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The Official 2010 Offseason Thread Part II

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Old
07-12-2010, 02:43 PM
  #51
Scorvo
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Harrison is a #6 defensemen making the minimum, I think some people are over-reacting a bit. Is he ideal? No, but he isn't going to be playing big minutes. I'll be shocked if he gets any special teams time at all. Plus if someone goes down in the top four he doesn't step into that role, McBain easily does.

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07-12-2010, 02:48 PM
  #52
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around 9PM +/- 30 minutes. Driving on 64 from Knightdale towards Raleigh, just a mile or two from the i440 belt line.
I was working but can't recall... I'll check wednesday night, i like to satisfy curiosities LOL

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07-12-2010, 03:26 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorvo View Post
Harrison is a #6 defensemen making the minimum, I think some people are over-reacting a bit. Is he ideal? No, but he isn't going to be playing big minutes. I'll be shocked if he gets any special teams time at all. Plus if someone goes down in the top four he doesn't step into that role, McBain easily does.
I just really don't get all the Harrison hate. He's pretty mobile for his size even if his feet are a little heavy on startup, he handles the puck pretty confidently, and he has a toughness element to his game.

First impressions can be a female dog, obviously, but I think he really got it together once sent down and turned his year around. I think we'll see some decent things for him this year. I think the organization is seeing a bit of Commodore in his game. I see it too.

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07-12-2010, 03:38 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
I just really don't get all the Harrison hate. He's pretty mobile for his size even if his feet are a little heavy on startup, he handles the puck pretty confidently, and he has a toughness element to his game.

First impressions can be a female dog, obviously, but I think he really got it together once sent down and turned his year around. I think we'll see some decent things for him this year. I think the organization is seeing a bit of Commodore in his game. I see it too.
I honestly think the hate for Harrison has been a bit of a snowball effect. One that even I have found myself getting caught up in, however more so for the reason that he got a 1-way over Carson. With that said, it may prove to be the right move (Short-term). We lack toughness and grit on the back end any way you slice it with Pitkanen, Corvo, Babchuk & McBain. Aside from Gleason, Harrison is our only other option of a toughness/physical element, one that even Carson for a big man doesnt bring. So in reality if Harrison does indeed keep things simple and play to his game in the bottom pairing, he could very well be more of an asset then Carson and the game he brings.

One thing I can't forget and mention quite often when speaking of Harrison is how impressed John Forslund was with him when we sent him down. Basically went on with how impressed he was with Harrison and how the organization was impressed with him and how he did everything asked of him. He said himself Harrison would be back with the Hurricanes at some point. Forslund is well known for calling a spade a spade and voicing his opinion, and he did with Harrison. Because I like Forslund and as a fan, trust his opinions, that always has given me hope Harrison can one day be a factor for us, even if it is just in a bottom pairing role.


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07-12-2010, 03:40 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
I just really don't get all the Harrison hate. He's pretty mobile for his size even if his feet are a little heavy on startup, he handles the puck pretty confidently, and he has a toughness element to his game.

First impressions can be a female dog, obviously, but I think he really got it together once sent down and turned his year around. I think we'll see some decent things for him this year. I think the organization is seeing a bit of Commodore in his game. I see it too.
Totally agree. I rather have him plugged into the #6 spot than Sangs. That way we can let Sangs work on his defensive game in the A, as well as get premium special team minutes that he would never get with McBain, Babchuk, Corvo and Pitkanen ahead of him (Let alone PK time). Harrison playing bottom pairing minutes isn't a bad thing. As long as we don't rely on him to fill the defensive void during injuries, I have no problem with him.

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07-12-2010, 07:22 PM
  #56
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I want the best 6 d-men we have in our organization out there. Even without Carson, I just have a really hard time believing Harrison is our 6th best defenseman. Sure, we need another physical presence and a stay at home type d-man but Harrison is only playing that role out of necessity since we have no one else in the system to play it. I wouldn't mind him as the #7th d-man to fill in when there are injuries but I just don't think he's good or consistent enough to handle NHL forwards night in and night out, not on any good team anyway..

