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Old
07-13-2010, 09:53 AM
  #201
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
It will take 5 years before we really know how the whole Halak-Price-Eller-Plekanec thing has worked out.

Also, save percentage is a very good stat, but you have to take into consideration what kind of team you have playing in front of the goalie at the time.

Like pitchers in baseball, some years a team plays better in front of one goalie than another(better defensively and/or scoring more goals in support) and the GAA, SV% and W-L record will reflect this.
in both sports the goal/run support is reflected in Wins-Losses. Baseball has ERA and WHIP that are individual metrics that tell more about the individual pitcher contribution to winning/losing. Like GAA and sv% they tell the better story.

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07-13-2010, 10:07 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
whats there to love exactly? the "Journalist" is accusing scouts of all over the league to scout goalies based on a "myth", and not the talents/skills of that goalie. Hes a fking moron if he thinks he "uncovered" the truth, and the actual Pro's have/had no clue.

Woa this article is jokes. (not because of what hes trying to say, but how he said it, and if you know 1 ounce of journalism/writting, you know this is a joke of an article)
What's to love is that for countless posts I've seen people dismiss Halak as a midget goalie who can't hold his own against big teams and big players. I've also heard about how Price is better because he's bigger and tougher.

Or how because he's bigger he can automatically play more games as a result despite the fact that Halak has played more games in 09-10 than Price ever has in a single NHL season (if you include playoffs+olympics).

In truth, I don't feel size has helped him that much if at all. Halak has always stopped more pucks and won more games than Price.

I like the article because a lot of people put way too much stock in the size of the keeper and that's certainly an interesting take on it. I've never seen that argued on here, at least not in the habs section of these forums. I think it's innovative.

I am strong enough mentally to discard his personal opinions and conclusions and only consider the facts he's brought up. And there's certainly a valuable discussion to be had there.

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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
IMO , sports org spend millions of dollars on all kind of tools to get better (Scouts, Stats, Advisers etc). Media spends a fraction of that. Most their info now a days comes from P Mag, who knows a couple of NHL dudes, and HFBoards. IMO Ive seen these same arguments/stats being used prior in the goalie debates, numerous of times. And like the people prior who seemed to know better then the pros, this guy is the same.
The classic, they're pros, no one knows better than them excuse. Well, Milbury, Houle and countless other clowns have been pros as well. The pros aren't always right you know.

But even then, the facts are still indisputable that size doesn't seem to make a major difference. It hasn't in the past 10 years when the big goalies have started to pop up.

I personally think between two equally skilled goalies then size can help but the truth is that things are never equal.

A LOT of people didn't like the fact we chose Price over Halak. Good luck to Price and Halak for the upcoming season. Hopefully Price steps up or else it's going to be a long season for him, especially if Halak does well in St-Louis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perrah View Post
There are a few goalies worth more, but not a goalie compared to hasek with half a good season and a playoff run.
I'm not comparing Halak to Hasek, I'm just saying that saying goalies should never be worth more than 4M is silly.

Some goalies are exceptional.

And the truth is that goaltending is most likely the position where you can have the biggest impact on a team individually. People will counter with the fact that teams with Osgood, Niemi, etc have won cups. And while this is true, those goalies still had to step up and play well in the playoffs for their teams to win.

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Old
07-13-2010, 10:18 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
So Dominic Hasek in his prime was all just a hoax really and is a product and he wouldn't be worth a max cap hit now ?
10 years ago it was an other story....Hasek-roy-brodeur( at 28 y/o) were awesome and their were making a huge impact on their team. But now pretty much ALL goalie in the nhl are good....It's just a matter of system , luck , D squad and little bit of ''talent''.

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Old
07-13-2010, 10:20 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by JimCareyPrice View Post
in both sports the goal/run support is reflected in Wins-Losses. Baseball has ERA and WHIP that are individual metrics that tell more about the individual pitcher contribution to winning/losing. Like GAA and sv% they tell the better story.
Yeah, but a pitcher is less dependant on his team for ERA and WHIP than a goalie for AVG and Save%.

