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Old
07-16-2010, 03:03 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPV View Post
I think that salary situation would be the same as it is right now. They would still have to move Michael Ryder when Marco comes of LTIR. The question would be what roster would you rather have. I'd rather have the one with this proposed trade. We'd be stacked up for a legitimate cup run.

Making the assumption that Seguin can make the jump and be one of our top 3 centers. The value in the trade is in cap space. With Savard and Thomas off the books, and Kaberle and Gagne clearing at the end of the season as well, we'd gain massive amounts of cap to bring back Chara, Bergeron, and two other top line type players (maybe even those two for less).
It would be nice to move out Thomas & Savard for Gagne & Kaberle, but I'd rather not pay a 1st round pick to create cap space. Not only is that bad asset management, but it's a telling sign that new contracts aren't being planned & managed effectively.

Even if it were to happen, it doesn't leave room to sign Seguin, Wheeler and a backup goalie. Sturm's LTIR gives some relief, but beyond that someone else has to be traded and there really aren't any good options left other than dealing a needed player.

I don't see Ryder being moved, nobody wants him at that cap hit (though I pray). Dumping him to the minors seems like a non-starter given we're talking $4M at stake and the fact that the Bruins owner is the notoriously cost-minded Jeremy Jacobs.



Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyboy8920 View Post
The first is actually needed. To entice the deal for the Flyers; most of them dont even like the deal already. Imagine if the 1st was taken out.

Thomas + 1st (for taking him).
Savard (rumblings that he wants out)

IMO bruins add the best 2 guys. (you can argue about savard, but both Kaberle and Gagne will fit perfectly in Boston) They are both on there final year; which stated before. Like Chicago, they may want to put all the eggs into one basket and push for the cup this year. granted, its not like they have to blow up there team the following year.

So if you look at it. Boston is losing a contract they dont want. and a player, who may have his head in another place (savard). and gain tons of key players.

For Philly they are losing a player who is said to be on the outs; because a younger replacement was found. Hartnell is the one that will impact them. But they gain a coveted 1st, decent nhl ready young prospect. (and possibly another mid prospect) Thomas is the question mark. IF he was 2million cheaper, it would be a no brainer.
See above. While I understand your thinking, this just doesn't make sense for the Bruins.

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07-16-2010, 03:10 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LucicTrain View Post
who would you rather have Hartnell at 60 pt form for 4.2 or Thomas at Vezina form for 5? seems like a no brainer for me if i was a Flyers fan, Flyers have plenty of offense and need good goaltending.
For one season? Thomas. Over the duration of their contracts? Hartnell. It's moot choosing between the two; the Flyers need to cut salary. They're not adding salary in a deal with the Bruins.

If Thomas is so great, deal us Rask for Hartnell instead

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07-16-2010, 03:34 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by LEIFey View Post
For one season? Thomas. Over the duration of their contracts? Hartnell. It's moot choosing between the two; the Flyers need to cut salary. They're not adding salary in a deal with the Bruins.

If Thomas is so great, deal us Rask for Hartnell instead
Flyers need to cut a lot of payroll and move probably a couple of different players, but if it came down to having either Hartnell or Thomas i think they would be able to make the necessary moves to free up an extra 800k

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07-16-2010, 03:45 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LucicTrain View Post
Flyers need to cut a lot of payroll and move probably a couple of different players, but if it came down to having either Hartnell or Thomas i think they would be able to make the necessary moves to free up an extra 800k
Flyers need to move $2M. Even if they go after Turco, Gagne alone is more then enough.

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07-16-2010, 03:46 PM
  #80
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As a Bruins fan I'd hate to face Philly w/ Thomas between their pipes.. With his fire & desire to prove that he's still in Vezina form, I've got a feeling Thomas will be a major story in the NHL this season,, & lots of GM's will be kicking themselves in the arse for not acquiring him when they could.

