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Old
07-13-2010, 01:36 AM
  #26
Trottier
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Relatively speaking, a young talented dman has more market value in the NHL than does a young talented winger. This deal, frankly, is not that close, the requisite HF #2 notwithstanding.

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07-13-2010, 02:01 AM
  #27
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Doesn't work for NYR, I imagine. Maybe if their defense was loaded, they could afford to overpay for a very good winger like Setoguchi. But they have defensive problems as it is. Also, to my understanding, the NYR brass and fanbase think very highly of Staal....

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Old
07-13-2010, 02:09 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by BPD View Post
Hmm...possible franchise D for a good consistent 60 point guy.

Not gonna go over well when the NYR guys take note, sir. To us, Staal is literally untouchable.
Umm no. He's not even a "consistent 60 point guy" at all. He scored 60 points ONE time a season ago. Last year he scored 36 points in 70 games. Brandon Dubinsky outscored him in fewer games. Setoguchi is a nice player who I'd like to have, but certainly not for Staal, not even for Girardi. Not trying to be cruel but this proposal is honestly laughable. Staal wouldn't be moved for anything less than a legit and young #1 center.

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Old
07-13-2010, 02:34 AM
  #29
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not going to happen

I hope sharks management/fans understands that defense wins championships. So with this offer they are sniffing up the right tree but as has been said NY needs a center not a winger

staal is going to be a top pairing defenseman in the NHL

it would be possible to get him but not for something NY doesn't need, which is a center for gaborik

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Old
07-13-2010, 02:43 AM
  #30
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SJ can add a 1st on top of the 2nd round pick, and Rangers still wouldn't even think about it. Not for a split second.

Staal is a 23 year old 1st pairing dmen who more than doubled his prior season's point-total. 27 ES points isn't a shabby number on an offensive depleted team. Especially when your main priority is shutting down the oppositions best.

He's progressed offensively every season, so there's no reason to assume his development in that area of his game is going to diminish any time soon. It will improve. Dramatically if Sather ever figures it out, and surrounds Staal with the talent he ultimately deserves to play with.

Mike Green isn't a 70 point player on last season's Rangers team. Staal, I guarantee you would surpass 40 points as a Capital while providing truly exceptional defense. You want everything this kid has to offer. All the intangibles you hear coaches and GM's rave about, but are often overlooked on hf.

No chance in hell the Rangers trade a bona fide 1st pairing 23 year old shut-down dman for a talented, very likeable, 2nd line winger.

Who replaces Staal when the Rangers match-up against teams that have Crosby or AO? Bah.. Every single team in the league has a capable 1st line. Some have played their cards right and have superstars on their second lines. Staal cannot be replaced. He wouldn't be traded for a legit 1st liner because the Rangers would be ****** from a defensive standpoint.

Staal is as untouchable as you can get from a Rangers pov. He's not the best at his position. Not even close. But there's nobody here that can even potentially replace his reliability.

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Old
07-13-2010, 02:59 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DelZottoFutureNorris View Post
Umm no. He's not even a "consistent 60 point guy" at all. He scored 60 points ONE time a season ago. Last year he scored 36 points in 70 games. Brandon Dubinsky outscored him in fewer games. Setoguchi is a nice player who I'd like to have, but certainly not for Staal, not even for Girardi. Not trying to be cruel but this proposal is honestly laughable. Staal wouldn't be moved for anything less than a legit and young #1 center.
gotta love how people read stats yet don't even to look into the fact that he was injuried badly at the begining of the year...after starting off on a pace for 50 goals.

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Old
07-13-2010, 03:08 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoner View Post
Why do Ranger fans act like they know our players inside and out with every proposal, you have maybe really watched Seto play 5 times, like I have with Staal, whats so great about Staal if I may ask? Seems like Vlasic with a lil more offence to me. Considering Seto was on pace for 50 goals the first few weeks of the season before his injury, and scored 30 last year, if I had to place a bet on Seto scoring 40 sometime in his career I would put my money on him doing it, easily. There are not many natural right wingers in this league with his size,speed,skill, and shot, even less that are 23
I'm not sure what your point is since like I said I guess Setoguchi could POSSIBLY be a 40 goal scorer again. I never once claimed to act like I know Setoguchi inside and out.

