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Tired of beating the winners

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Old
07-07-2010, 06:02 PM
  #1
torero
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Tired of beating the winners

I am tired to beat the winners. I want us to finaly win something but ... it sounds irealistic in the short term.

Hockey
We went to Shoot out with the Olympic champion. (Canada)
We beat the World champion (Czech Republic)
A Swiss team beat the Stanley Cup Champion (ZSC Lions beat Chicago Black Hawks for the Victoria Cup)

Soccer
Our juniors became Junior world Champions
If Spaniards win it on Sunday, we will be the only team having beaten them !!!

Seriously! can't we behave normaly ?? and loose against those teams and qualify for the semifinals ?? Please ?

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07-07-2010, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by torero View Post
I am tired to beat the winners. I want us to finaly win something but ... it sounds irealistic in the short term.

Hockey
We went to Shoot out with the Olympic champion. (Canada)
We beat the World champion (Czech Republic)
A Swiss team beat the Stanley Cup Champion (ZSC Lions beat Chicago Black Hawks for the Victoria Cup)

Soccer
Our juniors became Junior world Champions
If Spaniards win it on Sunday, we will be the only team having beaten them !!!

Seriously! can't we behave normaly ?? and loose against those teams and qualify for the semifinals ?? Please ?
SWI had two goal-scoring-chances vs Spain, GER just one... To be fair... ESP was two classes better than we Swiss... and still lost...smile... and one class better than GER. ESP players are individually so unbelievable good. The ball glues on their shoes even after difficult passes, they make the other team run so much without the ball and wait and wait and wait very patiently until you get more and more tired and finally make these tiny small mistakes what allows to create a goal-scoring-chance. ESP is unbelievable good. GER was really overrated before that game, GER is now top4 in the world but still not on the level of Spain or Brasil.
Thomas Roost

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07-08-2010, 12:41 PM
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smitty10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torero View Post
I am tired to beat the winners. I want us to finaly win something but ... it sounds irealistic in the short term.

Hockey
We went to Shoot out with the Olympic champion. (Canada)
We beat the World champion (Czech Republic)
A Swiss team beat the Stanley Cup Champion (ZSC Lions beat Chicago Black Hawks for the Victoria Cup)

Soccer
Our juniors became Junior world Champions
If Spaniards win it on Sunday, we will be the only team having beaten them !!!

Seriously! can't we behave normaly ?? and loose against those teams and qualify for the semifinals ?? Please ?
Switzerland is very mediocre at both sports and judging by the last line you wrote, you are very content with that.

Be happy that they beat the Czech's and Canadian's, because it's not something they should expect very often. Both countries are head and shoulders above the Swiss and many countries are starting to gain ground on them. You guys have a good young generation coming up though (Niedereitter, Sbisa, Josi) so hopefully that will translate to a few more wins.

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07-08-2010, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
Switzerland is very mediocre at both sports and judging by the last line you wrote, you are very content with that.

Be happy that they beat the Czech's and Canadian's, because it's not something they should expect very often. Both countries are head and shoulders above the Swiss and many countries are starting to gain ground on them. You guys have a good young generation coming up though (Niedereitter, Sbisa, Josi) so hopefully that will translate to a few more wins.
Right you are, but not in that extent. Canada is head and shoulders above us in hockey and probably always will be but not the Czechs anymore. I guess the Czechs just have the head above us and not the shoulders anymore. The Swiss program is solid and they will improve their program even a little bit in the near future. The Czech program is definitely not on the level it was in the past, they have some problems so our hockey became closer.

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07-09-2010, 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Pokechecker View Post
Right you are, but not in that extent. Canada is head and shoulders above us in hockey and probably always will be but not the Czechs anymore. I guess the Czechs just have the head above us and not the shoulders anymore. The Swiss program is solid and they will improve their program even a little bit in the near future. The Czech program is definitely not on the level it was in the past, they have some problems so our hockey became closer.

Thomas Roost
I'd be careful with such statements. It was said some times ago that Sweden was getting older and would experience a drop in quality once the Sundin generation retires and it never happened. Latvia was expected to fall from the face of earth when the soviet era players were growing older but is now arguably better than in the 90's.

Sure, teams' expectations can shift from winning a tourament to hoping to make it to the semis, or from qualifying for the knock out round to avoiding relegation, but I don't think anyone should expect a significant shift in the hockey world order just because a team's core is getting older and prospects are slow to come.

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07-09-2010, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by stv11 View Post
I'd be careful with such statements. It was said some times ago that Sweden was getting older and would experience a drop in quality once the Sundin generation retires and it never happened. Latvia was expected to fall from the face of earth when the soviet era players were growing older but is now arguably better than in the 90's.

Sure, teams' expectations can shift from winning a tourament to hoping to make it to the semis, or from qualifying for the knock out round to avoiding relegation, but I don't think anyone should expect a significant shift in the hockey world order just because a team's core is getting older and prospects are slow to come.
I agree with you that it would be wrong to expect a significant shift in the hockey-world-ranking-order. In fact the hockey-world-ranking is as stable as a fire-hydrant but still there are small tendencies and because I follow the international junior-hockey since 15 years very close I do dare to talk about these small tendencies and they are in my eyes as follows:
1. Canada - 95/100 points
Had some small problems around 10 years ago, when I thought that the Europeans have a slight edge in the skating-department and partly with the hand-skills. It did change. In the last couple of years Canada did come back very strong. A lot of strong power-skaters, every year some guys with really good hand-skills and overall still standing strong for No.1
2. USA - 93/100 points
Biggest improvement in the last couple of years of all hockey-countries. Every year a lot of excellent skaters (powerskating), very dynamic players, passionate players, good skills. The US-junior-program results in the tendency to close the gap to Canada.
3. Sweden - 92/100 points
Biggest improvement lately of all European countries. Unbelievable good basic-educated young players. Skating, hand-skills, physical development, tactical-behaviour. I think Sweden has the best program together with the US-Ann-Arbour. Maybe the teams still lack a tiny little bit positive aggressivity and sometimes grit but still: I'm very impressed.
4. Russia - 89/100 points
Russia did fall a bit in the ranking, not necessarily because they did do really bad - they still have year by year some good talent, I think their slight falling has more to do with the big improvement of the US- and the Swedish-program.
5. Finland - 80/100 points
Finland is besides Canada the only real hockey-country. They still don't produce the skillful players Sweden does but they also start to improve their program and try to follow the Swedish foot-steps.
6. Czech Rep. - 77/100 points
Not so long ago the Czechs were on top in Europe, close together with Russia. Then the Swedish-program did come along, the Russians stayed more or less the same and sadly enough I see a small decline of the Czech program lately.
7. Switzerland - 73/100 points
Compared with other countries we had a very good program 10 years ago but then other countries did take their next step and the Swiss did just stay where they were, not much improvement in the last 10 years. Now there are some signs of small further improvement in the next couple of years, e.g. Swiss hockey-academy.
8. Slovakia - 72/100 points
Similar situation than the Czech Republic but still producing every secons or third year the one or the other very skillful player. Some problems and in the tendency a bit declining but still a hockey-country
9. Germany - 71/100 points
Germany has an underrated program and in some melting-points (Mannheim, Bavaria) they still produce some nice players and they did do even a bit more lately. GER/SWI and SLK are very close.
10. Belarus - 69/100 points
A lot of money in the program and some basically well educated players (skating, handskills) but should try to become more competitive and have more games vs NA-teams what probably would help a bit.
11. Denmark - 68/100 points
Some really good young players lately, thanks to the possibility to move to Swedish programs at a very young age. Good, skillful, enthusiastic and optimistic players, still lack a bit individual tactical and disciplined behaviour sometimes on the ice. Not as good without the puck as the Swiss e.g.
12. Norway - 67/100 points
Norway did improve in the last two years, I'm impressed. They produced the one or the other player and I hope it's not just a fluke. I don't know their program in detail but I read and listen about some indications that this is not just one or two good age-groups, it seems to be a real improvement.

