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Gazette - Questions Linger about Halak Trade

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Old
07-11-2010, 09:06 PM
  #126
CareyClutch
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Originally Posted by Sargent Pepper View Post

around here, the Midget AAA is not a school associated team




Not true, le college Antoine Girouard is a private school with a Midget AAA team (based on St-Hyacinthe) or le Blizzard du Séminaire Saint-François. Both are school associated team.

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07-11-2010, 09:12 PM
  #127
Blind Gardien
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
...
Bernier + Gagné
vs
Price + AK
...
But yeah that's far fetched at best. But if it were to happen, I'd like that deal from a Mtl standpoint.
Me too. I will call Bernier and Price basically a wash. Price has had more NHL experience, but hasn't done a lot with it, so I'm willing to take the risk that Bernier is just about as good and has comparable upside. Plus is cheaper. Meanwhile, regardless of what one thinks of Gagne's durability, he's a better player than AK. Period. And AK hasn't exactly been a model of durability lately either. I give up the RFA vs. UFA edge that AK has to take the better player.

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07-11-2010, 09:14 PM
  #128
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Who the **** cares if or what you played in a thread about what else was available in a trade for Halak.

I was a goalie for over 25 years going as far as starting in Junior C and riding the bench in Junior B.
That might give me a more informed opinion when evaluating goalies but it certainly doesn't help me in determining in what we could or couldn't get for Halak.

For that, you need to try and use common sense and while I know that's at a premium around here most of the time, it can be done.
I at least tried to assert some a lil earlier in my evaluation of the trade and other options. Some of you could try and do the same without ripping on each other and acting like 12 year olds.

Instead of just saying we could of got more, try looking around and tell us what and from who.

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Old
07-11-2010, 09:20 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Freaky Habs Fan View Post
I don't mind McGuire most of the time, but he's talking in hingsight. That's pretty easy to do. It's not like Kopitar and Staal were obvious choices at the time of the draft. Brule, Skille. Setogushi, Lee and Bourdon went before them. Also, at the time, Halak wasn't even supposed to become this good.

I hope he's wrong about the "we could have had more" thing. Then again, if Eller was the one we wanted, it would have been this trade over one with a first round pick and a prospect...
You got to take everything McGuire says with a grain of salt. He's not trying to stir up anything, he's just giving his opinion, which is pretty educated. I remember that 2005 draft, and I clearly remember the guys at TSN saying that Kopitar and Staal made the most sense for the Habs at the time. Its kind of like TB taking Brett Connolly instead Cam Fowler. Maybe Connolly will be good pick down the road, but Fowler made the most sense. TB needs better D, but they went for the homerun with Connolly--same as the Habs went for the homerun with Price. All McGuire is saying is that the Habs went a different rout then what he would have taken, not necessarily the wrong rout.

As far as the Eller-Halak deal, i get the feeling Gauthier really wanted Eller, maybe to the point that he didnt care to look around more. Bottom line is that he wanted no salary back, so i guess as far as low-salary guys is concerned, Eller took the cake.

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Old
07-11-2010, 09:33 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Pierre Jr View Post
You got to take everything McGuire says with a grain of salt. He's not trying to stir up anything, he's just giving his opinion, which is pretty educated. I remember that 2005 draft, and I clearly remember the guys at TSN saying that Kopitar and Staal made the most sense for the Habs at the time. Its kind of like TB taking Brett Connolly instead Cam Fowler. Maybe Connolly will be good pick down the road, but Fowler made the most sense. TB needs better D, but they went for the homerun with Connolly--same as the Habs went for the homerun with Price. All McGuire is saying is that the Habs went a different rout then what he would have taken, not necessarily the wrong rout.

As far as the Eller-Halak deal, i get the feeling Gauthier really wanted Eller, maybe to the point that he didnt care to look around more. Bottom line is that he wanted no salary back, so i guess as far as low-salary guys is concerned, Eller took the cake.
Yeah, I don't mind Pierre either, he's def head and shoulders above most of the hype filled Montreal media idiots heh.
I for one do believe Eller and Schlutz was the best he was going to get out of the west teams that were interested and yes Halak was going west. There was no way he was staying in the east whether people like it or not.

