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Gagne and Hartnell to LA

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Old
07-15-2010, 01:11 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Legit 3rd line center? How many centers do you need?
Briere and Giroux should be on the wings

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07-15-2010, 01:13 PM
  #77
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Doubt it's Smyth going the other way. He really clicked with Kopitar and those two are dynamite together. The Kings like having Smyth, he's a huge part of their team.

Now Williams I would believe.

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Old
07-15-2010, 01:13 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovechking View Post
To Los Angeles:
Simon Gagne
Scott Hartnell
Sheldon Souray

To Edmonton:
Ryan Smyth
Jarret Stoll

To Philadelphia:
Johnathan Quick
Andrew Cogliano
EDM 2nd in 2011.

Am I way off here?

Problems:
Will LA want Souray's contract?
Is Philly getting enough in return?
Is Edmonton giving up enough?


Just trying to create the structure for people to work with here, so try to go easy on me.

Edit: this would assume LA doesn't sign Kovy for obvious cap reasons.
PaSs from Philly.

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Old
07-15-2010, 01:14 PM
  #79
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i agree the flyers need a #3C, but it doesn't look to be in the cards in the near future.

giroux and briere both belong in the top 6 be it on the wing or center (preferably C for giroux, RW for briere). you don't put a playmaker on the 3rd line.

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07-15-2010, 01:14 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Sh0otnSc0re View Post
PaSs from Philly.
and LA.

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Old
07-15-2010, 01:18 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
Briere and Giroux should be on the wings
You're silly. The dichotomy between Briere at RW and Briere at C is overwhelming.

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07-15-2010, 01:18 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by SpezDispenser View Post
Really? Aside from the Smyth trade, when was the last time Lombardi did anything even remotely big?
Signed Kovalchuk

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Old
07-15-2010, 01:19 PM
  #83
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It'll probably be something along the lines of:

Stoll+Teubert/Hickey(or equivalent prospect)+1st/2nd/3rd(a pick of some kind)

for

Gagne and Hartnell

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Old
07-15-2010, 01:20 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
Briere and Giroux should be on the wings
Yea Briere showed he needs to be on the wings after his 56 point performance. He thrives at center, look at the playoffs, look at his first season here, look at him with buffalo, he is a center, the wing is not for him.

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07-15-2010, 01:20 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by JohnnyOnTheSpot View Post
You're silly. The dichotomy between Briere at RW and Briere at C is overwhelming.
i actually think his regular season PPG at wing and center are nearly identical over the last few years. he's very noticeable when he plays center, but so is anyone. centers have the puck more frequently than do wingers.

edit: i will concede that hartnell-briere-leino was an epic line though.

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Old
07-15-2010, 01:20 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovechking View Post
To Los Angeles:
Simon Gagne
Scott Hartnell
Sheldon Souray

To Edmonton:
Ryan Smyth
Jarret Stoll

To Philadelphia:
Johnathan Quick
Andrew Cogliano
EDM 2nd in 2011.

Am I way off here?

Problems:
Will LA want Souray's contract?
Is Philly getting enough in return?
Is Edmonton giving up enough?


Just trying to create the structure for people to work with here, so try to go easy on me.

Edit: this would assume LA doesn't sign Kovy for obvious cap reasons.
Too much of a return with Souray involved. No team wanted him for free (waivers) so Edmonton is stuck with that contract unless they want to pay someone to take him off their hands.

Also, is everyone just assuming that Smyth is going back in the deal? Why would that make sense seeing as how LA is trying to pick up scoring from the wing?

It also makes no sense having him go back to Philly (regardless of how well he'd fit). Philly is looking to clear cap space as they are currently $2 million and change over the cap. Picking up a contract that has another 2 years for north of $6 million a year doesn't help their cause much now and it certainly doesn't help it in the future.

Philly will be looking to deal Gagne with little salary coming back in return. Prospects and picks. Philly has no leverage here.

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Old
07-15-2010, 01:21 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LAX attack View Post
Like Hartnell and an injury-prone Simon Gagne?

