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Old
07-14-2010, 07:30 PM
  #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcbio11 View Post
Sure. The only thing that I have a problem with is people who argue that Price is somehow a better goaltender than Halak. Not to mention they use hard to measure "stats" such as rebound control, luck and talent. I remember when it at least used to be somewhat reasonable arguments, like Price plays the better teams, that's why Halak does better. To be fair, Halak destroyed that myth.
It's hard to use goaltending stats though. I'm a goaltender myself and I know some nights I'll let in a lot of goals but I've felt I've played better than when I get a shutout.

If I face a team who has weak shooters but throw a lot on the net, I'm going to likely have a low GAA and high save percentage for that game. The next game I'm going to go out and stop high quality shots, but only face about 25 of them, and get scored on on cross-crease plays that I have very little chance of saving.. and my stats are poor even if I stopped a high amount of quality chances. It's a team effort to reduce shots and goals against, the only way to really nitpick a goaltenders performance is to go through each game, watch each save and each goal against see if the goaltender let in a stinker.

Now from my observation of the two goaltenders.. Halak has better intensity, he fights for more pucks, he's got a better focus/concentration, he's more flexible and he has better reflexes. Price has superior rebound control, superior puck handling, he's a bigger goaltender, his blocking technique is better and I think he's the better break away goaltender due to his size. I believe that Price has all of the tools necessary to be a top flight goaltender and I don't think his performances were sub-par outside of a couple, which Halak is guilty of as well. Price's main problem is focus in that he'll loose it on a non dangerous shot and he'll let in a bad goal, which affects him the rest of the game. That is a fixable issue and it comes with maturity and experience.

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Old
07-14-2010, 07:31 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by jcbio11 View Post
Sure. The only thing that I have a problem with is people who argue that Price is somehow a better goaltender than Halak. Not to mention they use hard to measure "stats" such as rebound control, luck and talent. I remember when it at least used to be somewhat reasonable arguments, like Price plays the better teams, that's why Halak does better. To be fair, Halak destroyed that myth.
I swear to **** every three weeks were gonna deal with this, Halaks gone, deal with it we all need to move on and admit this is our team no need looking to the past nothing you can change all your doing is posting that you wouldve done differently so that in three months time if halaks doing better you can come back to here and say "LOOK I TOLD YOU THIS WOULD HAPPEN" cheer for the **** team not the player

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07-14-2010, 07:32 PM
  #353
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Btw where did you go too anyway seem liked you dissapeared for a few months

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07-14-2010, 07:33 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by ACCIDENT View Post
Btw where did you go too anyway seem liked you dissapeared for a few months
who is this question directed to?

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Old
07-14-2010, 07:35 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by InglewoodJack View Post
... Based on what?
Hal Gill and some others confronted Price with his dirty looks (attitude) at the d-men during games. Brian Gionta also expressed to management that Halak deserved to play (he battled for it) and that Price needs to realize he has to fight for it if he wants success in this league (i.e. his lazy play and laissez-faire attitude).

Jacques Martin also has been working on correcting Price's work ethic and made him do lots of drills. This is also why Price was playing back to his "normal" self after the Olympic break, posting 0.920% numbers in his last few games. Price also worked really hard during those last two months because he finally realized he can't coast on talent alone.

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07-14-2010, 07:39 PM
  #356
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This is gonna be fun all season...... I wish it were October already...proof will be in the pudding...I am betting on Price and the Habs, and not Halak and the Blues, but that's just me...

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07-14-2010, 07:42 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by InglewoodJack View Post
The only question, is if Saint Louis wanted Price, who since they wanted Price more, it means he was worth more to them, and they gave Eller, a very good prospect for Halak, what could Price have gotten? Could Pietrangelo have been involved? I'm curious. Not saying that would affect anything in my mind, but AP would have been a sick addition.
TheHabs would have wanted Oshie if they had to give up Price....and that wasn't going to happen........but I do believe they asked for Price first, and Halak second....