So, these are my spontaneous thoughts at this point in July 2010.

I'm ready to discuss.

Thomas Roost
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07-09-2010, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Pokechecker View Post
I agree with you that it would be wrong to expect a significant shift in the hockey-world-ranking-order. In fact the hockey-world-ranking is as stable as a fire-hydrant but still there are small tendencies and because I follow the international junior-hockey since 15 years very close I do dare to talk about these small tendencies and they are in my eyes as follows:
1. Canada - 95/100 points
Had some small problems around 10 years ago, when I thought that the Europeans have a slight edge in the skating-department and partly with the hand-skills. It did change. In the last couple of years Canada did come back very strong. A lot of strong power-skaters, every year some guys with really good hand-skills and overall still standing strong for No.1
2. USA - 93/100 points
Biggest improvement in the last couple of years of all hockey-countries. Every year a lot of excellent skaters (powerskating), very dynamic players, passionate players, good skills. The US-junior-program results in the tendency to close the gap to Canada.
3. Sweden - 92/100 points
Biggest improvement lately of all European countries. Unbelievable good basic-educated young players. Skating, hand-skills, physical development, tactical-behaviour. I think Sweden has the best program together with the US-Ann-Arbour. Maybe the teams still lack a tiny little bit positive aggressivity and sometimes grit but still: I'm very impressed.
4. Russia - 89/100 points
Russia did fall a bit in the ranking, not necessarily because they did do really bad - they still have year by year some good talent, I think their slight falling has more to do with the big improvement of the US- and the Swedish-program.
5. Finland - 80/100 points
Finland is besides Canada the only real hockey-country. They still don't produce the skillful players Sweden does but they also start to improve their program and try to follow the Swedish foot-steps.
6. Czech Rep. - 77/100 points
Not so long ago the Czechs were on top in Europe, close together with Russia. Then the Swedish-program did come along, the Russians stayed more or less the same and sadly enough I see a small decline of the Czech program lately.
7. Switzerland - 73/100 points
Compared with other countries we had a very good program 10 years ago but then other countries did take their next step and the Swiss did just stay where they were, not much improvement in the last 10 years. Now there are some signs of small further improvement in the next couple of years, e.g. Swiss hockey-academy.
8. Slovakia - 72/100 points
Similar situation than the Czech Republic but still producing every secons or third year the one or the other very skillful player. Some problems and in the tendency a bit declining but still a hockey-country
9. Germany - 71/100 points
Germany has an underrated program and in some melting-points (Mannheim, Bavaria) they still produce some nice players and they did do even a bit more lately. GER/SWI and SLK are very close.
10. Belarus - 69/100 points
A lot of money in the program and some basically well educated players (skating, handskills) but should try to become more competitive and have more games vs NA-teams what probably would help a bit.
11. Denmark - 68/100 points
Some really good young players lately, thanks to the possibility to move to Swedish programs at a very young age. Good, skillful, enthusiastic and optimistic players, still lack a bit individual tactical and disciplined behaviour sometimes on the ice. Not as good without the puck as the Swiss e.g.
12. Norway - 67/100 points
Norway did improve in the last two years, I'm impressed. They produced the one or the other player and I hope it's not just a fluke. I don't know their program in detail but I read and listen about some indications that this is not just one or two good age-groups, it seems to be a real improvement.

So, these are my spontaneous thoughts at this point in July 2010.

I'm ready to discuss.

Thomas Roost
Central Scouting Europe / NHL
I really think that you are overrating the Swiss. The Slovaks and Czechs may be in decline, but they are still much better than the Swiss. Take a look at the amount of them playing and being drafted in the NHL and KHL compared to Swiss players and this will prove my point. The German's and Swiss are very close in calibur, but with guys like Chara, Hossa, Gaborik and Visnovski the Slovaks still have the upperhand by quite a distance.

I don't quite understand why you are grouping the Czech's in this group as well. They are definately head and shoulders above the Swiss at this point and look to remain so in the future. Who do the Swiss have that can match current players like:Jagr, Krejci, Elias, Kaberle,Z and M Michalek, Havlat, Erat, Hejduk, Kubina, Vrbata, Vokoun, Hemsky, etc? Or what young/up and coming players do the Swiss have that can match: Voracek, Tlusty, Frolik, Kindl, Pavelec, Smid, Neuvirth, Polak, Sobotka, Hanzal or Repik?

Switzerland has looked to be on the verge of breaking out now for the last 10+ years, yet still haven't taken that step to join the "Big 7". Until they win a medal in a major tournament (WC, OG, etc.) they can't be grouped with those other teams, even if IIHF rankings place the Swiss in 7th+. Teams like Denmark, Norway, and Germany all look to have the potential to be as good as the Swiss in the coming years.