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Old
07-13-2010, 03:19 AM
  #33
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LOL...

NO.

Midget Setoguchi and a 2nd doesn't net you a franchise #1 defenseman.

Staal is not going anywhere.

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Old
07-13-2010, 03:22 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
LOL...

Midget Setoguchi
Without searching the internet, tell me how big (height and weight) you believe Setoguchi to be.

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Old
07-13-2010, 03:26 AM
  #35
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gotta love how people read stats yet don't even to look into the fact that he was injuried badly at the begining of the year...after starting off on a pace for 50 goals.
LOL "on pace for"

Aaron Voros was "on pace for" 50 goals two years ago when he scored 9 goals in the first 15 games of the season.

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Old
07-13-2010, 03:46 AM
  #36
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if the sharks want to trade for staal the conversation STARTS with marleau and a 3rd from the rangers perspective and goes from there.. staal routinely matches up with AO, crosby, basically the oppositions best night in and night out. he maintains a relatively decent +/- for the most part and contributes as much as he can offensively on an offensively inept team. as has been previously pointed out, the rangers dont have the defensive depth to afford the loss of their #1 D-man so in order to adjust for the more goals against we better be getting back an elite 1st line center with the ability to make up and exceed the deficit.

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Old
07-13-2010, 03:50 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by 518NYRfan View Post
if the sharks want to trade for staal the conversation STARTS with marleau and a 3rd from the rangers perspective and goes from there.. staal routinely matches up with AO, crosby, basically the oppositions best night in and night out. he maintains a relatively decent +/- for the most part and contributes as much as he can offensively on an offensively inept team. as has been previously pointed out, the rangers dont have the defensive depth to afford the loss of their #1 D-man so in order to adjust for the more goals against we better be getting back an elite 1st line center with the ability to make up and exceed the deficit.
First of all, Marleau is better as a wing. Proven.

Secondly, Marleau and a 1st would be closer considering Marleau's 7 million cap hit (6.9). Staal's cap-hit will only be 4-4.5 on his next contract and likely for 4-6 years.

San Jose isn't getting a 23 year old #1 shutdown D-man AND 3 million in cap-space for Marleau and a 3rd. I really don't want anything San Jose has enough to give up Staal. Not for Thornton, not for any combination of players and picks either. The guy is a rock on D and he's only going to get better. Trading him for anything less than a superstar forward on a reasonable long-term contract would be bad management.

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Old
07-13-2010, 03:56 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by DelZottoFutureNorris View Post
First of all, Marleau is better as a wing. Proven.

Secondly, Marleau and a 1st would be closer considering Marleau's 7 million cap hit (6.9). Staal's cap-hit will only be 4-4.5 on his next contract and likely for 4-6 years.

San Jose isn't getting a 23 year old #1 shutdown D-man AND 3 million in cap-space for Marleau and a 3rd. I really don't want anything San Jose has enough to give up Staal. Not for Thornton, not for any combination of players and picks either. The guy is a rock on D and he's only going to get better. Trading him for anything less than a superstar forward on a reasonable long-term contract would be bad management.
thats why i said starts there. hell, id throw redden in to the deal for free for marleau, a 1st and 3rd in 2011 and a mid level prospect.

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Old
07-13-2010, 06:13 AM
  #39
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Staal at 23 is the Rangers best defenseman. It's not even close and IMO our d is not that great. That in itself is a deal breaker. On the question of whether he's going to be a big point producer--I think 35--maybe 40 is going to be his max. He's a bit like Chris Phillips--maybe a little better offensively.

MDZ has No. 1 d-man written all over him. He's not going to be traded either. A 19 year old who put up 37 points and threw around 160 hits. He's willing--has excellent vision, creativity, offensive instinct. He needs to get stronger and work on his defense (again he's 19). By the time he hits Staal's age now though he should be something really good if not something special.

I don't know all that much about Setoguchi--whether he's going to be first or second line material but Staal and MDZ are the cornerstones of our future defense and no way the Rangers should give them up unless there's some major overpayment.