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07-14-2010, 08:27 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
TheHabs would have wanted Oshie if they had to give up Price....and that wasn't going to happen........but I do believe they asked for Price first, and Halak second....
Not exactly true.
The way I understood it after all was said and done by both sides was that the Blue's indeed did ask about Price first.
However, what has never been proven is whether they knew Halak was available or if they wanted Price more and settled for Halak and anyone stating either of these as fact is full of it and is pure speculation.

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07-14-2010, 09:10 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Just like I said in my previous post, you will taint reality so it fits your preconceived notions. Price wasn't exposed in the Philly series, he played injured. But yeah, if we go in that line of thought, you probably won't say Halak was "exposed" in the Philly series this year, huh? Pretty sure your bias will give us another double-standard to explain that one away.

Then you go on to say that he bounced back for a "short period", but was never as good as his first season. Both of these things are lies. The short period you say, is half a season for a goalie. It's not like it's 5 or 10 games. It's 25 games, half his friggin season, he was saving the Habs, and he did it BETTER than in his first season.

You're looking to talk to non-bias people, yet you are the most biased poster on this thread. Again, you use "bias" as your easy way out, still disregarding facts, still using your bias as the yardstick we should rest our analysis on.

And here I thought I had read the worst that could be read on this board when I encountered Nittany about a year ago, but you beat him fair and square.
The Philly series Price played and the one Halak played weren't even remotely similar. Price played on a team that carried the play, yet we still lost the series, it was a pretty bad display of net minding. Halak played on a team that struggled the entire series, got beat at every aspect of the game including the scoreboard.

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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
point is, there was 0 media or fan pressure. when he stank it up in the last stretch of the season, no one said anything. he got free pass from media and fans because of the gainey/price hate. pure speculation, but it seems to be the correct scenario. no one even expected him to be around at the beginning of the season, and all of a sudden we lost our best player since roy. kind of wierd i find.
I don't think so at all. He was given the benefit of the doubt because most people recognized he was the main reason we were even in the hunt. Sure he had some bad games, all goalies do.

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Old
07-14-2010, 09:16 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
That's the part that goalies improve while maturing...consistency. Halak is 2 years older. Look at Fleury's struggles at 20-21-22 and then his cup run.
Sort of, but the 2 years Halak has in age he doesn't really have in experience. They both have the same experience. Getting older doesn't automatically make you better, it's the experience you gain along the way, it seems to me Halak is improving at a quicker rate. Could this change? I suppose.

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07-14-2010, 09:17 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
It's hard to use goaltending stats though. I'm a goaltender myself and I know some nights I'll let in a lot of goals but I've felt I've played better than when I get a shutout.

If I face a team who has weak shooters but throw a lot on the net, I'm going to likely have a low GAA and high save percentage for that game. The next game I'm going to go out and stop high quality shots, but only face about 25 of them, and get scored on on cross-crease plays that I have very little chance of saving.. and my stats are poor even if I stopped a high amount of quality chances. It's a team effort to reduce shots and goals against, the only way to really nitpick a goaltenders performance is to go through each game, watch each save and each goal against see if the goaltender let in a stinker.

Now from my observation of the two goaltenders.. Halak has better intensity, he fights for more pucks, he's got a better focus/concentration, he's more flexible and he has better reflexes. Price has superior rebound control, superior puck handling, he's a bigger goaltender, his blocking technique is better and I think he's the better break away goaltender due to his size. I believe that Price has all of the tools necessary to be a top flight goaltender and I don't think his performances were sub-par outside of a couple, which Halak is guilty of as well. Price's main problem is focus in that he'll loose it on a non dangerous shot and he'll let in a bad goal, which affects him the rest of the game. That is a fixable issue and it comes with maturity and experience.
Thanks. Never was a goaltender and from a player's perspective it's pretty tough to judge a goaltender's job, imo. I usually just go with sv % cause it seems to me like the most telling stat. Everything you said makes perfect sense.

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07-14-2010, 10:29 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
It's hard to use goaltending stats though. I'm a goaltender myself and I know some nights I'll let in a lot of goals but I've felt I've played better than when I get a shutout.