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07-09-2010, 10:10 AM
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I really think that you are overrating the Swiss. The Slovaks and Czechs may be in decline, but they are still much better than the Swiss. Take a look at the amount of them playing and being drafted in the NHL and KHL compared to Swiss players and this will prove my point. The German's and Swiss are very close in calibur, but with guys like Chara, Hossa, Gaborik and Visnovski the Slovaks still have the upperhand by quite a distance.

I don't quite understand why you are grouping the Czech's in this group as well. They are definately head and shoulders above the Swiss at this point and look to remain so in the future. Who do the Swiss have that can match current players like:Jagr, Krejci, Elias, Kaberle,Z and M Michalek, Havlat, Erat, Hejduk, Kubina, Vrbata, Vokoun, Hemsky, etc? Or what young/up and coming players do the Swiss have that can match: Voracek, Tlusty, Frolik, Kindl, Pavelec, Smid, Neuvirth, Polak, Sobotka or Repik?

Switzerland has looked to be on the verge of breaking out now for the last 10+ years, yet still haven't taken that step to join the "Big 7". Until they win a medal in a major tournament (WC, OG, etc.) they can't be grouped with those other teams, even if IIHF rankings place the Swiss in 7th+. Teams like Denmark, Norway, and Germany all look to have the potential to be as good as the Swiss in the coming years.

It's funny and interesting that I finally did find someone who thinks that I'm overrating the Swiss hockey-development. Usually all posters in all forums basically think that I'm too critical with the Swiss and that I definitely underrate them... ok - nearly all these posters are Swiss and you seem to be a Toronto-guy and I do respect the average hockey-knowledge of Toronto-guys since I discussed a lot of hockey with guys living in this great area in and around Toronto. But still I dare not to agree with everything.

Basically you have to understand that I do judge with my rankings what is going to be and not what is now and was last year and definitely not what was in the last 3-10 years. With my rankings I don't take into consideration age-groups with players like Jagr, Sundin, Satan and so on. I judge what happened in juniors approx. in the last 3 years and what will happen in juniors in the next 3 years. I absolutely respect that we don't have players in a "Gaborik, Chara-category" - but tell me - when did the Slovaks produce such caliber-players lately - it was years ago... not anymore...

Yes, I agree, that Germany, Norway and Denmark are nearly on our level already, it's really very close but we still have the slight edge and there are some indications that it will be not easy for these countries to overtake us in the next couple of years, they will be equal at best but our programm will make some small steps in the right direction.

No, I don't agree with you that the Slovaks still have an edge over the Swiss in international junior-competitions. The games between them are since maybe three years VERY equal with Swiss having a little better teams and the Slovaks have still the small edge with their top-players but actually also this view is very shaky lately if you look at Josi, Sbisa and Niederreiter. The Czechs did come down a bit but are still better - and I also show this in my ranking and the quality-points - but it's not anymore "head and shoulders-better", no - I don't agree with this. Your first mentioned group with Jagr, Elias, Havlat, Hejduk I do agree with head and shoulders but the second group, the younger group with Voracek, Tlusty, Frolik I don't agree- yes they are still better but not head and shoulders - I can tell you that Josi is really good - you will mark my word - Niederreiter was a top5-pick (with this he might be a bit overrated but he definitely deserved to be a top10-pick), Sbisa is a top-prospect what is supported by a consensus of NHL-scouts. I agree that we still have problems to produce high-end-players but we lately produced a big amount of good players. The proof for this thesis was our team in the last WC - we played with a "B-Team" and still managed to compete with Canada and the Czechs (incl. Jagr) and did beat in a really good game the "A-team" of Latvia.

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Old
07-09-2010, 12:12 PM
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No, I don't agree with you that the Slovaks still have an edge over the Swiss in international junior-competitions. The games between them are since maybe three years VERY equal with Swiss having a little better teams and the Slovaks have still the small edge with their top-players but actually also this view is very shaky lately if you look at Josi, Sbisa and Niederreiter. The Czechs did come down a bit but are still better - and I also show this in my ranking and the quality-points - but it's not anymore "head and shoulders-better", no - I don't agree with this. Your first mentioned group with Jagr, Elias, Havlat, Hejduk I do agree with head and shoulders but the second group, the younger group with Voracek, Tlusty, Frolik I don't agree- yes they are still better but not head and shoulders - I can tell you that Josi is really good - you will mark my word - Niederreiter was a top5-pick (with this he might be a bit overrated but he definitely deserved to be a top10-pick), Sbisa is a top-prospect what is supported by a consensus of NHL-scouts. I agree that we still have problems to produce high-end-players but we lately produced a big amount of good players. The proof for this thesis was our team in the last WC - we played with a "B-Team" and still managed to compete with Canada and the Czechs (incl. Jagr) and did beat in a really good game the "A-team" of Latvia.

Thomas Roost
Central Scouting Europe / NHL
I agree that Sbisa and Neidereitter are top prospects and I've seen Josi play a few times and agree that he is good. That being said, the Czech Republic still have better prospects and young players than Switzerland. The way that I look at it is that Voracek is as good or better than Niedereitter, David Musil is going to be a top 3 pick potentially so > over Sbisa, and although the Czech's don't have 1 player that is equal to Josi, they have more depth in guys like Jordan, Gudas and Polasek.

Here is how you can look at it:

Players under 25 who have or will probably have NHL careers.

Czech Republic
Voracek
Frolik
Musil
Frk
Tlusty
Kindl
Hanzal
Smid
Krejci
Olesz
Neuvirth
Cervenka
Pavelec
Kana
Sobotka
Polak
M. Michalek (26)

Switzerland
Sbisa
Niedereitter
Josi
Weber
Wick
Mayer (born in Czech)
Simek (Slovak born, does he rep. Swiss?)
Jorg
Which country do you think has the better team?

FTR I don't have anything against the Swiss and I hope that they continue to improve because I want hockey to grow everywhere, but I really do think that you are wrong with your analysis of the Swiss. I'm sorry, but that is just my opinion.

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07-09-2010, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
I agree that Sbisa and Neidereitter are top prospects and I've seen Josi play a few times and agree that he is good. That being said, the Czech Republic still have better prospects and young players than Switzerland. The way that I look at it is that Voracek is as good or better than Niedereitter, David Musil is going to be a top 3 pick potentially so > over Sbisa, and although the Czech's don't have 1 player that is equal to Josi, they have more depth in guys like Jordan, Gudas and Polasek.