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Old
07-11-2010, 09:36 PM
  #131
Jimmy Ballzilly
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
Do you realize they got a proven & young top 4 defenseman (Allen) and a proven power forward (Bertuzzi), and this is still considered like a steal from Vancouver?

For our own potential franchise goalie, we got... 2 unproven kids??? And according to a few fans on this board, this is supposed to be fair??

JUST LOL.


+ Bertuzzi had barely no value at the time + I have seen more young and proven top-4 than Bryan Allen.

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Old
07-11-2010, 09:41 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
If by a certain russian they mean AK, and the goalie is Bernier, and by waiting on a few other chips they mean us getting Gagné.

Then it would be

Bernier + Gagné

vs

Price + AK

LA has the room to get AK who would be a replacement for Frolov. They'd also get a slightly more experienced goalie than Bernier to go along with Quick.

Philly can unload Gagné to us for whatever without taking salary back.

And we upgrade from AK to Gagné, while trading Price for Bernier. I am not sure what the goal would be behind trading Price for Bernier, but it could be because Bernier would cost less and they like Bernier more.

But yeah that's far fetched at best. But if it were to happen, I'd like that deal from a Mtl standpoint.
Why would Montreal do this?

Price and Kostitsyn are ready to break out while Bernier is still unproven and will take time and Gagne is on his last year of a big contract and has had a couple major injuries in recent years?

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07-11-2010, 09:46 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Yeah, I don't mind Pierre either, he's def head and shoulders above most of the hype filled Montreal media idiots heh.
I for one do believe Eller and Schlutz was the best he was going to get out of the west teams that were interested and yes Halak was going west. There was no way he was staying in the east whether you like it or not.
Good point about the east vs west argument--right off the bat you cross out the entire eastern conference. Also, i'm sure Gauthier put out feelers to teams about their young top end prospects, and Eller was the cream of the crop probably. The teams that McGuire said "we didn't even get a call from Gauthier" were probably in the East or had players available that were either too pricey or not at the calibre of an Eller. Not to mention the few teams there are out there that actually really needed a goalie. What does SJ have that the Habs could have gotten? Vlasic? Probably not available. Couture? I don't think he's as good (or that much better) as Eller. What other teams needed a goalie in the West? A team that could afford 3.5M a year? With Dallas trading for Lehtonen, Howard looking pretty decent in Detroit, Chicago having no cap room, STL and SJ were pretty much it. I think if you look at it that way, you realize that the Habs didn't pretty damn good. But i agree with McGuire, if Eller doesn't pan out, it's a bad deal. But hey, i doubt there were many other more surer bets out there.

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Old
07-11-2010, 09:52 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyG View Post
Why would Montreal do this?

Price and Kostitsyn are ready to break out while Bernier is still unproven and will take time and Gagne is on his last year of a big contract and has had a couple major injuries in recent years?
Why would Montreal trade Price? Well, we have no idea how the negotiations are going so if everybody plays hardball and especially Price's side, in a cap world, it could be a reason why. Is Gauthier aware that a team might offer something to Price soon and he wants to move quickly?

Something else struck me though it can only be words and we all know that's often just the case.

When Gauthier was asked about the goalie situation in Montreal prior to the Halak trade he said something along the lines of "We have to decide if we keep them both, trade one of them or TRADE THEM BOTH". Now, I'm pretty sure he didn't really have to say that. I mean, what kind of option is it really when the consensus is that you have 2 great young goalies, and you just need to decide which one to keep but yet, talk about the "scenario" of trading both goalies?

Yes, immediately after Halak trade, obviously, there was nothing in Gauthier's words that suggested Price was on the move, I mean "we decided to go with Price" and so on, does not suggest he's leaving......But did things changed lately? Who knows.

