Price played 52 games that year. Started in 49 of them. He played great for 26 of those games before the all star game. That is half of all the games of the entire year. How is that a short period of time.
Since when has "half" = "majority"?
The original quote was that if Price plays great the majority of the games this season then the Habs will be fine. Ever since his 1st season, he's never played "great" in the majority of his games. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
That's the part that goalies improve while maturing...consistency. Halak is 2 years older. Look at Fleury's struggles at 20-21-22 and then his cup run.
And he's still wildly inconsistent. If Fleury is what Price will be in the next few years....
Even Price would at the amount of excuses you make for him.
Yes but the argument is valid: a person of 22 is not as accomplished and experienced as a person of 25 yrs old. The 3 yrs difference can be like a lifetime for a person, in 3 yrs Price will have lived one eight of his lifespan (3 on 25), can you be absolutely SURE that he will not be a more complete goalie and person in 3 yrs??
He will be much more mature and solid "between the ears", just like Halak is, this year, his 25th year. He can only get better.
Halak 2007 - 2010 Career save % .919
Price 2008 - 2010 Career save % .912
The difference is negligible at best, so really they are equally good at the most important part of goaltending.
That's hardly negligible. Also, Halak seems to be improving every year. Can't say that about Price. I just wonder how long will he be able to live off of his good first year and all this "potential" I keep hearing about. It's ridiculous how many excuses some of you guys will make up for him and how you will not admit that Halak is a better goaltender.
Yes but the argument is valid: a person of 22 is not as accomplished and experienced as a person of 25 yrs old. The 3 yrs difference can be like a lifetime for a person, in 3 yrs Price will have lived one eight of his lifespan (3 on 25), can you be absolutely SURE that he will not be a more complete goalie and person in 3 yrs??
He will be much more mature and solid "between the ears", just like Halak is, this year, his 25th year. He can only get better.
That's true...but why don't people say the same thing about Guillaume or other young Hab players that get ragged on? Seems like Price is the only guy who gets a pass.
Wow it looks like this thread is not about to cool off :-))
People are so pumped up they still feel like they have to take a side even though Halak is not here anymore.
My 2-cent if you'll allow me...
- Halak gets a lot of support (and justly so) because he was a late round draft pick who beat the odds and became a solid NHL goalie through hard work. He had to jump a few hurdles along the way, overcoming the fact that he was pushed aside after a fine season in Hamilton because the organization wanted to bring in Price for a playoff run. He kept his poise all along, kept working his way up and gave us solid goaltending most of the time when called upon, all the way to the last playoffs when he was flat out spectacular in many games.
- Price on the other hand was a very high draft pick who was hyped from the very start by the organization, the press and the fans.
In hindsight we can say that he was brought up to fast. The NHL is not the place where you should be when you have yet to learn to become a pro athlete: being a pro athlete is a life style (e.g. training, nutrition, life habits, etc.), it's a 24/7 job, you have to learn that Tuesday morning's practice is every bit as important as Saturday night's game, you have to be ready to put in the work in, day in and day out.
I know it's easy to say after the fact, but it looks like he wasn't fully ready to handle the situation: people in the press started hinting that it all went to his head and that he couldn't deal with adversity, that he seemed with his body language to show off team mates after a goal, etc. That and all the stories about how hard he was partying, and the initial hype turned against him and people started comparing the two individuals: the low key pro’s pro who beat the odds and the high profile hotshot whose growing pains were under the microscope at all times. Hence the passionate debate we're witnessing now.
And people in the media (at least the French media) keep stoking the fire (e.g. Richard Labbé can't stop calling him Jesus Price, the cheap ****** with their stupid grins on RDS sports bulletin wouldn't have enough of calling Halak's play "priceless" during the playoffs, and so on...).
The bottom line is that the management still feels that Price is their guy. I'm sure they liked the fact that he never said a word out of turn and behaved like the perfect team player for 3months while being a healthy scratch for the last three months of the season
And hopefully, they scouted Eller thoroughly and they really like him.
And I'd like to remind everyone that Price was never responsible for the hype, he just had to put up with it whether he liked it or not; whether he was ready for it or not.
The bottom line is that Halak is gone, there's no going back on this, and the Habs' brass decided to go with Price.
Still a month from turning 23, already has a 134 regular season games under his belt, 60 wins, 48 losses, with a 2.73 GAA and a .912 SV%.
And I'll reiterate that he was graceful enough to shut up and support Halak all the way when Jaro was doing his thing in the playoffs.
Can we just let him play now?
And he's still wildly inconsistent. If Fleury is what Price will be in the next few years....
Nevermind that Fluery kid, if Price just plays to his career stats so far and never progresses past his .912 save % and his 2.74 GAA, we are good to go. His team just needs to score at a 2.75 GPG clip.
In my point of view, I think it's obvious the St-Louis blues made the offer to the Montreal Canadiens. Pierre Gauthier told RDS media that they gave a lot just for unrestricted free agent Halak. Why would he hesitate to accept a futur 1st/2nd line forward and a futur 3rd liner? If Halak had a good contract, he'll worth nothing more than 2 1st round pick by considerating Eller is almost ready for the big league (1st rounder) and Schultz a 3rd rounder. Since he had no contract and for salary cap reasons any general managers are going to accept for less.