Here is how you can look at it:

Players under 25 who have or will probably have NHL careers.

Czech Republic
Voracek
Frolik
Musil
Frk
Tlusty
Kindl
Hanzal
Smid
Krejci
Olesz
Neuvirth
Cervenka
Pavelec
Kana
Sobotka
Polak
M. Michalek (26)

Switzerland
Sbisa
Niedereitter
Josi
Weber
Wick
Mayer (born in Czech)
Simek (Slovak born, does he rep. Swiss?)
Jorg
Which country do you think has the better team?

FTR I don't have anything against the Swiss and I hope that they continue to improve because I want hockey to grow everywhere, but I really do think that you are wrong with your analysis of the Swiss. I'm sorry, but that is just my opinion.
I respect your opinion, no question about that and I guess we are not far away with how we see the situation. What you did present me now is the comparison Czech young players and Swiss young players and as I said and my ranking presents: The Czechs are still better - the only difference we have is that in your opinion the Czechs are "head and shoulders" better and in my opinion it's just the head and not the shoulders anymore. Actually I fight more for the comparison Swiss vs Slovaks - I did tell they are equal in this age-group and you did disagree. By the way, yes Simek is Slovak born but represents Switzerland since he played his older junior-years in SWI. No, I don't think that all your listed players will play NHL. Joerg, Simek, Mayer and Weber are still pretty far away from becoming NHL-regulars, the same with some Czech players on your list but there are other young Swiss players who have some potential (e.g. Brunner and the one or the other who just got drafted in the CHL-Import-draft, Baertschi is decent and also the one or the other 93-defenseman who stay in Switzerland. And yes, the Czechs have Frk, he is VERY good, and SWI doesn't have such a caliber in this age-group.

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07-10-2010, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
I agree that Sbisa and Neidereitter are top prospects and I've seen Josi play a few times and agree that he is good. That being said, the Czech Republic still have better prospects and young players than Switzerland. The way that I look at it is that Voracek is as good or better than Niedereitter, David Musil is going to be a top 3 pick potentially so > over Sbisa, and although the Czech's don't have 1 player that is equal to Josi, they have more depth in guys like Jordan, Gudas and Polasek.

Here is how you can look at it:

Players under 25 who have or will probably have NHL careers.

Czech Republic
Voracek
Frolik
Musil
Frk
Tlusty
Kindl
Hanzal
Smid
Krejci
Olesz
Neuvirth
Cervenka
Pavelec
Kana
Sobotka
Polak
M. Michalek (26)

Switzerland
Sbisa
Niedereitter
Josi
Weber
Wick
Mayer (born in Czech)
Simek (Slovak born, does he rep. Swiss?)
Jorg
Which country do you think has the better team?

FTR I don't have anything against the Swiss and I hope that they continue to improve because I want hockey to grow everywhere, but I really do think that you are wrong with your analysis of the Swiss. I'm sorry, but that is just my opinion.
Very interesting and impressive.

Do you include all the young guys that will be playing in Canada next year ... in CHL on the Swiss side or do you also exclude them from the Czech roster ?? (ex Alain Berger, Nils Berger, Dominique Schlumpf, Sven Bartschi ... etc ... )

(I am very ignorant about the Czech players on your list ... therefore I ask this )

My ultimate question being : are we comparing apple to apple and pear to pear with these lists ?

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07-10-2010, 08:35 AM
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I guess your confusing on which nation have more NHLer. In that case, yeah, the Czech or the Slovaks have more players but that doesn't mean they're teams are better than ours.

During the Olympics in Torino in 2006, Swi manage to beat the Czech 3-2, a team which had all their NHL superstars.

Personaly, i think the NHL is overrated.

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07-10-2010, 10:14 AM
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Very interesting and impressive.

Do you include all the young guys that will be playing in Canada next year ... in CHL on the Swiss side or do you also exclude them from the Czech roster ?? (ex Alain Berger, Nils Berger, Dominique Schlumpf, Sven Bartschi ... etc ... )

(I am very ignorant about the Czech players on your list ... therefore I ask this )

My ultimate question being : are we comparing apple to apple and pear to pear with these lists ?
If you look closely, the only two undrafted players on my list are Musil and Frk and I only included them because they are both potential top 5 picks. I didn't include anyone playing in the CHL except for the two I mentioned as well as Sbisa and Niedereitter. I even gave the Swiss a boost by adding Mayer, Simek, Jorg and Weber, so I don't think I'm taking away from them at all.

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Originally Posted by TheNextOneX View Post
I guess your confusing on which nation have more NHLer. In that case, yeah, the Czech or the Slovaks have more players but that doesn't mean they're teams are better than ours.

During the Olympics in Torino in 2006, Swi manage to beat the Czech 3-2, a team which had all their NHL superstars.

Personaly, i think the NHL is overrated.
The Swiss also managed to beat Canada twice, but that doesn't mean that they're better than Canada. Teams get lucky sometimes and pull off wins against far superior opponents. It's part of the sport.

Why is it that you think the NHL is overrated? You realize that the league minimum is around $500K per season, right? They don't take just anyone from this league, it is the best league in the world because they can attract the best players. Why else do you think players like Ovechkin, Malkin, Semin, Kovy, the Sedin's, Lidstrom, Chara, Hiller and the rest of the European players that can make it come over to play? These guys could make the same, if not more money in the KHL, but they all stay because it's the NHL.

Look at the European leagues. Outside of a few guys in the KHL (Nabby, Jagr, Radulov, etc.) the majority of the players in those leagues are AHL/ECHL calibur players who go back home (or NA's go over) to collect a bigger paycheck because they can't crack NHL rosters. If they could make an NHL team, I bet you the vast majority of them would be over here making $700k+ per season instead of the $150kish they make in Europe.

So please, explain to me why you think the NHL is overrated.

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07-10-2010, 10:35 AM
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The Swiss also managed to beat Canada twice, but that doesn't mean that they're better than Canada. Teams get lucky sometimes and pull off wins against far superior opponents. It's part of the sport.

Why is it that you think the NHL is overrated? You realize that the league minimum is around $500K per season, right? They don't take just anyone from this league, it is the best league in the world because they can attract the best players. Why else do you think players like Ovechkin, Malkin, Semin, Kovy, the Sedin's, Lidstrom, Chara, Hiller and the rest of the European players that can make it come over to play? These guys could make the same, if not more money in the KHL, but they all stay because it's the NHL.