If I face a team who has weak shooters but throw a lot on the net, I'm going to likely have a low GAA and high save percentage for that game. The next game I'm going to go out and stop high quality shots, but only face about 25 of them, and get scored on on cross-crease plays that I have very little chance of saving.. and my stats are poor even if I stopped a high amount of quality chances. It's a team effort to reduce shots and goals against, the only way to really nitpick a goaltenders performance is to go through each game, watch each save and each goal against see if the goaltender let in a stinker.

Now from my observation of the two goaltenders.. Halak has better intensity, he fights for more pucks, he's got a better focus/concentration, he's more flexible and he has better reflexes. Price has superior rebound control, superior puck handling, he's a bigger goaltender, his blocking technique is better and I think he's the better break away goaltender due to his size. I believe that Price has all of the tools necessary to be a top flight goaltender and I don't think his performances were sub-par outside of a couple, which Halak is guilty of as well. Price's main problem is focus in that he'll loose it on a non dangerous shot and he'll let in a bad goal, which affects him the rest of the game. That is a fixable issue and it comes with maturity and experience.
First off, you being a goalie is irrelevant. Doesnt need one to be able to judge... if that was the case, only ex-NHLers would coach the NHL you know...

Two, stats are no harder to judge for a goalie (compared to def or forwards)... over a long period of time it even itself out... got a bad game or two ? sure it will affect your stats if over a period of 12/15 games... wont affect as much over a 40/45 games period... and chances are that over a 82 games period the lucky nights you have will make it for the bad nights you had...

same goes no matter if you're a goalie, defensemen or forward... being a PPG player ? even the worst player in the league could do it over 6 or 7 games... but over 20 games ? or 50 ?... one night you'll make crazy passes to a linemate having an off night, the other game you'll barely touch the puck and end up with 3 or 4 pts, it happens once in a while... but over a full season ? forget it, if your skillset is one of a 4th liner you will not get 100 pts per season, guaranteed. not even 60 or 70.

Voila.

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Old
07-14-2010, 11:37 PM
  #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
First off, you being a goalie is irrelevant. Doesnt need one to be able to judge... if that was the case, only ex-NHLers would coach the NHL you know...

Two, stats are no harder to judge for a goalie (compared to def or forwards)... over a long period of time it even itself out... got a bad game or two ? sure it will affect your stats if over a period of 12/15 games... wont affect as much over a 40/45 games period... and chances are that over a 82 games period the lucky nights you have will make it for the bad nights you had...

same goes no matter if you're a goalie, defensemen or forward... being a PPG player ? even the worst player in the league could do it over 6 or 7 games... but over 20 games ? or 50 ?... one night you'll make crazy passes to a linemate having an off night, the other game you'll barely touch the puck and end up with 3 or 4 pts, it happens once in a while... but over a full season ? forget it, if your skillset is one of a 4th liner you will not get 100 pts per season, guaranteed. not even 60 or 70.

Voila.
I'm not saying anything about a bad game or two. I'm saying that you can let in 4-5 goals in games during the season and still having played a good game, the stats don't reflect that. Over a full season of work, yeah, it might even itself out, but sometimes it doesn't. Stats aren't always so black and white, that's why I prefer to go by game footage. When you look at the game footage of this season, there's only a few games I can remember where Price lost for the team.. Minnesota and Tampa are two.

Also, let's not forget here that Halak's amazing post-season run had a save percentage of .924 over the 18 games or so. Where Price's rookie season, where he played about the same amount as he did this two seasons, his save percentage was .920. Not so much of a difference between the two. So Price has already shown at a YOUNG age that he's capable of putting up miraculous numbers. Even this season where people have gotten the wrong impression because the team couldn't win with him net.. he still ended up with a .915 save percentage. Which is very solid. So, if you really WANT to look at the stats I disagree with, Price still comes off as a similar quality goaltender to Halak. Who is younger, has a higher ceiling and will undoubtedly be cheaper.

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Old
07-14-2010, 11:45 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by InglewoodJack View Post
... Based on what?
Funny, huh?