But then, the acquisition of Auld, has to suggest that if it's not Price who will be in net for us, it will be a much more proven goalie than Bernier. I like Bernier, I really do, but by trading Price, you are getting rid of the incredible amount of pressure the kid will have post-Halak era......for a guy that will have the incredible amount of pressure by being another french canadian goalie who will have to follow the footsteps of Roy and so on....

If the Habs HAVE to trade for a goalie, the best case scenario is to go for a vet that will not attract any attention whatsoever à la Vokoun, Anderson or Bryzgalov.

But they won't do it. They live by Price, they'll die by him.

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Old
07-11-2010, 10:27 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Who the **** cares if or what you played in a thread about what else was available in a trade for Halak.

I was a goalie for over 25 years going as far as starting in Junior C and riding the bench in Junior B.
That might give me a more informed opinion when evaluating goalies but it certainly doesn't help me in determining in what we could or couldn't get for Halak.

For that, you need to try and use common sense and while I know that's at a premium around here most of the time, it can be done.
I at least tried to assert some a lil earlier in my evaluation of the trade and other options. Some of you could try and do the same without ripping on each other and acting like 12 year olds.

Instead of just saying we could of got more, try looking around and tell us what and from who.
So you made it to the NHL level when?!?

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Old
07-11-2010, 10:34 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Maliki2 View Post
So you made it to the NHL level when?!?

I'm hoping you're being sarcastic cause if not, you missed the entire point of the post yet somehow managed to accentuate it at the same time.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 07-11-2010 at 10:42 PM.
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Old
07-12-2010, 01:34 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by HomaridII View Post
http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...037/story.html

"What surprised me the most about this whole thing is that (the Canadiens) didn't take their time to move Halak," McGuire said.

"If the Canadiens think that was the best deal they could have got for Jaroslav Halak, I would beg to differ, and I would argue that with them because I know of some teams that were absolutely shocked that he was traded and they didn't even get a call."
Well...Pierre Gauthier is a GM and has been working as assistant/GM for many, many years now.
Pierre McGuire on the other hand, works with Maggie the Monkey.

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Old
07-12-2010, 06:47 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Me too. I will call Bernier and Price basically a wash. Price has had more NHL experience, but hasn't done a lot with it, so I'm willing to take the risk that Bernier is just about as good and has comparable upside. Plus is cheaper. Meanwhile, regardless of what one thinks of Gagne's durability, he's a better player than AK. Period. And AK hasn't exactly been a model of durability lately either. I give up the RFA vs. UFA edge that AK has to take the better player.
Bernier & Price is not a wash. If you look at their track records to date Price is head and shoulders above Bernier. And I'm not a Price fan boy. My gut feeling is Bernier may turn out to be another Garon. Why is LA willing to trade him away?

At the junior championships if I remember correctly Price won the best goalie nomination, Bernier was pulled after being handed the #1 position. Price helped Hamilton win the AHL championship. What has Bernier done?

That trade makes no sense. We trade Price & AK for Bernier. Why? Cause we're gonna sign Gagne. Even if that was true why would we trade a goalie prospect + a 25 (almost 30 goal scorer) for a less than equal goalie prospect. If this was in the works why trade Halak?

To go from Price & Halak in nets to Bernier & Auld is a horrendous gamble worthy of Rejean Houle in his rookie season as GM.

I was at one time but am no longer a fan of Gauthier as GM but even I don't think he would make that terrible trade.


Last edited by onice: 07-12-2010 at 07:03 AM.
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Old
07-12-2010, 07:49 AM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
Bernier & Price is not a wash. If you look at their track records to date Price is head and shoulders above Bernier. And I'm not a Price fan boy. My gut feeling is Bernier may turn out to be another Garon. Why is LA willing to trade him away?
Who said LA is willing to trade him away? More folks seem to suggest they would trade their established #1 guy, Quick, if anybody, to make room for Bernier.