Look at the European leagues. Outside of a few guys in the KHL (Nabby, Jagr, Radulov, etc.) the majority of the players in those leagues are AHL/ECHL calibur players who go back home (or NA's go over) to collect a bigger paycheck because they can't crack NHL rosters. If they could make an NHL team, I bet you the vast majority of them would be over here making $700k+ per season instead of the $150kish they make in Europe.

So please, explain to me why you think the NHL is overrated.
I'm not disputing on why superstars names such as you mentions, prefer the NHL over the KHL. However you have to confess some big names did choose the KHL for moneys and there is no guarantee that Kovy will return in the NHL, and Malkin have said that he wants to win the Stanley cup before thinking going back to his homeland. Once his contract ends up, we'll see if he wants to play in the KHL. Ovechkin and Semin was approached by Dynamo but they have a lifetime contract with their franchise organizations. Ovechkin threaten to leave the NHL for the KHL if Bettman doesn't release NHL players for the Olympics in Sochi.

The NHL is overrated IMO because if you look at the Olympics in Torino and WHC where teams such as Italy,Germany, Belarus, Latvia with practicaly no NHL star, still manage to put a fight with Canada and other big nations, and lose by only a few goals...

Those so called "little nation" are now catching up with the so-called "big-nations" and they did with practicaly no NHL superstars.

And that's the reason why i think the NHL is overrated.

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07-10-2010, 11:05 AM
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I also believe that the "NHL" tag as to say that a player is good is overrated.

most of the world best players are their. OK

Their are many "cheap" players that are their as well. The "NHL" tag for these ones is overrated.

Therefore measuring the level of countries by the number of NHL players is innapropriate.

Specially for us, since we have a very decent league. Many Swiss players stay at home.
Unlike the Danes or others ... .

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07-10-2010, 11:06 AM
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I'm not disputing on why superstars names such as you mentions, prefer the NHL over the KHL. However you have to confess some big names did choose the KHL for moneys and there is no guarantee that Kovy will return in the NHL, and Malkin have said that he wants to win the Stanley cup before thinking going back to his homeland. Once his contract ends up, we'll see if he wants to play in the KHL. Ovechkin and Semin was approached by Dynamo but they have a lifetime contract with their franchise organizations. Ovechkin threaten to leave the NHL for the KHL if Bettman doesn't release NHL players for the Olympics in Sochi.

The NHL is overrated IMO because if you look at the Olympics in Torino and WHC where teams such as Italy,Germany, Belarus, Latvia with practicaly no NHL star, still manage to put a fight with Canada and other big nations, and lose by only a few goals...

Those so called "little nation" are now catching up with the so-called "big-nations" and they did with practicaly no NHL superstars.

And that's the reason why i think the NHL is overrated.
Ok, your post is full of speculation, but none of what you say really disproves me. Kovy is a grey area because we don't know what he will do. Ovechkin and Semin on the other hand are perfect examples of guys who don't want to play in the KHL. Semin just signed a 1 year extension so that he can remain a member of the Caps, while Ovechkin signed a 13 year contract extension! He could have easily walked, but he has stated that he wants to play here. Also, look at Malkin. He signed 7 or so year extension to stay in Pittsburgh. Who cares if they talk to those teams? They aren't going to leave the NHL to go play there until they aren't good enough to be NHL stars.

Why are you bringing up Torino and the WC as proof that the NHL is overrated? You really believe that those nations are catching up? Or do you think they may just be improving? Either way look at the best players on each team: Belarus- Grabo, Kostitsyn bro's, Salei, Koltsov, Kalyuzhin, Denisov. The first four are in the NHL and the last three couldn't cut it (Kalyuzhin wasn't drafted). Germany has Hecht, Sturm, Ehrhoff, Seidenberg, Sulzer, Holzer, Goc, Schubert, Greiss, Endras who all have current or last season had NHL contracts. Italy has 0 players in the NHL or KHL. Latvia has Bartulis, Kulda, Skratsins, Daugavins, Karsums, Sprukts with the last two not being able to crack the NHL full time, while being given ample opportunity.

I don't see where you're going with this. The best players on all of those teams play in NHL organizations. The score in a few games at an Olympics in 2006 doesn't really have any impact on today and WC's are not really a good tournament to judge nations by because most of them are missing their best players because of the playoffs. These small nations aren't catching up, they are just improving. As long as Canada, Russia, Sweden and USA all continue to produce top end NHL talent, these nations will continue to dominate. Look at any of the rosters I just mentioned from the 2010 Olympics and show me how any of Latvia, Belarus, Germany, Switzerland or Italy are catching up. Look at the amount of players being drafted from each and that will give you a good idea on how amazing they are getting.

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07-10-2010, 12:27 PM
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Ok, your post is full of speculation, but none of what you say really disproves me. Kovy is a grey area because we don't know what he will do. Ovechkin and Semin on the other hand are perfect examples of guys who don't want to play in the KHL. Semin just signed a 1 year extension so that he can remain a member of the Caps, while Ovechkin signed a 13 year contract extension! He could have easily walked, but he has stated that he wants to play here. Also, look at Malkin. He signed 7 or so year extension to stay in Pittsburgh. Who cares if they talk to those teams? They aren't going to leave the NHL to go play there until they aren't good enough to be NHL stars.

Why are you bringing up Torino and the WC as proof that the NHL is overrated? You really believe that those nations are catching up? Or do you think they may just be improving? Either way look at the best players on each team: Belarus- Grabo, Kostitsyn bro's, Salei, Koltsov, Kalyuzhin, Denisov. The first four are in the NHL and the last three couldn't cut it (Kalyuzhin wasn't drafted). Germany has Hecht, Sturm, Ehrhoff, Seidenberg, Sulzer, Holzer, Goc, Schubert, Greiss, Endras who all have current or last season had NHL contracts. Italy has 0 players in the NHL or KHL. Latvia has Bartulis, Kulda, Skratsins, Daugavins, Karsums, Sprukts with the last two not being able to crack the NHL full time, while being given ample opportunity.