And he's still wildly inconsistent. If Fleury is what Price will be in the next few years....
Just pointing out that Fleury made huge strides from his first few years to his cip year 08-09, where he was one of their best players in the playoffs. Not sure how you read that to say Price will be what Fleury is.
Even Price would at the amount of excuses you make for him.
I don't post excuses, just facts and stat break downs and at least I stick to my guns and don't change my opinions hourly eh bud
I accept that FACT that Halak is gone and isn't coming back.
Also, that continuing to bash or blame Price is not only counter productive for next season, it's quite frankly just retarded.
UMM what? You really think that is true? Rebound control is a part of the foundation of good goal tending. This is not debatable, the size thing I'll give you but not the rebound control. It is a very important part of a goalies' skill set.
Another proof that people overrate rebound control !
The foundation of goal tending is stopping the puck, it's not controlling the rebounds.
I'll ask you a few questions..
If you compare the worst goalie in the entire league at rebound control versus the best goalie at rebound control, how many more shots does the goalie that's bad at it faces in a game ? How many of those shots resulting from rebounds are prime scoring chances ? How of those scoring chances end up in the net ?
I'll direct you to this blog and I'll suggest you read that article and come back to me.
EDIT: In case you're too lazy, there isn't a noticeable difference in terms of shots allowed per games between a goalie considered to be bad at rebound control and one that is good. And then, if you consider how many actual goals results from rebounds that should not have been rebounds, you'll notice it's an extremely small number. Thus, rebound control is an overrated goalie skill considering every goaltenders have a certain base ability to control their rebounds.
That part is interesting :
Quote:
Despite the focus on rebounds, there really aren't that many rebound shots per game. This season there have been just 1.43 rebound shots against per team per game. Not only are the totals low, but there is not a whole lot of difference between teams in rebounds allowed. Over the last 4 seasons from The Forechecker's numbers, Detroit allowed the fewest rebound shots (1.25 per game) while Florida allowed the most (2.00 per game). That is not particularly surprising, since Detroit allowed the fewest total shots (25.6) while Florida allowed the most (33.1). Note that the difference in overall shots (7.5) is 10 times as high as the difference in rebound shots (0.75). Clearly it would be a big mistake to attribute a difference in shots against between teams primarily to rebounds.
A better measure of rebound prevention is the percentage of shots against that are rebound shots. The best team in the league this year, Buffalo, has faced a rebound shot on just 3.6% of their shots against. The worst team in the league, Carolina, has seen a second chance opportunity on 6.1% of their shots. That is a gap of 2.5%, which is a typical gap between the best and the worst in any given season. Even if we assume that the entire difference is a result of goalie skill, for a team with 30 shots against that accounts for a difference of about 0.75 rebounds per game, which at a typical rebound scoring rate is somewhere around 0.18 goals per game. A difference of 0.18 goals per game is equivalent to a save percentage difference of .006. That is just for this season, where we would expect some more randomness in the results. Over the 4 year sample, the difference between the best and worst is just 1.7%.
Another proof that people overrate rebound control !
The foundation of goal tending is stopping the puck, it's not controlling the rebounds.
I'll ask you a few questions..
If you compare the worst goalie in the entire league at rebound control versus the best goalie at rebound control, how many more shots does the goalie that's bad at it faces in a game ? How many of those shots resulting from rebounds are prime scoring chances ? How of those scoring chances end up in the net ?
I'll direct you to this blog and I'll suggest you read that article and come back to me.
EDIT: In case you're too lazy, there isn't a noticeable difference in terms of shots allowed per games between a goalie considered to be bad at rebound control and one that is good. And then, if you consider how many actual goals results from rebounds that should not have been rebounds, you'll notice it's an extremely small number. Thus, rebound control is an overrated goalie skill considering every goaltenders have a certain base ability to control their rebounds.
That part is interesting :
By the way, I think those stats are for 08-09
That blog starts with the premise of a goalie who had seen limited action being poor at controlling rebounds and used it as fact. There was pretty much 0 in the way of scientific data. The only thing that the blog proved was that Brodeur and any goaltender who plays for New Jersey benefits from a a strong team defence.
That blog starts with the premise of a goalie who had seen limited action being poor at controlling rebounds and used it as fact. There was pretty much 0 in the way of scientific data. The only thing that the blog proved was that Brodeur and any goaltender who plays for New Jersey benefits from a a strong team defence.
You suffer from the too long didn't read syndrome.
The entire article is not based on that little comparison. After that he compared total rebound shots / per game in the entire league. Compared the worst team at it with the best team at it.
Fact is that there's about 2 rebound shots per game on average at most for the worst team at rebound control (worst goalie at rebound control, worst D, most shots, give up the most chances, etc).