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07-13-2010, 08:54 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Erik Stall View Post
I want the best 6 d-men we have in our organization out there. Even without Carson, I just have a really hard time believing Harrison is our 6th best defenseman. Sure, we need another physical presence and a stay at home type d-man but Harrison is only playing that role out of necessity since we have no one else in the system to play it. I wouldn't mind him as the #7th d-man to fill in when there are injuries but I just don't think he's good or consistent enough to handle NHL forwards night in and night out, not on any good team anyway..
I think you answered your own concern. It comes down to roles and balance and like it or not, Harrison is the best physical D at this point in time in the organization. Dwyer is not one of the most talented 12 forwards but he is there to play a role and so is Harrison on D.

I also agree with some of the earlier comments about him getting more criticism than is warranted. It's interesting how a persistent bashing from a few can sway some people. When you actually take a hard look at performance (and not just the +/- cursory review) he was pretty close to what Alberts did but there are two very different fan perspectives. Harrison can be serviceable at home but usually becomes a risk factor on the road but that's the reality of most 3rd pair guys who are borderline 6/7's on a small market team.

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07-13-2010, 09:16 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
I just really don't get all the Harrison hate. He's pretty mobile for his size even if his feet are a little heavy on startup, he handles the puck pretty confidently, and he has a toughness element to his game.

First impressions can be a female dog, obviously, but I think he really got it together once sent down and turned his year around. I think we'll see some decent things for him this year. I think the organization is seeing a bit of Commodore in his game. I see it too.
The biggest problem that Harrison had in his first season here wasn't so much one of perceived inability (at least IMO) as it was a perception of "why did we pick this guy up when he's just like Ward, Wallin and Alberts?". He was just so similar to the others and being the most inexperienced of the 4 he was making mistakes that would indicate his inexperience in his first stint with the team last season. It was just flat out redundant to have him on the roster when what the team needed was another puck mover or two. Now the defense is on the other end of the spectrum and we need someone like him. That's not to say peoples opinions on the guy will change, it's always one hell of a fight to get that to happen. But there may be a bit more appreciation for what he brings to the table when he's not the 5th of a 7 man defense that's simply a stay-at-home guy. Or the 6th of an 8 man group if you include Carson. Right now, he's the 2nd of a 6 man group that's under contract that plays that relative style, HUGE contrast compared to where he was last year and I think that's going to show. I'm not on the Jay Harrison bandwagon but I was also one of the few that last year was saying "this guy isn't as bad as we make him out to be, he's just unnecessary with what we have under contract right now".

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07-13-2010, 09:47 AM
  #59
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Context aside, Harrison is a bad NHL defenseman. It's as simple as that. I mean for crissake, we're talking about an Alberts-like career as an "upside".

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07-13-2010, 10:08 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Context aside, Harrison is a bad NHL defenseman. It's as simple as that. I mean for crissake, we're talking about an Alberts-like career as an "upside".
Don't get me wrong, I'd MUCH rather have Carson back under contract to be our #6, a guy that I (and many) think has a much better shot at rounding into a top 4 defenseman then Jay Harrison.

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07-13-2010, 10:38 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Context aside, Harrison is a bad NHL defenseman. It's as simple as that. I mean for crissake, we're talking about an Alberts-like career as an "upside".
I don't think anyone thinks he is a great or even very good NHL player, but I don't see how you can remove context. A guy who is your 6th D-man is there for a reason and by definition, unless it's a young guy, is going to have deficiencies and limited upside. Only on stacked teams will your #6 be a vet and also good.

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07-13-2010, 11:02 AM
  #62
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A number 6 guy who can skate, hit, play solid defense, and move the puck decently isn't a number 6 defensemen. A number six guy has flaws, that's why they are a number 6 defensemen.

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07-13-2010, 12:00 PM
  #63
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Umm, i think the point is, guys, that for his price, and on a 1-way contract, there was at least 1 other option in Carson that may have been better. The argument was not that Harrison doesn't fill the #6 role. Should have had Carson there instead. Harrison is definitely better than Picard

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07-13-2010, 12:10 PM
  #64
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We offered Carson a one-way at that price, he didn't take it. We probably should have given Carson a two-way qualifier as well but we're still in the mix solidly with Carson. From what I've been hearing we're the only team that offered him a one-way deal so far.

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07-13-2010, 12:25 PM
  #65
tarheelhockey
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
I don't think anyone thinks he is a great or even very good NHL player, but I don't see how you can remove context. A guy who is your 6th D-man is there for a reason and by definition, unless it's a young guy, is going to have deficiencies and limited upside. Only on stacked teams will your #6 be a vet and also good.
Sure, the #6 will always be below-average by definition. But Harrison is a below-average #6, which is why he gets dumped on by a lot of fans. Nobody is that worried about his salary level if he simply sucks.