In hockey, a team that is dominant defensively can limit the quality shots to a few per game or simply control the play most of the game. In baseball both teams go to bat and it's a lot more on the pitcher to hitting.

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07-13-2010, 10:31 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
So Dominic Hasek in his prime was all just a hoax really and is a product and he wouldn't be worth a max cap hit now ?
Hasek was in my opinion the best goalie ever, dude was just amazing, and was league MVP for multiple seasons. I think he might be a bit of an exception to any rule of goalie pay. Your extreme comparison is not a a correct one.

Lets look at some of the current "best" big money goalies:

-Lunqvist, yes he did keep the Rangers competitive, but when the season was on the line in the final game he failed bigtime.

-Luongo, LOLuongo rides again, posting 3 games between .815 and .860 in a playoff series.

-Miller, probably worth his pay, had a legitimate claim on Hart trophy, but did deliver stinkers in a couple of playoff games where his team had given him 3 goals in support.

These guys are arguably the 3 best currently in the league, I won't even start on some of the terrible failure 4+ million contracts like Giguere, Thomas, Huet, Fleury, Huet, DiPietro, Leclaire, etc. All albatrosses hanging over their respective teams.

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Old
07-13-2010, 10:38 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Hasek was in my opinion the best goalie ever, dude was just amazing, and was league MVP for multiple seasons. I think he might be a bit of an exception to any rule of goalie pay. Your extreme comparison is not a a correct one.

Lets look at some of the current "best" big money goalies:

-Lunqvist, yes he did keep the Rangers competitive, but when the season was on the line in the final game he failed bigtime.

-Luongo, LOLuongo rides again, posting 3 games between .815 and .860 in a playoff series.

-Miller, probably worth his pay, had a legitimate claim on Hart trophy, but did deliver stinkers in a couple of playoff games where his team had given him 3 goals in support.

These guys are arguably the 3 best currently in the league, I won't even start on some of the terrible failure 4+ million contracts like Giguere, Thomas, Huet, Fleury, Huet, DiPietro, Leclaire, etc. All albatrosses hanging over their respective teams.
Go ahead, nominate Halak for the Hall of Fame immediately if not sooner. Reminds me of Théodore's halo after the 2001-02 season. By the way, Halak, like some of the abovementioned goaltenders, also had some lousy playoff performances in each series.

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Old
07-13-2010, 10:40 AM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
So Dominic Hasek in his prime was all just a hoax really and is a product of the defense that was in front of him and he wouldn't be worth a max cap hit now ?
For today's hockey, he is right.

There aren't any true franchise goalies à la Roy, Belfour, Hasek and Brodeur anymore. The only ones who come close are Miller and Luongo (both much bigger than Halak, at least in height). The defensive systems have spread fully, and now, a big part of a goalie's performance is a product of his teamates and system he plays in, and great runs coincide with a goalie's hot streak.

How many goalies have you seen spring forth with a huge season only to go down the following seasons. I can name you a bunchload. Turco, Kiprussof, THEODORE, Lundqvist, Emery, Price, Bryzgalov, Thomas, Backstrom, Giguère, Mason, Ellis, Huet and so many others. That's because the talent competition is very close.

20 years ago, you sometimes had over a 1,00 GAA difference between the best goalie and the average goalie in the league.

Today, it's not even half of that. This league never had as much talent on a 30 teams roster, and the position with the least spot to fill on a talent pool 100 times bigger than 20 years ago, makes it that the 60 or so goalies that come in are all very talented and could dominate pretty much any other league, especially the top 30 starters among the 60 spots.

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Old
07-13-2010, 11:08 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by scottyG View Post
Price is better or the same in every categorie you just mentioned...

Also frame/size for a goalie is not overrated.
Wrong + 10.

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Old
07-13-2010, 11:14 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Perrah View Post
Nothing to see here folks, trade has been done for weeks.