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Old
07-13-2010, 08:25 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
SJ can add a 1st on top of the 2nd round pick, and Rangers still wouldn't even think about it. Not for a split second.

Staal is a 23 year old 1st pairing dmen who more than doubled his prior season's point-total. 27 ES points isn't a shabby number on an offensive depleted team. Especially when your main priority is shutting down the oppositions best.

He's progressed offensively every season, so there's no reason to assume his development in that area of his game is going to diminish any time soon. It will improve. Dramatically if Sather ever figures it out, and surrounds Staal with the talent he ultimately deserves to play with.

Mike Green isn't a 70 point player on last season's Rangers team. Staal, I guarantee you would surpass 40 points as a Capital while providing truly exceptional defense. You want everything this kid has to offer. All the intangibles you hear coaches and GM's rave about, but are often overlooked on hf.

No chance in hell the Rangers trade a bona fide 1st pairing 23 year old shut-down dman for a talented, very likeable, 2nd line winger.

Who replaces Staal when the Rangers match-up against teams that have Crosby or AO? Bah.. Every single team in the league has a capable 1st line. Some have played their cards right and have superstars on their second lines. Staal cannot be replaced. He wouldn't be traded for a legit 1st liner because the Rangers would be ****** from a defensive standpoint.

Staal is as untouchable as you can get from a Rangers pov. He's not the best at his position. Not even close. But there's nobody here that can even potentially replace his reliability.
Calling Staal a 1st pairing d-man after playing one season in that role is no different than calling Setoguchi a 1st line winger after playing one season in that role. I understand the unwillingness to give up Staal but the constant degrading of Setoguchi on these boards is rather disgusting and not by you per se. Most people think it's all Thornton. Most people forget his injury issues. Most people look down on him because he wasn't on the first line but conveniently overlook that it's not a slight to be behind Marleau and Heatley as a winger and that he was holding his own before he got hurt.

Seto is a bona fide 1st line right winger when he's not playing behind All-Star wingers. After what Setoguchi went through this year, 20 goals is actually a testament to his natural scoring ability because he was hurt for a good stretch, awful for a good stretch, and playing with 3rd and 4th liners for a good stretch, and worked his way back up to where you can rely on him contributing in some small way to the team. I wouldn't trade him for Staal knowing full well that the Sharks would have to add to get Staal but mostly because it's stupid to fill one hole by creating another.

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Old
07-13-2010, 09:23 AM
  #41
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Marc Staal's value is higher than Setoguchi's for a number of reasons, the fact that he is a D-man, that the Rangers would be dealing their BEST player outside of Gaborik and Lundqvist, the fact that this leaves the Rangers without a cornerstone.

But the Sharks? Setoguchi is just some offense on an offensive powerhouse, by trading Setoguchi the Sharks offense will dip, but not by much. This is a very easy trade for the Sharks to make, and a very difficult one for the NYR.

Want to cook up something crazy that can work for both sides?

To NYR
Pavelski
Huskins

To SJS
Girardi
1st Round 2010
Ethan Werek

The Sharks wouldn't have Staal on the first pairing anyway, he'd be playing as the #3/4, which is exactly where Girardi could play best. Girardi, while not as good as Staal in any facet of the game, is the Rangers 3rd best D-man behind Rozsival. He blocks a ton of shots, plays great on the PK, has a good offensive mind, and will definitely be at least a #3/4 guy for the next 5-6 years, not to mention he's not on such a bad contract now.

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Old
07-13-2010, 09:51 AM
  #42
Gardner McKay
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If the Sharks want Staal, the conversation starts with Pavelski. Sather hangs up the phone laughing on this one.
Not really. You guys make it sound like every offer for Marc Staal is outlandish and off base and thats just not true. Value wise its not far off. Do I feel the Rangers would need a little more to actually want to do this deal? Yes but overall its a good proposal.

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Old
07-13-2010, 09:52 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Sharks4Life View Post
gotta love how people read stats yet don't even to look into the fact that he was injuried badly at the begining of the year...after starting off on a pace for 50 goals.
For what 8 games?

