****** southern team content with a playoff series win every 5 or 10 years.

And 90% of players are absolutely not role models. They are athletes.
Agreed! But isn't it weird that we were 2 games from winning the cup and the mood on these boards even during that great run was very negative? After that kind of run guys like briere, pronger, leighton, richards, gagne should be applauded....not here!

I know leighton had a terrible scf, but he and bouch had a great run....

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07-07-2010, 09:30 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
Say what you will about Snider but he did absolutely instill a culture of winning for the Flyers. Yes, for various reasons they've been brutal in the SCF since the 70s but not making the playoffs is abject failure. This is a club that, rightly so, expects to make a deep playoff run each and every year. It is not wrong to hold this franchise to the high standards that it wishes to hold itself to. This isn't some ****** southern team content with a playoff series win every 5 or 10 years.

And 90% of players are absolutely not role models. They are athletes.

I commend Snider and his strive for being the best, he is a wonderful owner that would be an upgrade to the current owner of almost every single sports Franchise in America. The Flyers are an elite NHL franchise, but any fan of any team EXPECTING a Stanley Cup every single year is setting the bar too high with the way the current NHL is situated and the high degree of parity in the league. HOPING for a deep playoff run is fine and that is the mindset Flyers fans should take, year in and year out.

I respectfully disagree with your role model statement, it is not like young Philly aspires to be an accountant working 9-5 on an excel spreadsheet in a cubicle for his entire adult life or as a sanitation engineer working the graveyard shift. He wants to be a sports star and make money and have fame and glory. It is the way life is now, with ESPN running the world and tabloids exploiting secrets. In addition to HOPING for a title on the ice, gridiron, basketball court or diamond, Little Philly wants to grow up to be like Mike Richards and be a leader with his play on the ice, be like Ryan Howard and his charity, Dikembe Mutombo for his foundations in Africa and Donovan McNabb for his dedication to the community. Almost every athlete has worked and tireless trained his or her entire life to compete on the biggest stage, I don't see a reason why a good work ethic are negative traits.

This may come as a surprise, but there is a higher ratio of DUIs (The biggest wrong in my book) among the general population than Professional Athletes. I would rather a child has dreams of becoming a big league star, rather than ending up like his deadbeat drunk father with no future. Humans in general are greedy, stupid and selfish, why not lead them along with hopes and dreams of becoming something truly great, rather than the status quo of their community. Even if a child/franchise fails to become glorious and sits in a cube all day, there were still fun, intelligent, and interesting times along the way that should not be discounted.

For every athlete that takes drugs, cheats the game and its fans, acts recklessly or kills another human or animal there are hundreds of athletes that are clean, law abiding citizens that I would consider outstanding role models. Just like on HF, a single bad apple running his or her mouth ruins the experience/reputation for the rest of us. I would say the number of athlete role models is closer to 90% positive than 10% positive.

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07-07-2010, 09:51 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by 97FlyersKing18 View Post
This may come as a surprise, but there is a higher ratio of DUIs (The biggest wrong in my book) among the general population than Professional Athletes.
I can guarantee that is due to athletes living in major cities with public transportation or widespread limousine services. NYC has extremely low rates of DUI arrests for just that reason. And, also, how many DUIs do athletes get out of for being famous? Obviously there are no hard stats on that but it is probably a safe bet that it is enough to be statistically significant.

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07-08-2010, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
I can guarantee that is due to athletes living in major cities with public transportation or widespread limousine services. NYC has extremely low rates of DUI arrests for just that reason. And, also, how many DUIs do athletes get out of for being famous? Obviously there are no hard stats on that but it is probably a safe bet that it is enough to be statistically significant.
That is also because no cop wants to risk their life pulling over a person in any major city for "drunk driving," just to get shot in the face by some ****ing *******.

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