Few points though
Why is halak turning the Blues into a stanley cup contender they are in the hardest division in hockey IMO, if anything they could do ****tier than last year as goaltending wasnt their problem.

Believe it or not but halak cant use 38" pads next year, and his chest protector will be a bit smaller too. That will have an effect on him. How about we give it atleast 20 games? I know this wont happen as using reason and common sense is a like finding unicorns around here.
Dumbest argument ever spewed on these boards.

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07-13-2010, 11:35 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Dumbest argument ever spewed on these boards.
Its not an argument, its a fact he wont be able to use 38" pads next year. I never said he will be terrible but it will be a learning curve. It will either make his 5 hole bigger or his leg span will be smaller.

There was a post on the main forum about the new goalie gear over a month ago.

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07-13-2010, 11:44 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Perrah View Post
Its not an argument, its a fact he wont be able to use 38" pads next year. I never said he will be terrible but it will be a learning curve. It will either make his 5 hole bigger or his leg span will be smaller.

There was a post on the main forum about the new goalie gear over a month ago.
what those facts dont say is HOW it will affect each goalies... who's to say smaller goalies wont be quicker while bigger ones will not be fast enough to compensate...

have to wait and see I guess.

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07-13-2010, 11:50 AM
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perrah View Post
Its not an argument, its a fact he wont be able to use 38" pads next year. I never said he will be terrible but it will be a learning curve. It will either make his 5 hole bigger or his leg span will be smaller.

There was a post on the main forum about the new goalie gear over a month ago.
In your defense, you simply said "it will have an effect on him." Whether or not your mentioning it implies you think it will adversely affect him is obviously where the conversation is going next.

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07-13-2010, 11:51 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
what those facts dont say is HOW it will affect each goalies... who's to say smaller goalies wont be quicker while bigger ones will not be fast enough to compensate...

have to wait and see I guess.
Right..as if larger pads were a disadvantage???

Cuz that's why the NHL had to step in to start limiting oversized pads?? Cuz goalies were disadvantaging themselves with them?? LOL!!

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07-13-2010, 11:53 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
what those facts dont say is HOW it will affect each goalies... who's to say smaller goalies wont be quicker while bigger ones will not be fast enough to compensate...

have to wait and see I guess.
Bigger goalies would already wear the max size I would assume, cant see a big goalie wearing small gear and still not being allowed. I never said how, im speculating with in reason that making a goalies gear smaller that the area he covers smaller and thus making it more difficult. You can say he will be faster and that could very well be true. I never said halak should have been traded because of that, im just stating a point that could affect his performance or maybe it wont. if he wants to call me an idiot because I put up a point then so be it. Im not going to be butthurt about it.

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07-13-2010, 12:31 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
In your defense, you simply said "it will have an effect on him." Whether or not your mentioning it implies you think it will adversely affect him is obviously where the conversation is going next.
Well it could help him in quickness like someone mentioned but it also reduces his area covered. It wont be career shattering or anything but it could result in a some more goals, maybe not like I said in the first one we can wait 20 games then chat about it in a civilized manner ala Right Guard charles barkley.

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07-13-2010, 12:42 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Right..as if larger pads were a disadvantage???

Cuz that's why the NHL had to step in to start limiting oversized pads?? Cuz goalies were disadvantaging themselves with them?? LOL!!

tried both and KNOW th difference between smaller/bigger equipment... that's why you're laughing I assume ?

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07-13-2010, 12:45 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Perrah View Post
Bigger goalies would already wear the max size I would assume, cant see a big goalie wearing small gear and still not being allowed. I never said how, im speculating with in reason that making a goalies gear smaller that the area he covers smaller and thus making it more difficult. You can say he will be faster and that could very well be true. I never said halak should have been traded because of that, im just stating a point that could affect his performance or maybe it wont. if he wants to call me an idiot because I put up a point then so be it. Im not going to be butthurt about it.
huh... why would I do that...


as for your point, it is valid as it will affect goalies in some way...but I dont think it will affect only the small goalies like most seems to think.