Here are some other #6 defensemen (by TOI) around the league:
Nick Boynton
Matt Hunwick
Andrej Sekera
Ruslan Salei
Mike Commodore
Mark Fistric
Brett Lebda
Dmitry Kulikov
Matt Greene
Shane Hnidy
Hal Gill
Cody Franson
Bryce Salvador
Freddy Meyer
Matt Gilroy
Chris Campoli
Mark Eaton
Mike Weaver
Luke Schenn
Shane O'Brien

I can't see a single guy on that list that I would trade for Harrison and feel like I was getting anything but cap relief. The few teams not represented there either have desperate problems on the back end (Edmonton) or simply don't use their 3rd pairing very much (Philly).

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07-13-2010, 12:38 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Sure, the #6 will always be below-average by definition. But Harrison is a below-average #6, which is why he gets dumped on by a lot of fans. Nobody is that worried about his salary level if he simply sucks.

Here are some other #6 defensemen (by TOI) around the league:
Nick Boynton
Matt Hunwick
Andrej Sekera
Ruslan Salei
Mike Commodore
Mark Fistric
Brett Lebda
Dmitry Kulikov
Matt Greene
Shane Hnidy
Hal Gill
Cody Franson
Bryce Salvador
Freddy Meyer
Matt Gilroy
Chris Campoli
Mark Eaton
Mike Weaver
Luke Schenn
Shane O'Brien

I can't see a single guy on that list that I would trade for Harrison and feel like I was getting anything but cap relief. The few teams not represented there either have desperate problems on the back end (Edmonton) or simply don't use their 3rd pairing very much (Philly).
I'm not sure of your point. Most of those guys are either young guys as Storm Cast said, or drastically overpaid like Commodore. I don't like Harrison either, but you aren't getting a d-man at the league minimum better than him, unless Borer or Rodney is ready to go. The only guy on your list that screams #6 dman veteran is Hnidy. That is who Harrison should aspire to be like, though he'll have to win more fights.

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07-13-2010, 12:43 PM
  #67
Jerry Lundegaard
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guys, don't worry too much about who our #6 guy is...he won't be playing many minutes.

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07-13-2010, 01:16 PM
  #68
tarheelhockey
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Originally Posted by Joe McGrath View Post
I'm not sure of your point. Most of those guys are either young guys as Storm Cast said, or drastically overpaid like Commodore. I don't like Harrison either, but you aren't getting a d-man at the league minimum better than him, unless Borer or Rodney is ready to go. The only guy on your list that screams #6 dman veteran is Hnidy. That is who Harrison should aspire to be like, though he'll have to win more fights.
The point being, among #6 dmen in the league Harrison is well below average.

Since we started with "I just don't get the Harrison hate", I'm attempting to explain it. The player sucks. Fans don't like sucky players.

And outside junkies like ourselves, very few of the people at RBC are thinking "Well, Harrison really blew that play but at least we're getting him at the league minimum!"

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07-13-2010, 01:23 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Sure, the #6 will always be below-average by definition. But Harrison is a below-average #6, which is why he gets dumped on by a lot of fans. Nobody is that worried about his salary level if he simply sucks.

Here are some other #6 defensemen (by TOI) around the league:
Nick Boynton
Matt Hunwick
Andrej Sekera
Ruslan Salei
Mike Commodore
Mark Fistric
Brett Lebda
Dmitry Kulikov
Matt Greene
Shane Hnidy
Hal Gill
Cody Franson
Bryce Salvador
Freddy Meyer
Matt Gilroy
Chris Campoli
Mark Eaton
Mike Weaver
Luke Schenn
Shane O'Brien

I can't see a single guy on that list that I would trade for Harrison and feel like I was getting anything but cap relief. The few teams not represented there either have desperate problems on the back end (Edmonton) or simply don't use their 3rd pairing very much (Philly).
Now, as I noted before, apply some context.

You have young guys in there like Luke Schenn and Sekera and others who are not #6 Dmen such as Commodore and Gill (you simply can't use TOI without context). Then when you add salary into the mix, such as Salvador's nearly $3M, and you see that performance-to-contract value can't be ignored either. The guys on that list who are actually #6's are either developing or have some prominent flaws to their game.