The Kings get a lot IF both Hartnell and Gagne come to LA, hardly trash. They both are extrememly talented hockey players with 3-5 years of great hockey from Hartnell and 2-3 years left of solid productive Gagne. Hartnell had an off year last year and still ended up with 44 Points (30 assists) and played lights out in the Finals with Briere and Leino. When Hartnell is on, he is a dynamic hockey player that can hurt teams (perhaps his own included) in many ways. In a career year, he is 30-30 and a great year in the future he is 25-25 and adds a sense of toughness/grit to the lineup. He would be an upgrade to the Kings depth. Gagne would instantly be the best 2 way player on the the team, even with his "injury problems". 40 goal scorers with Gagne's defensive awareness don't grow on trees. Honestly, Gagne and Hartnell are worth more to the Flyers than they will be on the open market or in a trade situation, but since there is a rigid cap, rumors like these spread. Flyers will get a lot less skilled and become one of the smaller forward groups in the league, even with JVR and Giroux finding permanent spots in the Top 6 and full time PP. Flyers open up cap space to sign Giroux, Carter, JVR in the coming years and perhaps enough money to secure a goalie at the deadline this year or next off season.

In general (Kings specific) one would think that IF Hartnell and Gagne are packaged together along with a 5th Round Pick, the following should be coming the other way:
1. A franchises top 3-5 prospect (1 of Schenn, Hickey, Teubert, or Drewiskie, but 1 of Moller or Bernier would be hopeful)
2. A Top 6 Player (Williams, Stoll, or Handzus, but Simmonds would be nice)
3. A bottom 6 NHLer that can jump into Top 6 (Parse)
4. Fringe prospect with room to develop (Kozun)
5. 3rd-4th round draft pick

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Old
07-15-2010, 01:21 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyOnTheSpot View Post
You're silly. The dichotomy between Briere at RW and Briere at C is overwhelming.
you just used the word "dichotomy" completely wrong

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07-15-2010, 01:21 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
Yea Briere showed he needs to be on the wings after his 56 point performance. He thrives at center, look at the playoffs, look at his first season here, look at him with buffalo, he is a center, the wing is not for him.
The problem is he's not good enough defensively to be a center. He looks lost at times in the defensive zone.

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Old
07-15-2010, 01:21 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
Briere and Giroux should be on the wings
Says you.

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Old
07-15-2010, 01:24 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97FlyersKing18 View Post
The Kings get a lot IF both Hartnell and Gagne come to LA, hardly trash. They both are extrememly talented hockey players with 3-5 years of great hockey from Hartnell and 2-3 years left of solid productive Gagne. Hartnell had an off year last year and still ended up with 44 Points (30 assists) and played lights out in the Finals with Briere and Leino. When Hartnell is on, he is a dynamic hockey player that can hurt teams (perhaps his own included) in many ways. In a career year, he is 30-30 and a great year in the future he is 25-25 and adds a sense of toughness/grit to the lineup. He would be an upgrade to the Kings depth. Gagne would instantly be the best 2 way player on the the team, even with his "injury problems". 40 goal scorers with Gagne's defensive awareness don't grow on trees. Honestly, Gagne and Hartnell are worth more to the Flyers than they will be on the open market or in a trade situation, but since there is a rigid cap, rumors like these spread. Flyers will get a lot less skilled and become one of the smaller forward groups in the league, even with JVR and Giroux finding permanent spots in the Top 6 and full time PP. Flyers open up cap space to sign Giroux, Carter, JVR in the coming years and perhaps enough money to secure a goalie at the deadline this year or next off season.

In general (Kings specific) one would think that IF Hartnell and Gagne are packaged together along with a 5th Round Pick, the following should be coming the other way:
1. A franchises top 3-5 prospect (1 of Schenn, Hickey, Teubert, or Drewiskie, but 1 of Moller or Bernier would be hopeful)
2. A Top 6 Player (Williams, Stoll, or Handzus, but Simmonds would be nice)
3. A bottom 6 NHLer that can jump into Top 6 (Parse)
4. Fringe prospect with room to develop (Kozun)
5. 3rd-4th round draft pick


lol kings wouldn't give that in return

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Old
07-15-2010, 01:26 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
Briere and Giroux should be on the wings
The chances of Lavy putting one of them on wings is slim to none. It has been shown that for the past....long long time.... the Flyers like to roll with 3 scoring lines and 1 defensive, not 2 scoring, 2 defensive.