I hope Boston keeps Thomas & Savard & somehow dumps Ryder & Sturm. You cant argue that a tandem of Rask & Thomas wont be sick.. & Savard & Horton will be exciting to watch.

On the Philly side, Richards, Hartnell, Carcillo, Pronger, Thomas..that's a whole lotta testosterone right there..

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07-16-2010, 03:48 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by NitHeel View Post
Flyers need to move $2M. Even if they go after Turco, Gagne alone is more then enough.
Turco wasn't bumped out of Dallas because of a young better goalie. He got dumped because he sucked, & they went out & paid money for a better replacement. Turco's better days are over.

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07-16-2010, 03:56 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Turco wasn't bumped out of Dallas because of a young better goalie. He got dumped because he sucked, & they went out & paid money for a better replacement. Turco's better days are over.
It seems like any goalie in there mid-thirties is considered exactly the same skill wise I'm not a huge Thomas fan, but 5mil for a good #1 with playoff experience used to be considered par for course if not a steal. People are just getting caught up in the whole "cheap goalie" phenomena. Said phenomena will come to a crashing halt in 6 or 7 months.

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07-16-2010, 04:11 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Like the Flyers posters mentioned....if they wanted to pay a goalie $5m, they would've signed Nabokov. Cheap goaltending is the trend today.
And of course he'd jump at the chance rather than retire at home as a hero for $6m.......tax free.

Maybe they did try to sign him for 5. I hear Russians can count.

This is one of the best 3 way proposals in a long time.

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07-16-2010, 04:35 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by LEIFey View Post
You realize it's easier to sign people when you have a cheaper goalie, right?
You do realize you can sign cheaper people when you have a good goalie, right?

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07-16-2010, 04:40 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LucicTrain View Post
Flyers need to cut a lot of payroll and move probably a couple of different players, but if it came down to having either Hartnell or Thomas i think they would be able to make the necessary moves to free up an extra 800k
You hit the nail on the head; the Flyers need to cut payroll. Adding Thomas just means they need to cut even more. I highly doubt the Flyers would even consider Thomas at this point. The team is just not setup to run with an expensive goalie. If Thomas was 8-10 years younger, maybe the Flyers work some magic to fit him, but at his age, it wouldn't be a wise investment.

There pretty much won't be a deal between the Flyers and the Bruins. The Flyers don't want salary back and all Bruins fans seem to want is to send Thomas to Philly. No thanks.

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Originally Posted by Turk View Post
You do realize you can sign cheaper people when you have a good goalie, right?
My post was in response to someone asking about Giroux/JVR getting new deals. Getting Thomas and trying to keep our young guys means completely remodeling the team. For better or for worse, that's a headache that should be avoided.

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Old
07-16-2010, 06:44 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Sh0otnSc0re View Post
It's not nearly enough to lose 2 top 6 forwards, plus Thomas' contact is a no-no. Especially with the brass confidant in Leighton.
The brass being confident in Leighton is why you guys will not win the cup again next year.

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07-16-2010, 07:13 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruinator View Post
The brass being confident in Leighton is why you guys will not win the cup again next year.
The brass' willingness to settle for a cheap goaltender is why the Flyers will be a competitor in the East once again and a much better team than the Boston Bruins will be even with Rask/Thomas.

I'm not trying to be rude, but I think that if you are going to throw out jabs you should at least understand a little bit about the role of goaltending in hockey.

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Old
07-16-2010, 07:28 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
The brass' willingness to settle for a cheap goaltender is why the Flyers will be a competitor in the East once again and a much better team than the Boston Bruins will be even with Rask/Thomas.

I'm not trying to be rude, but I think that if you are going to throw out jabs you should at least understand a little bit about the role of goaltending in hockey.

Do you mean it's role is minimal?