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07-13-2010, 12:49 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
huh... why would I do that...


as for your point, it is valid as it will affect goalies in some way...but I dont think it will affect only the small goalies like most seems to think.
Nah habsjunkie was the one calling me an idiot. Yeah the chest protector affects them all but the pads hurts the goalies under 6' or 6'1 if they were using 38" pads.

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Old
07-13-2010, 12:57 PM
  #219
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What we got in the deal is all right IMHO. Fair value.

That being said, if Halak keeps improving and pulls the same kind of performances next year, and if Price struggles to accomplish more than he did in the last 2 years, don't fool yourself. He's no longer be part of the Montreal Canadiens. Not because the management will give up on him. The fans just won't be willing to forgive this to the organization, and with good reason.

Trading actual performances instead of potential is risky. If it pays off, it ends up being a great move. If Price falters, he's done as dinner here. And hopefully Gauthier is never allowed in the Bell Centre ever again.

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07-13-2010, 01:02 PM
  #220
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No one really knows what Eller can bring. This isn't bad trade until Eller flops, then we lost our playoff hero for nothing, but if Eller turns in to the player the experts think he will become, we got a really good/great player in the deal.

I am not really worried, and well the people at the gazette have to sell papers, nothing sells more then controversy.

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07-13-2010, 01:10 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Perrah View Post
Nah habsjunkie was the one calling me an idiot. Yeah the chest protector affects them all but the pads hurts the goalies under 6' or 6'1 if they were using 38" pads.
agreed about the pads, but some of the bigger goalies arent that fast so having smaller equipment may make them more vulerable...

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07-13-2010, 01:13 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
agreed about the pads, but some of the bigger goalies arent that fast so having smaller equipment may make them more vulerable...
smaller equipment would mean more trouble for Price than it would for Halak IMHO. Halak fights for pucks and is always working his ass off to compensate for his size. He'll just keep doing it, whereas Price is more of a positional goalie letting pucks come to him.

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07-13-2010, 01:15 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Cam A Larry View Post
smaller equipment would mean more trouble for Price than it would for Halak IMHO. Halak fights for pucks and is always working his ass off to compensate for his size. He'll just keep doing it, whereas Price is more of a positional goalie letting pucks come to him.
I dont know about Price as he's still young and may be able to adjust, but these are the ones who'll have more trouble adjusting IMO.

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07-13-2010, 01:47 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Cam A Larry View Post
smaller equipment would mean more trouble for Price than it would for Halak IMHO. Halak fights for pucks and is always working his ass off to compensate for his size. He'll just keep doing it, whereas Price is more of a positional goalie letting pucks come to him.
I dont know, for the past 2 years or so you could see that they were different at the start but probably half way through last season it seemed like they were becoming more and more similar in movements and such. Im no expert just what I noticed.

I dont agree entirely with price having a harder time because the chest protector shrinking is minimal, but the 2 inches or so halak will lose off of each pad is just hard from all the repetition he would have from using the bigger pads over the past few years. But that's just my opinion which means nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
agreed about the pads, but some of the bigger goalies arent that fast so having smaller equipment may make them more vulerable...
No doubt it would, I dont know where price ranks on a quickness scale but I dont think he is slow for a big guy unlike Giguere who is like molasses out there.

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07-13-2010, 01:57 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by Perrah View Post
Nah habsjunkie was the one calling me an idiot. Yeah the chest protector affects them all but the pads hurts the goalies under 6' or 6'1 if they were using 38" pads.
Wasn't calling you an idiot at all. I just find you go to great lengths to try and diminish Halak. You're one of the posters whose opinion I value quite a bit, but the goalie thing is one where we'll never agree and I certainly don't think the equipment issue is an issue.

I've heard it repeatedly, but I don't think Halak will have any problems at all because of it, certainly no more than anyone else. It is largely over blown IMO.

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