Track record-wise, Price never led his team into the Memorial Cup tournament. Price was not that great at the WJC, despite being fortunate enough to be on a very good team. Bernier has every bit the track record that Price does. And I *am* a Price fan boy. But also a Bernier one, apparently. Look at his AHL stats last year. I didn't see Manchester play, but those are pretty amazing numbers. Bernier is one of the top goaltending prospects in the world, NHL-ready. He's also still on his ELC, hence probably half the price of Price.

I don't think you can really go wrong with either guy. But if it's that close, I'd take the swap in order to upgrade to Gagne.

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Old
07-12-2010, 08:36 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Who said LA is willing to trade him away? More folks seem to suggest they would trade their established #1 guy, Quick, if anybody, to make room for Bernier.

Track record-wise, Price never led his team into the Memorial Cup tournament. Price was not that great at the WJC, despite being fortunate enough to be on a very good team. Bernier has every bit the track record that Price does. And I *am* a Price fan boy. But also a Bernier one, apparently. Look at his AHL stats last year. I didn't see Manchester play, but those are pretty amazing numbers. Bernier is one of the top goaltending prospects in the world, NHL-ready. He's also still on his ELC, hence probably half the price of Price.

I don't think you can really go wrong with either guy. But if it's that close, I'd take the swap in order to upgrade to Gagne.
I won't argue your point. For argument's sake I'll go alomg with your POV. If it's a wash as you say why do we have to include AK? That smacks of bad asset management. We trade goalies of supposedly equal values and we throw in AK cause we're trying to follow in the steps of Rejean Houle? And I guess we give up nothing to get Gagne. Philly is feeling generous too.

So obviously the trade will not be as you & E=HC2 are trying to make it out to be:

Bernier & gagne
for
Price & AK.

It'll be something like Bernier & Gagne
for
Price, Ak & something & something.

On the market Gagne is worth at least a draft pick & a prospect or two prospects.

I don't see it happening. Aside from the fact that we're throwing away assets, it's also going against what gauthier has done done lately. Shed payroll and gone younger. With Gagne he's going in the opposite direction and with a player who may have seen his better days.

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Old
07-12-2010, 08:40 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
I won't argue your point. For argument's sake I'll go alomg with your POV. If it's a wash as you say why do we have to include AK? That smacks of bad asset management. We trade goalies of supposedly equal values and we throw in AK cause we're trying to follow in the steps of Rejean Houle? And I guess we give up nothing to get Gagne. Philly is feeling generous too.

So obviously the trade will not be as you & E=HC2 are trying to make it out to be:

Bernier & gagne
for
Price & AK.

It'll be something like Bernier & Gagne
for
Price, Ak & something & something.

On the market Gagne is worth at least a draft pick & a prospect or two prospects.

I don't see it happening. Aside from the fact that we're throwing away assets, it's also going against what gauthier has done done lately. Shed payroll and gone younger. With Gagne he's going in the opposite direction and with a player who may have seen his better days.
Well said, i also think nothing of the sorts will happen and couldnt happen.

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Old
07-12-2010, 09:14 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
So obviously the trade will not be as you & E=HC2 are trying to make it out to be:

Bernier & gagne
for
Price & AK.

It'll be something like Bernier & Gagne
for
Price, Ak & something & something.
Maybe I need to figure out what the original scenario was. I was just responding to E=CH2's post. I agreed that I'd do that deal, nothing more.
Quote:
On the market Gagne is worth at least a draft pick & a prospect or two prospects.
I guess it depends. If he refuses to waive his NTC and Philly ends up waiving him, well, he's worth zero. Dunno how realistic that possibility is, there are stories both ways circulating.
Quote:
I don't see it happening. Aside from the fact that we're throwing away assets, it's also going against what gauthier has done done lately. Shed payroll and gone younger. With Gagne he's going in the opposite direction and with a player who may have seen his better days.
Oh for sure, it's not happening. We're just saying what we'd accept in fantasyland.

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Old
07-12-2010, 10:16 AM
  #143
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yes because our GM should be doing what the fans in this city tell him instead of what's right for the team.

and mcguire is an idiot for saying we should have drafted a kopitar because we needed that type of player. everyone knows you draft who you think is the best player available at the time, not according to what your organization needs at the moment.