I disagree somewhat with you about why he gets dumped on. As someone posted earlier, it's a snowball effect that happens on message boards. We saw it with Wallin too. A lot of negative hyperbole gets thrown around about Harrison and he isn't nearly as bad as some would have you believe. If you think he's really that bad, then I'd be interested to hear your specific analysis of his play vs. the general line of he is brutal, etc.

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07-13-2010, 01:46 PM
  #70
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i think he is fine for his role and price. he took the offer early, when we didnt have any d men signed. of course id rather have carson, but harrison out of place on our team. cheap role players are required with the cap, and he is as cheap as they come. we arent getting anyone off that list for league minimum.

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07-13-2010, 01:57 PM
  #71
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I disagree somewhat with you about why he gets dumped on. As someone posted earlier, it's a snowball effect that happens on message boards. We saw it with Wallin too. A lot of negative hyperbole gets thrown around about Harrison and he isn't nearly as bad as some would have you believe. If you think he's really that bad, then I'd be interested to hear your specific analysis of his play vs. the general line of he is brutal, etc.
I put him in the same category as guys like Hnidy and Alberts -- just a young version of them. Slow, unskilled blueliners whose main contribution is "grit". He makes league minimum for good reason.

Look, I'm not saying the guy should be waived or anything. Someone simply asked why Harrison gets hated on and I responded. The guy is the worst player on the ice probably 95% of the time... of course he's going to get hated on. What are we supposed to do, cheer for his contract?

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07-13-2010, 02:00 PM
  #72
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our 6th defensman will never be good. at best, he could functional like wallin.

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07-13-2010, 02:10 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I put him in the same category as guys like Hnidy and Alberts -- just a young version of them. Slow, unskilled blueliners whose main contribution is "grit". He makes league minimum for good reason.

Look, I'm not saying the guy should be waived or anything. Someone simply asked why Harrison gets hated on and I responded. The guy is the worst player on the ice probably 95% of the time... of course he's going to get hated on. What are we supposed to do, cheer for his contract?
But that's what you invariably have for your 6th D and very few make the league minimum. Many guys on your list meet the criteria but make much more. So you would be ok with having Alberts back at nearly triple the salary of Harrison this year?

That second bolded comment is more hyperbole and isn't accurate. He's out there against 4th lines whenever possible and typically becomes more of a risk on the road. He was fairly steady at home last season despite the incessant and parroted bashing he gets here.

In the big picture, it's really not going to matter whether he or Carson play in that spot. I'd prefer Carson, as most would, but I think he's being overrated. He is so passive at times he is a total non-factor. Besides with the coaching staff's preference to give the top 4 D so many (too many IMO) minutes/game, it isn't a great worry especially since Harrison is only signed for one year.

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our 6th defensman will never be good. at best, he could functional like wallin.
Agreed and as I posted previously, I see some very stark parallels between Harrison and Wallin at the same stages in their careers. Wallin come over from Sweden late and worked his way from a 6/7 into a serviceable bottom pair guy with a game that is almost a carbon copy of Harrison's.

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07-13-2010, 02:13 PM
  #74
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But that's what you invariably have for your 6th D and very few make the league minimum. Many guys on your list meet the criteria but make much more. So you would be ok with having Alberts back at nearly triple the salary of Harrison this year?
If we had Alberts back, I'd rip on him too. I don't understand the crime in pointing out that a bad player is bad.

"Harrison is so underrated, he made a major contribution to the success of our team."
^ Doesn't that look a little silly to you?

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07-13-2010, 02:15 PM
  #75
Mossy Oak
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our 6th defensman will never be good. at best, he could functional like wallin.
Agree. He'll likely be more regularly physical and can/will drop the gloves, unlike Wallin. Which should be a good asset for this team. Wallin could be physical, just not consistently for my liking even though there were times when he could be a beast along the wall by either pinning or plastering a guy pretty good. Harrison isn't too tough, but the guy can hold his own against many in the league. Heck, even though he was the one who walked away the bloody mess vs. Lucic, he still held his own pretty good in that tilt. It wasn't a smokeshow or thumping by Lucic in my opinion and that says a lot. Pretty well one good shot that got Harrison good, the rest of the fight was fairly close. Harrison is no heavyweight, and Lucic is near tops in the league for his toughness. I think for league minimum and a 6/7 defenceman, Harrison will be fine for what we should use him for and what he can bring to the table.


Last edited by Mossy Oak: 07-13-2010 at 02:24 PM.
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