Out of those 2 rebounds, how many of those could have been prevented by a goalie that was actually good at rebound control ? Assuming that those 2 extra rebounds are 100% the fault of the goaltender (which they most likely aren't), how many would have been prevented if you went from the worst goalie in the league at rebound control to the best ? Then consider the amount of actual goals that resulted from the goalie being bad at rebound control.
The number is small. As expected.
Is it a nice skill to have to be able to control rebounds well ? Sure. But it's VASTLY overrated. Actually stopping the puck in the first place is infinitely more important. And being a good puck stopper also allows you to make the save on most rebounds making the fact you allow rebounds even less important.
I stand by my original point that rebound control is overrated.
And he's still wildly inconsistent. If Fleury is what Price will be in the next few years....
Carey Price is WAY more talented than MA-Fleury. Price has the talent to play at a Vezina-level. The biggest problem with Price is his attitude/work ethic, which has since improved after being confronted by all his teammates. He basically coasted all the way to the NHL by his raw talent alone. It's only this year that Carey finally started to realize he has to work at it if he wants a long NHL career and to be respected by his peers.
Why? because he was hot for 6 weeks or so?....are you kidding me?
He was 4 years in Montreal, 4 unspectacular years and because of a brief moment, he is now better than most?
He is far closer to Steve Penney (look him up) than Patrick Roy.....
What the hell are you going on about? I said and I stand by it, that Halak is a better goalie than Price. Where did you get better than most or Patrick Roy from that?
Also, it's funny how Halak is always just lucky or he got "hot". And accoring to some posters, whole last season was just Halak getting all the luck while Price was super unlucky... (not you now)
Read up a bit on Halak before you go on to say that he just got hot. He excelled at all levels he has played at. Slovak leagues, juniors, AHL, Olympics, NHL, you name it. And he is getting better. Price, not so much.
If you say that all Halak did is that he got hot for 6 weeks, can the same be said for Price, as in he got hot for a few weeks in his first year? I am really wondering.
One final time, Halak is a better goaltender than Price. He is better at stopping the puck. Rebound control, luck, whatever, all rather silly arguments, just face it, he is superior to Price.
The only question, is if Saint Louis wanted Price, who since they wanted Price more, it means he was worth more to them, and they gave Eller, a very good prospect for Halak, what could Price have gotten? Could Pietrangelo have been involved? I'm curious. Not saying that would affect anything in my mind, but AP would have been a sick addition.
Carey Price is WAY more talented than MA-Fleury. Price has the talent to play at a Vezina-level. The biggest problem with Price is his attitude/work ethic, which has since improved after being confronted by all his teammates. He basically coasted all the way to the NHL by his raw talent alone. It's only this year that Carey finally started to realize he has to work at it if he wants a long NHL career and to be respected by his peers.
That's hardly negligible. Also, Halak seems to be improving every year. Can't say that about Price. I just wonder how long will he be able to live off of his good first year and all this "potential" I keep hearing about. It's ridiculous how many excuses some of you guys will make up for him and how you will not admit that Halak is a better goaltender.
So you are insinuating that progression is linear in Halak's case? That he will just keep improving?
There's no way to predict the success of a human being from year to year. Management made a decision to trade the goaltender with the best value, Halak, because the difference between the quality of the two young netminders is so small. So we kept a goaltender who management thinks will be at the WORST slightly weaker than Halak, and maximized the other asset by getting a top level prospect for him that fits an organizational need.
This thread is hopeless...
All the hot headed dudes out there should send their resume and hope they're selected as the next goaltending experts on the payroll.
This thread is hopeless...
All the hot headed dudes out there should send their resume and hope they're selected as the next goaltending experts on the payroll.
I really don't see how it's so complicated.
Price has a higher upside than Halak. I'm sorry, it's true, whether or not he'll reach it is another question. Despite not reaching his ceiling yet, he's still on par with Halak, beneath only Halak's play-off performances in the first two rounds (though the San Jose and Nashville games come into mind where Price demonstrated similar abilities.. and also Game 7 against Boston where he got a shutout as a man younger than myself.)
So management decided this..
We will take the goaltender who will cost us less.
Who is on par with the other goaltender with the potential to be better long term.
We will then trade the other goaltender for a top level prospect.
That will allow us to save money on our cap.
This saved money on the cap allows us to keep Tomas Plekanec our 1st line center.
Price
Eller
Shultz
Plekanec
vs.
Halak
minimal return for Price
tier two center like Belanger.
So you are insinuating that progression is linear in Halak's case? That he will just keep improving?
There's no way to predict the success of a human being from year to year. Management made a decision to trade the goaltender with the best value, Halak, because the difference between the quality of the two young netminders is so small. So we kept a goaltender who management thinks will be at the WORST slightly weaker than Halak, and maximized the other asset by getting a top level prospect for him that fits an organizational need.
Sure. The only thing that I have a problem with is people who argue that Price is somehow a better goaltender than Halak. Not to mention they use hard to measure "stats" such as rebound control, luck and talent. I remember when it at least used to be somewhat reasonable arguments, like Price plays the better teams, that's why Halak does better. To be fair, Halak destroyed that myth.