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Old
07-15-2010, 01:13 AM
  #365
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
TheHabs would have wanted Oshie if they had to give up Price....and that wasn't going to happen........but I do believe they asked for Price first, and Halak second....
How do you know this?

It's plausible, but is there proof?

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Old
07-15-2010, 02:38 AM
  #366
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
I'm not saying anything about a bad game or two. I'm saying that you can let in 4-5 goals in games during the season and still having played a good game, the stats don't reflect that. Over a full season of work, yeah, it might even itself out, but sometimes it doesn't. Stats aren't always so black and white, that's why I prefer to go by game footage. When you look at the game footage of this season, there's only a few games I can remember where Price lost for the team.. Minnesota and Tampa are two.

Also, let's not forget here that Halak's amazing post-season run had a save percentage of .924 over the 18 games or so. Where Price's rookie season, where he played about the same amount as he did this two seasons, his save percentage was .920. Not so much of a difference between the two. So Price has already shown at a YOUNG age that he's capable of putting up miraculous numbers. Even this season where people have gotten the wrong impression because the team couldn't win with him net.. he still ended up with a .915 save percentage. Which is very solid. So, if you really WANT to look at the stats I disagree with, Price still comes off as a similar quality goaltender to Halak. Who is younger, has a higher ceiling and will undoubtedly be cheaper.
Just like when you arent playing great and still end up with a good SV% or something...

they did ? really...

they're the ones available... feel free to use different ones if you want

disagree as much as you want, but having a better SV% means you are making more saves, and that's a fact. just like having a better GAA means you allow less goal per game.

You being a goalie should know that.

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07-15-2010, 05:54 AM
  #367
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
So you are insinuating that progression is linear in Halak's case? That he will just keep improving?

There's no way to predict the success of a human being from year to year. Management made a decision to trade the goaltender with the best value, Halak, because the difference between the quality of the two young netminders is so small. So we kept a goaltender who management thinks will be at the WORST slightly weaker than Halak, and maximized the other asset by getting a top level prospect for him that fits an organizational need.
Many said Price was not for trade at all, and we could have better for Price, Ron Fournier as an example said it.

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Old
07-15-2010, 06:42 AM
  #368
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Sort of, but the 2 years Halak has in age he doesn't really have in experience. They both have the same experience. Getting older doesn't automatically make you better, it's the experience you gain along the way, it seems to me Halak is improving at a quicker rate. Could this change? I suppose.
Part of the problem with Price is because a lot was given to him early without necessarily having to earn it(#1 job at 20), he got into bad habits, I think that experience set him back. While Halak was forced to earn every promotion and that helped his game improve.

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07-15-2010, 08:26 AM
  #369
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
I really don't see how it's so complicated.

Price has a higher upside than Halak. I'm sorry, it's true, whether or not he'll reach it is another question. Despite not reaching his ceiling yet, he's still on par with Halak, beneath only Halak's play-off performances in the first two rounds (though the San Jose and Nashville games come into mind where Price demonstrated similar abilities.. and also Game 7 against Boston where he got a shutout as a man younger than myself.)

So management decided this..
We will take the goaltender who will cost us less.
Who is on par with the other goaltender with the potential to be better long term.
We will then trade the other goaltender for a top level prospect.
That will allow us to save money on our cap.
This saved money on the cap allows us to keep Tomas Plekanec our 1st line center.

Price
Eller
Shultz
Plekanec

vs.
Halak
minimal return for Price
tier two center like Belanger.
??? I said it was complicated? When? Where?
I said people are very passionate about it, overly passionate in my opinion.
I see many posts where the author seem to think they have to diminish one goalie to support their pitch in favor of the other.
"Passionate", not "complicated".

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07-15-2010, 08:36 AM
  #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Just like when you arent playing great and still end up with a good SV% or something...

they did ? really...

they're the ones available... feel free to use different ones if you want

disagree as much as you want, but having a better SV% means you are making more saves, and that's a fact. just like having a better GAA means you allow less goal per game.