I don't see where you're going with this. The best players on all of those teams play in NHL organizations. The score in a few games at an Olympics in 2006 doesn't really have any impact on today and WC's are not really a good tournament to judge nations by because most of them are missing their best players because of the playoffs. These small nations aren't catching up, they are just improving. As long as Canada, Russia, Sweden and USA all continue to produce top end NHL talent, these nations will continue to dominate. Look at any of the rosters I just mentioned from the 2010 Olympics and show me how any of Latvia, Belarus, Germany, Switzerland or Italy are catching up. Look at the amount of players being drafted from each and that will give you a good idea on how amazing they are getting.
Finally I don't only partly agree - I do fully agree with this post. Right you are.

Thomas

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07-10-2010, 12:35 PM
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Ok, your post is full of speculation, but none of what you say really disproves me. Kovy is a grey area because we don't know what he will do. Ovechkin and Semin on the other hand are perfect examples of guys who don't want to play in the KHL. Semin just signed a 1 year extension so that he can remain a member of the Caps, while Ovechkin signed a 13 year contract extension! He could have easily walked, but he has stated that he wants to play here. Also, look at Malkin. He signed 7 or so year extension to stay in Pittsburgh. Who cares if they talk to those teams? They aren't going to leave the NHL to go play there until they aren't good enough to be NHL stars.

Why are you bringing up Torino and the WC as proof that the NHL is overrated? You really believe that those nations are catching up? Or do you think they may just be improving? Either way look at the best players on each team: Belarus- Grabo, Kostitsyn bro's, Salei, Koltsov, Kalyuzhin, Denisov. The first four are in the NHL and the last three couldn't cut it (Kalyuzhin wasn't drafted). Germany has Hecht, Sturm, Ehrhoff, Seidenberg, Sulzer, Holzer, Goc, Schubert, Greiss, Endras who all have current or last season had NHL contracts. Italy has 0 players in the NHL or KHL. Latvia has Bartulis, Kulda, Skratsins, Daugavins, Karsums, Sprukts with the last two not being able to crack the NHL full time, while being given ample opportunity.

I don't see where you're going with this. The best players on all of those teams play in NHL organizations. The score in a few games at an Olympics in 2006 doesn't really have any impact on today and WC's are not really a good tournament to judge nations by because most of them are missing their best players because of the playoffs. These small nations aren't catching up, they are just improving. As long as Canada, Russia, Sweden and USA all continue to produce top end NHL talent, these nations will continue to dominate. Look at any of the rosters I just mentioned from the 2010 Olympics and show me how any of Latvia, Belarus, Germany, Switzerland or Italy are catching up. Look at the amount of players being drafted from each and that will give you a good idea on how amazing they are getting.

I think you got it right if you tell that the small nations are improving but not catching up. They are especially improving with plain results because the easiest way to "improve" is to play very good and disciplined defense, to play clever without the puck and this e.g. exactly what Switzerland does. So the results on first sight are much better than 15-20 years ago when we did loose with double-digit numbers to the big nations. So we loose usually in pretty tight games result-wise and even win the one or the other but if you analyse the skill-difference between our players - and the same goes for the other small nation-players - and the best Canadien, Swedish. Russian, US-players - it's still pretty big - but it doesn't result anymore in huge goal-difference because the small nations did learn how to destroy a constructive game how to keep the goal-against-score low. Actually I noticed the same in the soccer-world-cup. Switzerland did beat Spain in a lucky game but if you analyse fair the game, experts will find out that the Spanish players are so much better than ours.

Thomas

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07-10-2010, 01:25 PM
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Finally I don't only partly agree - I do fully agree with this post. Right you are.

Thomas
Thank you Mr. Roost.

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I think you got it right if you tell that the small nations are improving but not catching up. They are especially improving with plain results because the easiest way to "improve" is to play very good and disciplined defense, to play clever without the puck and this e.g. exactly what Switzerland does. So the results on first sight are much better than 15-20 years ago when we did loose with double-digit numbers to the big nations. So we loose usually in pretty tight games result-wise and even win the one or the other but if you analyse the skill-difference between our players - and the same goes for the other small nation-players - and the best Canadien, Swedish. Russian, US-players - it's still pretty big - but it doesn't result anymore in huge goal-difference because the small nations did learn how to destroy a constructive game how to keep the goal-against-score low. Actually I noticed the same in the soccer-world-cup. Switzerland did beat Spain in a lucky game but if you analyse fair the game, experts will find out that the Spanish players are so much better than ours.

Thomas
This is exactly what I was thinking. They are improving, but so is the rest of the hockey world. I love that hockey is growing in these countries and hope that more players start getting drafted from them. It will be nice to see another Anze Kopitar-like player come into the NHL again.

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07-11-2010, 03:58 AM
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Ok, your post is full of speculation, but none of what you say really disproves me. Kovy is a grey area because we don't know what he will do. Ovechkin and Semin on the other hand are perfect examples of guys who don't want to play in the KHL. Semin just signed a 1 year extension so that he can remain a member of the Caps, while Ovechkin signed a 13 year contract extension! He could have easily walked, but he has stated that he wants to play here. Also, look at Malkin. He signed 7 or so year extension to stay in Pittsburgh. Who cares if they talk to those teams? They aren't going to leave the NHL to go play there until they aren't good enough to be NHL stars.

Why are you bringing up Torino and the WC as proof that the NHL is overrated? You really believe that those nations are catching up? Or do you think they may just be improving? Either way look at the best players on each team: Belarus- Grabo, Kostitsyn bro's, Salei, Koltsov, Kalyuzhin, Denisov. The first four are in the NHL and the last three couldn't cut it (Kalyuzhin wasn't drafted). Germany has Hecht, Sturm, Ehrhoff, Seidenberg, Sulzer, Holzer, Goc, Schubert, Greiss, Endras who all have current or last season had NHL contracts. Italy has 0 players in the NHL or KHL. Latvia has Bartulis, Kulda, Skratsins, Daugavins, Karsums, Sprukts with the last two not being able to crack the NHL full time, while being given ample opportunity.