Hell Aaron Voros was on a 40 goal pace after 8 games two years ago.

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Old
07-13-2010, 09:54 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Calling Staal a 1st pairing d-man after playing one season in that role is no different than calling Setoguchi a 1st line winger after playing one season in that role. I understand the unwillingness to give up Staal but the constant degrading of Setoguchi on these boards is rather disgusting and not by you per se. Most people think it's all Thornton. Most people forget his injury issues. Most people look down on him because he wasn't on the first line but conveniently overlook that it's not a slight to be behind Marleau and Heatley as a winger and that he was holding his own before he got hurt.

Seto is a bona fide 1st line right winger when he's not playing behind All-Star wingers. After what Setoguchi went through this year, 20 goals is actually a testament to his natural scoring ability because he was hurt for a good stretch, awful for a good stretch, and playing with 3rd and 4th liners for a good stretch, and worked his way back up to where you can rely on him contributing in some small way to the team. I wouldn't trade him for Staal knowing full well that the Sharks would have to add to get Staal but mostly because it's stupid to fill one hole by creating another.
This was his 2nd year in that role. Honestly, hes been our best defenseman since hes been up here.

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Old
07-13-2010, 09:57 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by 518NYRfan View Post
if the sharks want to trade for staal the conversation STARTS with marleau and a 3rd from the rangers perspective and goes from there.
That is possibly the funniest thing I have read in awhile.....

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Old
07-13-2010, 10:00 AM
  #46
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I dont think many rational people would consider Staal a franchise defenseman. I think to be considered a franchise defenseman, you need to produce both offensively and defensively. He hit 27 points last year, but I think a franchise defenseman should be hitting 35-40+ points consistently.

Elite defensive defenseman? Yes. Top pairing defenseman? Id say so. Franchise defenseman? I dont think so.
He doubled his points output last year and showed no sign of stopping. I'd be willing to lay down some clams on the wager that he hits 35 this year.

Oh. He's 22.

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Old
07-13-2010, 10:02 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by DelZottoFutureNorris View Post
Umm no. He's not even a "consistent 60 point guy" at all. He scored 60 points ONE time a season ago. Last year he scored 36 points in 70 games. Brandon Dubinsky outscored him in fewer games. Setoguchi is a nice player who I'd like to have, but certainly not for Staal, not even for Girardi. Not trying to be cruel but this proposal is honestly laughable. Staal wouldn't be moved for anything less than a legit and young #1 center.
In the future, Seto will be a decently consistent 30/30 guy. He'll have spiked years where he threatens 80 and maybe some down years like this one.

Either way, I wouldn't really consider trading Staal for him.

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Old
07-13-2010, 10:03 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Ovechking View Post
I never realized how overrated Marc Staal is on this board.
That he may be but Seto still isn't close to fair value. The Rangers don't have Thornton or even Pavelski so 20 goals would be a reasonable expectation for Seto and that isn't enough to part with Staal.

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07-13-2010, 10:09 AM
  #49
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I never realized how overrated Marc Staal is on this board.
He won't be overrated in 2014 when he's on the backline in Sochi shutting down everything that enters the Canadian zone.

But yeah, totally overrated, I can't believe how overrated he is, blahdey blahdey blah blah blah no Rangers could ever be extremely talented young players blah blah blah.

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07-13-2010, 10:18 AM
  #50
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Good lord this thread is out of control.

Staal is not a franchise defensemen, he's got a long ways to go. Right now I'd say he's similar to Vlasic with a bit more developed offensive side. Vlasic is incredibly valuable (and is 23), and so is Marc Staal, but to call either of them at this point franchise defensmen is jumping the gun a bit. Either could develop into impressive players, but could and will are a long way apart.

So let's leave franchise quality forwards like Marleau out of the discussion ok? it just makes the thread devolve into snarking. That would be like us demanding Gaborik for Vlasic, it's just not realistic.

The only two players on the Sharks I see the Rangers having any use for are Seto and Heatley. I wish Heatley was tradeable, but he isn't. So Seto + for Staal is about the only way this works, so basically we are bad trading partners.

Trading Seto makes this team slower, this team can not afford to be any slower.

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