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07-16-2010, 07:43 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turk View Post
Do you mean it's role is minimal?
Compared to skaters, I'm inclined to agree with Chris. A solid defensive system with skilled defenders can make a goalie like Michael Leighton look like a world beater. I'm not convinced the same can happen in reverse; unless the goalie really IS a world beater. Thomas is good, but I wouldn't say he was that good.

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07-16-2010, 08:04 PM
  #90
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This is actually a very good deal for Toronto Obviously and i think its fair with Boston..
As for the philly fans i think it is just the fact of having a goalie that hasnt had much playoff experience that bothers them..But i would love having a guy like Thomas on my team

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07-16-2010, 08:06 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
As a Bruins fan I'd hate to face Philly w/ Thomas between their pipes.. With his fire & desire to prove that he's still in Vezina form, I've got a feeling Thomas will be a major story in the NHL this season,, & lots of GM's will be kicking themselves in the arse for not acquiring him when they could.

I hope Boston keeps Thomas & Savard & somehow dumps Ryder & Sturm. You cant argue that a tandem of Rask & Thomas wont be sick.. & Savard & Horton will be exciting to watch.

On the Philly side, Richards, Hartnell, Carcillo, Pronger, Thomas..that's a whole lotta testosterone right there..
Got me laughing with that one man

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07-16-2010, 08:10 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Playboy x View Post
This is actually a very good deal for Toronto Obviously and i think its fair with Boston..
As for the philly fans i think it is just the fact of having a goalie that hasnt had much playoff experience that bothers them..But i would love having a guy like Thomas on my team
That's not true.

The Flyers don't care if their goalie is a waiver pick-up if he gets the job done at the end of the day.

The knowledgeable Flyers' fans don't care if the goalie is a world-beater as long as he is decently talented (not Leighton/Boucher clearly) and comes cheap.

Ignorant Flyers fans cry that we haven't had a big name goalie in a decade plus, when all of our goalies, regardless of who has been in net, have performed just fine.

That "ignorant Flyers fans" comment also tends to apply to the vast majority of HFboards, who don't know anything about Flyers' goaltending but like to pretend that they do.

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07-16-2010, 08:20 PM
  #93
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That's not true.

The Flyers don't care if their goalie is a waiver pick-up if he gets the job done at the end of the day.

The knowledgeable Flyers' fans don't care if the goalie is a world-beater as long as he is decently talented (not Leighton/Boucher clearly) and comes cheap.

Ignorant Flyers fans cry that we haven't had a big name goalie in a decade plus, when all of our goalies, regardless of who has been in net, have performed just fine.

That "ignorant Flyers fans" comment also tends to apply to the vast majority of HFboards, who don't know anything about Flyers' goaltending but like to pretend that they do.
Oh sorry.
I just do not understand why the fans dont want Thomas. I watched him quite a bit! I think he is actually great. Like you said he is WAY better than Leigh or Boucher. I just want something done because these prospals are making me mad. Unless it is for cap reasonings.

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07-16-2010, 08:25 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Playboy x View Post
Oh sorry.
I just do not understand why the fans dont want Thomas. I watched him quite a bit! I think he is actually great. Like you said he is WAY better than Leigh or Boucher. I just want something done because these prospals are making me mad. Unless it is for cap reasonings.
Nobody ever said that Thomas wasn't a significant improvement to Leighton or Boucher. While, I believe Thomas is not nearly as talented as speculated because he gets a lot of help from a great core of skaters and a great system in Boston, I know he is better than both of our goalies.

The issues are his cap hit, his over 35 contract, his age, and his recent injury. None of those are appealing to Flyers' fans to the point where he is literally a non-option, his contract being the most vital reason. At $2.5m/year cheaper, he'd be an obvious acquisition, though even at that price I'd rather have Turco.

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07-16-2010, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Nobody ever said that Thomas wasn't a significant improvement to Leighton or Boucher. While, I believe Thomas is not nearly as talented as speculated because he gets a lot of help from a great core of skaters and a great system in Boston, I know he is better than both of our goalies.