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Old
07-15-2010, 01:26 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by 97FlyersKing18 View Post
The Kings get a lot IF both Hartnell and Gagne come to LA, hardly trash. They both are extrememly talented hockey players with 3-5 years of great hockey from Hartnell and 2-3 years left of solid productive Gagne. Hartnell had an off year last year and still ended up with 44 Points (30 assists) and played lights out in the Finals with Briere and Leino. When Hartnell is on, he is a dynamic hockey player that can hurt teams (perhaps his own included) in many ways. In a career year, he is 30-30 and a great year in the future he is 25-25 and adds a sense of toughness/grit to the lineup. He would be an upgrade to the Kings depth. Gagne would instantly be the best 2 way player on the the team, even with his "injury problems". 40 goal scorers with Gagne's defensive awareness don't grow on trees. Honestly, Gagne and Hartnell are worth more to the Flyers than they will be on the open market or in a trade situation, but since there is a rigid cap, rumors like these spread. Flyers will get a lot less skilled and become one of the smaller forward groups in the league, even with JVR and Giroux finding permanent spots in the Top 6 and full time PP. Flyers open up cap space to sign Giroux, Carter, JVR in the coming years and perhaps enough money to secure a goalie at the deadline this year or next off season.

In general (Kings specific) one would think that IF Hartnell and Gagne are packaged together along with a 5th Round Pick, the following should be coming the other way:
1. A franchises top 3-5 prospect (1 of Schenn, Hickey, Teubert, or Drewiskie, but 1 of Moller or Bernier would be hopeful)
2. A Top 6 Player (Williams, Stoll, or Handzus, but Simmonds would be nice)
3. A bottom 6 NHLer that can jump into Top 6 (Parse)
4. Fringe prospect with room to develop (Kozun)
5. 3rd-4th round draft pick
You would trade all that for one year of Gagne and three years of Hartnell (at $4+ per year)? You are generous but I'm glad you aren't the Kings GM.

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Old
07-15-2010, 01:26 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by LAX attack View Post
you just used the word "dichotomy" completely wrong
You sure about that?

Dichotomy - division into two mutually exclusive, opposed, or contradictory groups: a dichotomy between thought and action. Thanks for that grammar lesson, wizard.

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07-15-2010, 01:27 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by SFKingshomer View Post
LA hasn't developed a goalie since Mario Lessard and it's too early into either goalies career to trade them.
Bernier is looking pretty good and there are always guys on the market to target if he isn't ready. Is Quick's value higher now or next year after Bernier has taken his starting spot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KopitarFAN View Post
Bernier has about 15 career starts, No way is he ready. Dean would be taking a big leap of faith if he just handed him the job.
While I admit Bernier hasn't proved much yet, he has oodles of talent. Moving Quick in a deal like this, while his value is high(remember he could fall back to earth next year too), would allow you to bulk up on the wings quite nicely.

If the worst case happens and Bernier totally craps the bed next year(I don't think this is super likely), there are always goalies on the market for a team with some cap room. Either way, Bernier is your long term starter imo and needs to start getting some games in. Besides I like Ersberg too, I think he could hold the fort for 20-30 games until another goalie could be found(Turco/Roli?) if Bernier is completely incapable

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAX attack View Post
Yeah teams like New Jersey and Vancouver who depended on a single goalie to play 70+ games have been successful in the playoffs
Ersberg? Or are you guys totally against him now? I always thought he was pretty decent

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBrown View Post
And what if Bernier isn't all that? He has shown signs of brilliance yes but for an organization weak in net for almost its entire existence, trading a goalie before they are absolutely certain they got that area covered would be crazy.
Not if you significantly improve another aspect of the team. Chicago wasn't sure they had the goalie thing figured out going into last season either. You don't need a Brodeur or RL to win the cup