I don't see where you're going with this. The best players on all of those teams play in NHL organizations. The score in a few games at an Olympics in 2006 doesn't really have any impact on today and WC's are not really a good tournament to judge nations by because most of them are missing their best players because of the playoffs. These small nations aren't catching up, they are just improving. As long as Canada, Russia, Sweden and USA all continue to produce top end NHL talent, these nations will continue to dominate. Look at any of the rosters I just mentioned from the 2010 Olympics and show me how any of Latvia, Belarus, Germany, Switzerland or Italy are catching up. Look at the amount of players being drafted from each and that will give you a good idea on how amazing they are getting.
It's bogus thinking right there. Personaly i disagree completely with both of you smitty and pokechecker on which i called him an ign*** NHL scouts, and my message got delete because some N.A. manager website "overreact" over my post by attacking an NHL scouts...No surprise why the majority of N.A. fans thinks the same ways as you two.

Those Russians have stated they can go back in KHL if they don't play in Sochi. KHL still an option for them. Once the league improve its facilities, structure and sign more big names and others things, they may even consider to come back in their homeland. Russians definitely prefer playing in their homeland than in N.A. Their "hearts" is in Russia NOT in the NHL.

The wrong thinking is to think that looking at the amount of players being drafted from each and to think this will give you a good idea on how good there countries will fare in competitions. Drafting are made by GM scouts who most of them are conservative and prefer drafting N.A. based players. N.A. based players will always have a favoritism over the European players, which of course give tremendous advantage to Canadians and US players. Many Swiss players such as Conz and Berger weren't drafted because of some "criteria" but they're is no doubt that they are better players than most N.A. based players who were drafted.

Those countries which i mention have no "superstars" in the NHL but players who play in the NHL. Despite the gap, they still can put a fight with the big nations and lose only by a few goals.

During the WHC 2010 finals, Czech republic has beaten Russia 2-1 who plays with almost all their superstars from the Olympics. Except the goalie and a defenseman, czech players plays mostly in KHL.

The ZSC-lions defeated the Stanley cup champions 2-1 at the Victoria Cup.

The NHL is certainly not an "extraterrestrial" hockey league anymore, and yes it is overrated...


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07-11-2010, 05:34 AM
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It's bogus thinking right there. Personaly i disagree completely with both of you smitty and pokechecker on which i called him an ign*** NHL scouts, and my message got delete because some N.A. manager website "overreact" over my post by attacking an NHL scouts...No surprise why the majority of N.A. fans thinks the same ways as you two.

Those Russians have stated they can go back in KHL if they don't play in Sochi. KHL still an option for them. Once the league improve its facilities, structure and sign more big names and others things, they may even consider to come back in their homeland. Russians definitely prefer playing in their homeland than in N.A. Their "hearts" is in Russia NOT in the NHL.

The wrong thinking is to think that looking at the amount of players being drafted from each and to think this will give you a good idea on how good there countries will fare in competitions. Drafting are made by GM scouts who most of them are conservative and prefer drafting N.A. based players. N.A. based players will always have a favoritism over the European players, which of course give tremendous advantage to Canadians and US players. Many Swiss players such as Conz and Berger weren't drafted because of some "criteria" but they're is no doubt that they are better players than most N.A. based players who were drafted.

Those countries which i mention have no "superstars" in the NHL but players who play in the NHL. Despite the gap, they still can put a fight with the big nations and lose only by a few goals.

During the WHC 2010 finals, Czech republic has beaten Russia 2-1 who plays with almost all their superstars from the Olympics. Except the goalie and a defenseman, czech players plays mostly in KHL.

The ZSC-lions defeated the Stanley cup champions 2-1 at the Victoria Cup.

The NHL is certainly not an "extraterrestrial" hockey league anymore, and yes it is overrated...
Nobody tells that the NHL is or was an "extraterrestrial" league. I don't know where you have such a strange idea.

Your examples for comparing the level are not really well chosen in my eyes. The WC is usually a third-priority-tournament for good NHLers and in years with the Olympics it's even just a fourth-priority-tournament. The game between the Black Hawks and the ZSC-Lions was even a sixth or seventh-priority for the Black Hawks and if you want to judge these results in games between NHL-teams and non NHL-teams and analyse them in the last 10 years...the statistic is just brutal for the non- NHL-teams, I think the other team who did beat an NHL-team was the AHL-farm-team who did beat the Flyers somehow...Actually all this reminds me of my time with the FCZ (professional soccer-team in Switzerland). We sometimes organised test games between the 1st team and the reserves and usually the reserves did win... but nobody really did think seriously that the reserve-team-players are better or even close...

To come back to your statement: I agree to a certain point that it's not fair to just count the amount of NHL-players because in my eyes the difference of quality between the best 100 players playing in European leagues and 3rd of 4th-liners in the NHL is very small but - the quality-difference between top2-unit-players in the NHL and the rest of the world - this is a pretty big gap. So in my eyes it would be a fair comparison between countries if you count their NHL-impact-players, difference-makers.

Thomas Roost
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07-11-2010, 07:19 AM
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Nobody tells that the NHL is or was an "extraterrestrial" league. I don't know where you have such a strange idea.

Your examples for comparing the level are not really well chosen in my eyes. The WC is usually a third-priority-tournament for good NHLers and in years with the Olympics it's even just a fourth-priority-tournament. The game between the Black Hawks and the ZSC-Lions was even a sixth or seventh-priority for the Black Hawks and if you want to judge these results in games between NHL-teams and non NHL-teams and analyse them in the last 10 years...the statistic is just brutal for the non- NHL-teams, I think the other team who did beat an NHL-team was the AHL-farm-team who did beat the Flyers somehow...Actually all this reminds me of my time with the FCZ (professional soccer-team in Switzerland). We sometimes organised test games between the 1st team and the reserves and usually the reserves did win... but nobody really did think seriously that the reserve-team-players are better or even close...

To come back to your statement: I agree to a certain point that it's not fair to just count the amount of NHL-players because in my eyes the difference of quality between the best 100 players playing in European leagues and 3rd of 4th-liners in the NHL is very small but - the quality-difference between top2-unit-players in the NHL and the rest of the world - this is a pretty big gap. So in my eyes it would be a fair comparison between countries if you count their NHL-impact-players, difference-makers.

Thomas Roost
Central Scouting Europe / NHL
I recall that the Blackhawks had no excuses. The Blackhawks used nearly their full roster, including all of their stars except for Hossa, and they used their starting goaltender. In that games, they were really playing at 100%. Saying that it was the sixth or seven priority for the Blackhawks is a lame excuses.

The Olympics was dubbed as the "greatest hockey tournament ever" by the media. I think every players on every teams gave its best heart-out performance during the tournaments. There is absolutely no denial on this. Saying it was a fourth priority tournaments for some players is complete bulls.