You being a goalie should know that.
Halak's best is slightly better than Carey Price's rookie season. Spin that how you want.

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07-15-2010, 08:40 AM
  #371
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
I really don't see how it's so complicated.

Price has a higher upside than Halak. I'm sorry, it's true, whether or not he'll reach it is another question. Despite not reaching his ceiling yet, he's still on par with Halak, beneath only Halak's play-off performances in the first two rounds (though the San Jose and Nashville games come into mind where Price demonstrated similar abilities.. and also Game 7 against Boston where he got a shutout as a man younger than myself.)

So management decided this..
We will take the goaltender who will cost us less.
Who is on par with the other goaltender with the potential to be better long term.
We will then trade the other goaltender for a top level prospect.
That will allow us to save money on our cap.
This saved money on the cap allows us to keep Tomas Plekanec our 1st line center.

Price
Eller
Shultz
Plekanec

vs.
Halak
minimal return for Price
tier two center like Belanger.
You're too logical for the True Believers, who are mentally unable to view players as commodities with finite, tradeable values. They are like investors who never part with a favorite stock in their portfolio even though its sale would free funds for the purchase of stocks with better rates of return. Julien Brisebois would understand you even if the herd doesn't.


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07-15-2010, 08:56 AM
  #372
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Just like when you arent playing great and still end up with a good SV% or something...

they did ? really...

they're the ones available... feel free to use different ones if you want

disagree as much as you want, but having a better SV% means you are making more saves, and that's a fact. just like having a better GAA means you allow less goal per game.

You being a goalie should know that.
Use your head to judge quality of shots. Its pretty easy to watch game footage and tell who had the better quality of shots, hence why philly was putting in 3-6 goals a game on less than 30 shots and washington was firing from everywhere just hoping one slides in.

The stats used are fine just use your head a little to judge the quality of them. Shot charts dont even do that justice because it shows you the area the shot is taken from but not how rushed it was, if the d-man had his stick in the way, etc.

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07-15-2010, 09:29 AM
  #373
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Halak's best is slightly better than Carey Price's rookie season. Spin that how you want.

I guess that people have over looked this little fact. We know how good Halak is and he will probably stay that good, Price is just as good and has room to get better.

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07-15-2010, 09:32 AM
  #374
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Use your head to judge quality of shots. Its pretty easy to watch game footage and tell who had the better quality of shots, hence why philly was putting in 3-6 goals a game on less than 30 shots and washington was firing from everywhere just hoping one slides in.

The stats used are fine just use your head a little to judge the quality of them. Shot charts dont even do that justice because it shows you the area the shot is taken from but not how rushed it was, if the d-man had his stick in the way, etc.
I hear what you're saying, but the Habs faced 2630 shots last season. I reckon absolutely no one has each of those shots ranked from 1 to 2630 in terms of degree of difficulty. That's why the shot counts and charts are relevant. As long as the sample size is sufficiently large, all shooting situations (being rushed/having an extra second, screen/no screen, pass in an obvious shooting situation/shoot in an obvious passing situation, stick lifted/puck bounced off a skate... they all get evened out. Bringing up a handful of occasions where each guy faced something "out of the ordinary" (Price's "bad luck" bounces, Halak facing 40+ shots) doesn't outweigh the 95% of the time when the situation, and how they have to react to it, is "nominal" and it's up to them to simply put in another day at the office.

Again, if the sample size is large enough (half a season is definitely sufficient), you should be able to take goaltending stats at pretty much face value without having to rely on whatever "context" the memory of a couple dozen odd instances seems to offer. Think about it: each guy faced about 1300 shots last year. You'd have to provide a list of around 150 "weird" incidents that adversely affected Price's stats (and 0 for Halak) to make up the difference in their save percentages. What are the chances anyone could end up with a 150 to 1 ratio list of Price's bad luck vs Halak's, even having seen all 2630 shots faced by the Habs last year?


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Old
07-15-2010, 09:36 AM
  #375
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Ah ha!

So THIS is where the Price/Halak debate rages on...

I knew it could never die

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