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07-15-2010, 01:28 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by 97FlyersKing18 View Post
The Kings get a lot IF both Hartnell and Gagne come to LA, hardly trash. They both are extrememly talented hockey players with 3-5 years of great hockey from Hartnell and 2-3 years left of solid productive Gagne. Hartnell had an off year last year and still ended up with 44 Points (30 assists) and played lights out in the Finals with Briere and Leino. When Hartnell is on, he is a dynamic hockey player that can hurt teams (perhaps his own included) in many ways. In a career year, he is 30-30 and a great year in the future he is 25-25 and adds a sense of toughness/grit to the lineup. He would be an upgrade to the Kings depth. Gagne would instantly be the best 2 way player on the the team, even with his "injury problems". 40 goal scorers with Gagne's defensive awareness don't grow on trees. Honestly, Gagne and Hartnell are worth more to the Flyers than they will be on the open market or in a trade situation, but since there is a rigid cap, rumors like these spread. Flyers will get a lot less skilled and become one of the smaller forward groups in the league, even with JVR and Giroux finding permanent spots in the Top 6 and full time PP. Flyers open up cap space to sign Giroux, Carter, JVR in the coming years and perhaps enough money to secure a goalie at the deadline this year or next off season.

In general (Kings specific) one would think that IF Hartnell and Gagne are packaged together along with a 5th Round Pick, the following should be coming the other way:
1. A franchises top 3-5 prospect (1 of Schenn, Hickey, Teubert, or Drewiskie, but 1 of Moller or Bernier would be hopeful)
2. A Top 6 Player (Williams, Stoll, or Handzus, but Simmonds would be nice)
3. A bottom 6 NHLer that can jump into Top 6 (Parse)
4. Fringe prospect with room to develop (Kozun)
5. 3rd-4th round draft pick
Keep dreaming. LA laughs at you. Philly is trying to clear cap space...and they HAVE to clear it in order to be able to play since they are over the cap.

Zero leverage + injury prone yet very talented player with expiring contract + solid player with a bad reputation for being inconsistent and taking bad penalties on a slightly bloated contract with two years remaining will never get you the world.

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07-15-2010, 01:29 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Bernier is looking pretty good and there are always guys on the market to target if he isn't ready. Is Quick's value higher now or next year after Bernier has taken his starting spot?



While I admit Bernier hasn't proved much yet, he has oodles of talent. Moving Quick in a deal like this, while his value is high(remember he could fall back to earth next year too), would allow you to bulk up on the wings quite nicely.

If the worst case happens and Bernier totally craps the bed next year(I don't think this is super likely), there are always goalies on the market for a team with some cap room. Either way, Bernier is your long term starter imo and needs to start getting some games in. Besides I like Ersberg too, I think he could hold the fort for 20-30 games until another goalie could be found(Turco/Roli?) if Bernier is completely incapable



Ersberg? Or are you guys totally against him now? I always thought he was pretty decent



Not if you significantly improve another aspect of the team. Chicago wasn't sure they had the goalie thing figured out going into last season either. You don't need a Brodeur or RL to win the cup
coach Terry Murray doesn't trust Ersberg to play

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07-15-2010, 01:29 PM
  #98
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You sure about that?

Dichotomy - division into two mutually exclusive, opposed, or contradictory groups: a dichotomy between thought and action. Thanks for that grammar lesson, wizard.
I couldn't get better service if I had at&t.

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07-15-2010, 01:29 PM
  #99
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Says you.
dont think I am in the minority on that idea.
I would happy with Richards,Carter,Stoll,Betts down the middle
not gonna happen tho

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07-15-2010, 01:30 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alx83 View Post
Hate to break it to you, but if they're giving up that much, then that would absolutely be the case.
What do you mean by that much? Gagne and Hartnell are key parts of the Flyers but don't get carried away.

Gagne has only one more season until he's a UFA next summer. Plus, he's injury-prone. No question when he's on the ice he's a great player, but keep his contract in mind, which is also something Philly needs to get rid of. When you need to get rid of a contract, you don't exactly get as good a return as you would if you didn't have to get rid of it.

Hartnell is coming off of one of the worst regular seasons of his career and that makes his contract look bad right now.

My point is, the Kings won't be moving pieces of great value for either of these guys. Bernier shouldn't even be mentioned when talked about these two and to get Simmonds would even be a stretch, considering how important he is to the Kings.


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