The issues are his cap hit, his over 35 contract, his age, and his recent injury. None of those are appealing to Flyers' fans to the point where he is literally a non-option, his contract being the most vital reason. At $2.5m/year cheaper, he'd be an obvious acquisition, though even at that price I'd rather have Turco.
What if they replaced Thomas with Ryder? I dont know who else Boston wants to give up...

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07-16-2010, 08:49 PM
  #96
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What if they replaced Thomas with Ryder? I dont know who else Boston wants to give up...
Not a chance.

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07-16-2010, 09:05 PM
  #97
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Flyers can't really take on dead weight salary. They're not expecting fair value, but salary coming back is a nonstarter for a deal with Philly at this point. If you want Gagne, don't expect to send back an undesirable contract.

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07-16-2010, 11:28 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by LEIFey View Post
Compared to skaters, I'm inclined to agree with Chris. A solid defensive system with skilled defenders can make a goalie like Michael Leighton look like a world beater. I'm not convinced the same can happen in reverse; unless the goalie really IS a world beater. Thomas is good, but I wouldn't say he was that good.
Uh.. doesn't that mean that a better goalie would look amazing then, and wouldn't you want such a goalie? I know you guys don't want Thomas at $5 million, but if you got rid of Briere or something it could only make your team better to have a good strong mobile D corp with a goalie like Thomas. Personally, I think we trade him mid-season, for a halfway decent return, unless the unspeakable happens and Rask gets hurt.

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07-16-2010, 11:32 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Nobody ever said that Thomas wasn't a significant improvement to Leighton or Boucher. While, I believe Thomas is not nearly as talented as speculated because he gets a lot of help from a great core of skaters and a great system in Boston, I know he is better than both of our goalies.

The issues are his cap hit, his over 35 contract, his age, and his recent injury. None of those are appealing to Flyers' fans to the point where he is literally a non-option, his contract being the most vital reason. At $2.5m/year cheaper, he'd be an obvious acquisition, though even at that price I'd rather have Turco.
He certainly isn't the sexy pick. As for Turco, he is horrible. Good luck with him, you might just be better with Leighton and Boucher, or Alex freaking Auld or something.

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07-17-2010, 12:01 AM
  #100
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Uh.. doesn't that mean that a better goalie would look amazing then, and wouldn't you want such a goalie?
In theory, yes, but in reality it doesn't work that way. There are diminishing returns on your investment. Basically, let's say Leighton with a Stanley Cup competitor team gets a 2.25 GAA and a 0.920 SV%. You get Vokoun in Philly, who can obviously do that with a bad team in Florida, and he makes it better. However, the end result does not necessarily match the difference in talent. There's only so many extra goals let up by a defense taking pressure off a goalie that can be stopped with extra talent at the goaltending position. So Vokoun won't get a 1.80 GAA with a 0.950 SV%; he'll likely get something like a 2.05 GAA and a 0.930 SV%. Granted, over the course of a season, that's a gigantic difference, but per game it's not so much. That's what matters.

So if diminishing returns says you can get 2.10 GAA and a 0.925 SV% by signing Turco cheap for maybe 0.50m/year more than Leighton, who would get a 2.25 GAA and a 0.920 SV%, why would you spend roughly $3.5m/year more than that to get Vokoun for a boost by -0.05 GAA and a +0.10 SV%?

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Originally Posted by Serpico4ever View Post
I know you guys don't want Thomas at $5 million, but if you got rid of Briere or something it could only make your team better to have a good strong mobile D corp with a goalie like Thomas. Personally, I think we trade him mid-season, for a halfway decent return, unless the unspeakable happens and Rask gets hurt.
Briere is a STUD in the playoffs. I think he's 2nd in playoff scoring among forwards since the lockout.

I'd much rather have Briere in the postseason than Thomas, so in the end, I'd want Boston to add something nice to make it worth my while.

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