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07-12-2010, 10:27 AM
  #144
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Well...Pierre Gauthier is a GM and has been working as assistant/GM for many, many years now.
Pierre McGuire on the other hand, works with Maggie the Monkey.
Must mean Pierre McGuire is wrong then?

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07-12-2010, 10:47 AM
  #145
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Must mean Pierre McGuire is wrong then?
No, it just means that Gauthier knows a lot more about the GM gig, while McGuire is talking out of his bottom, not knowing WHAT was offered, what the Habs were looking for and more especially, what was Halak's true worth on a market that is known to be very restrictive for a goalie's worth.

But for sure you will agree with the guy who wasn't behind closed doors on the phone, dealing with the true offers and the real thing, you will agree with that guy who sits comfortably behind his soapbox, doing the critic, (because it's always easier to be a critic than actually creating something), you will agree with him, because mostly, he shares your opinion, which is based on nothing more than speculation.

But no matter if it's based on speculation, not facts, you will say that he is right, even if the speculation itself doesn't hold ground against a strong argumentation of facts.

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07-12-2010, 10:52 AM
  #146
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Must mean Pierre McGuire is wrong then?
Well I guess it depends on the day and if he agrees with what you think is right.

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07-12-2010, 10:54 AM
  #147
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Well I guess it depends on the day and if he agrees with what you think is right.
I would say, mostly the latter.

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Old
07-12-2010, 11:35 AM
  #148
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my take on it...

The deal itself, Eller/Schultz for Halak, was ok, even pretty good, as far as the value we got back. Halak is "worth" more, potentially much much more (assuming he continues to play at a similar level), but the goalie market rarely generates equal value, and with all things considered, getting a quality prospect like Eller and a decent bottom 6 prospect like schultz is OK.

If McGuire is right, and the team made the trade without testing the waters, that would be pretty head scratching on a few fronts...
mostly because ever since the habs bowed out of the playoffs, rumors were circulating widely that one of halak/price was going to be moved. Wether or not those rumors reflected actual "shopping" by the habs or not, you'd think that any interested GM would have at least put out a feeler to the habs to test the waters.


If the habs were focused on getting Eller, and because of that they only openly negotiated with them, I can understand that, but I would still call into question their approach if they didn't at least listen to other offers.

as i see it, the name of the game is always asset management. Making the most/getting the most our of the assets you have. To do that well, you have to be a goo poker player. What kind of poker player you are doesn't matter (loud obnoxious type like burke, or quiet reflective type like Gainey), the key is to make the most of your "hand".

If the habs simply went after Eller, and didn't use the other potential deals to be made as leverage to get more out of the Blues, than it would be a poorly played hand... so McGuire does have a point... IF that is the case.

That said, if the habs are right in their evaluation of Eller, and he turns into more of a Zetterberg than a Pahlsson, then their gamble will have paid off.

All in all, i don't think there is anything sinister or outlandish with a hockey analyst posing "questions" about the deal and how it went down... that is their job, and if their research is accurate (in this case the fact that the habs didn't make Halak's availability known to other teams before making the deal), then scrutiny and even criticism is certainly warranted.


on a side note, all this talk of the halak deal being a follow up to the d'agostini deal is pretty ludicrous...

d'agostini and palushaj are borderline NHLer's with minimal trade value. 1 for 1 they are about as equal a swap that you are going to find. It would have been absurd for the habs to make any kind of "gentlemen's agreement" to deal Halak to the blues for "less" as pay back for that earlier trade.
we had no need of moving D'agostini, nor did we have any need to acquire palushaj...

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Old
07-12-2010, 12:37 PM
  #149
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I dont need Mcguire to know this was just an awful trade

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07-12-2010, 12:48 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by GordonGraham View Post
I dont need Mcguire to know this was just an awful trade
So you know all there is to know about Eller and Schultz and can fill us in as to what they will become in 5 years?

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