You cannot discount the Phantoms for beating the Flyers. This was an exhibitions games where nothing were at stakes.

As for the statistics for NHL teams vs non-NHL teams in the last 10 years, they're is no denying that the NHL teams have more victories than their Euro teams counterparts, but those were "exhibitions" games.
I could reply by taking the statistics during the post-Soviet era and watch most of the Russian teams destroying their NHL teams counterparts.


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07-11-2010, 08:21 AM
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I recall that the Blackhawks had no excuses. The Blackhawks used nearly their full roster, including all of their stars except for Hossa, and they used their starting goaltender. In that games, they were really playing at 100%. Saying that it was the sixth or seven priority for the Blackhawks is a lame excuses.

The Olympics was dubbed as the "greatest hockey tournament ever" by the media. I think every players on every teams gave its best heart-out performance during the tournaments. There is absolutely no denial on this. Saying it was a fourth priority tournaments for some players is complete bulls.

You cannot discount the Phantoms for beating the Flyers. This was an exhibitions games where nothing were at stakes.

As for the statistics for NHL teams vs non-NHL teams in the last 10 years, they're is no denying that the NHL teams have more victories than their Euro teams counterparts, but those were "exhibitions" games.
I could reply by taking the statistics during the post-Soviet era and watch most of the Russian teams destroying their NHL teams counterparts.
I politely ask you for more precise criticism. I didn't tell that the Olympics is a fourth-priority-tournament. I did tell that the WC in years when there are also Olympics is a fourth-priority-tournament. In deed I guess the Olympics have a high priority in the eyes of hockey-players. For North Americans it's the Stanley-Cup as 1st priority and the Olympics already 2nd and for European players I even guess that they give the Olympics at least the priority what they give to the Stanley Cup.

Of course the Black Hawks are polite and classy in not telling cheap excuses after the surprising loss to the ZSC Lions but everybody still knows what priority this game had for the Black Hawks, and yes - they played with their best players, no question about that... but still, I guess we are watching different movies if you really believe that this game was more than an exhibition game for the Black Hawks and I guess we don't want to start to spread the facts that the Black Hawks were before the season, did make the trip just 48 hours ago and I don't know how many practices they had on the big sheet and if I remember right there was also a game the night before vs an even better Swiss team. What was the result there, I can't remember? And yes still.... the Lions played very, very well in this game and proof exactly what I did present in an earlier post...in today's hockey and soccer, even much worse teams can hold onto a tight result even if they have the much worse players. This is a tendency of modern sports. Playing defense to close perfection is the first step not so good teams can do and in todays world a lot of not so good teams play defense close to perfect. Switzerland did beat Spain in soccer...but still not just one Spanish team is thinking one split-second of hiring a Swiss player from this team...and the polite Blackhawks? Did they hire a Lions-player, did they draft a Swiss player? No they didn't and I guarantee you that the reason is definitely not that they are stupid... Yes, they did give an invitation to Patrick Geering for some summer-camp in Chicago, fair enough and congratulations to Patrick, he deserves this great experience, this made even some headline-letters in the Swiss hockey-media. Do you know how many try-out-invitations the Black Hawks did give to players who never were drafted and who are not under an NHL-contract? I guess it's more than 30...


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07-11-2010, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Pokechecker View Post
I politely ask you for more precise criticism. I didn't tell that the Olympics is a fourth-priority-tournament. I did tell that the WC in years when there are also Olympics is a fourth-priority-tournament. In deed I guess the Olympics have a high priority in the eyes of hockey-players. For North Americans it's the Stanley-Cup as 1st priority and the Olympics already 2nd and for European players I even guess that they give the Olympics at least the priority what they give to the Stanley Cup.

Of course the Black Hawks are polite and classy in not telling cheap excuses after the surprising loss to the ZSC Lions but everybody still knows what priority this game had for the Black Hawks, and yes -they played with their best players, no question about that... but still, I guess we are watching different movies if you really believe that this game was more than an exhibition game for the Black Hawks and I guess we don't want to start to spread the facts that the Black Hawks were before the season, did make the trip just 48 hours ago and I don't know how many practices they had on the big sheet and if I remember right there was also a game the night before vs an even better Swiss team. What was the result there, I can't remember? And yes still.... the Lions played very, very well in this game and proof exactly what I did present in an earlier post...in today's hockey and soccer, even much worse teams can hold onto a tight result even if they have the much worse players. This is a tendency of modern sports. Playing defense to close perfection is the first step not so good teams can do and in todays world a lot of not so good teams play defense close to perfect. Switzerland did beat Spain in soccer...but still not just one Spanish team is thinking one split-second of hiring a Swiss player from this team...and the polite Blackhawks? Did they hire a Lions-player, did they draft a Swiss player? No they didn't and I guarantee you that the reason is definitely not that they are stupid... Yes, they did give an invitation to Patrick Geering for some summer-camp in Chicago, fair enough and congratulations to Patrick, he deserves this great experience, this made even some headline-letters in the Swiss hockey-media. Do you know how many try-out-invitations the Black Hawks did give to players who never were drafted and who are not under an NHL-contract? I guess it's more than 30...


Thomas Roost
Central Scouting Europe / NHL
Should i reminds you that they don't do this exhibition for the fans, but for the NHL team. Watching HC Davos playing an overspeed system against arguably one the fastest NHL teams was suicidal of course. The score was 9-2 but this one was meaningless.

Because the ones coming over to Europe for a Cup or NHL season start game have a right to get a decent warm up to fight the jet lag and to build some confidence on the big ice. And all of this of course without any players injured.

That's what SC Bern and HC Davos had to do and perfectly did. Davos was a bit better than Bern, because Davos made them not only confident, but slightly overconfident.

Why saying that the Blackhawks did not draft any Swiss players because of the result of this Victoria cup? is that has anything to do with what we were saying?!?

Well the Blackhawks has more than 72 kids coming to their prospect camps. They do have an incredible depths indeed...so what?!?....

I also recalled that El Nino wanted to play for the Blackhawks and those "Hawks agents" really wanted to add "El Nino" on their rosters but the price for the Hawks to trade down was simply too much to get him.

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07-12-2010, 01:07 AM
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Uncle Rotter
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Originally Posted by torero View Post
Soccer
Our juniors became Junior world Champions
When was this?

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