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MLD 2010 Mickey Ion 1st round: #1 Toronto Marlies vs. #8 Cornwall Royals

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Old
07-15-2010, 08:03 PM
  #1
VanIslander
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MLD 2010 Mickey Ion 1st round: #1 Toronto Marlies vs. #8 Cornwall Royals

Mickey Ion Quarterfinal Round


Toronto Marlies

coach Bun Cook

Al MacAdam (A) - Marc Savard - Stephane Richer
Red Hamill - Doc Romnes - Art Gagne
Jan Erixon - Brian Rolston - Cecil Blachford (C)
Carl Liscombe - Craig Conroy - Bobby Gould
Jack McIntyre, Bill Flett

Hy Buller - John Van Boxmeer
Gord Fraser - Mario Marois (A)
Warren Godfrey - Dale Tallon
Adrian Aucoin

Evgeni Nabokov
Earl Robertson


vs.


Cornwall Royals

coach Boris Kulagin

Sergei Kapustin - Viktor Zhluktov - Alexsei Morozov
Yevgeny Zimin - Viktor Shuvalov - Yuri Pantyukhov
Valentin Kuzin - Alexander Uvarov (C) - Yuri Krylov
Alexander Bodunov - Vyacheslav Anisin - Yuri Lebedev
Sergei Samsonov, Alexander Pashin

Yuri Fedorov - Vasili Pervukhin (A)
Dmitri Ukolov (A) - Alex Vinogradov
Alfred Kuchevsky - Genrikh Sidorenkov
Val Hoffinger

Nikolai Puchkov
Sergei Mylnikov



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07-15-2010, 09:26 PM
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Great..how am I supposed to make arguements against a team where I don't know most of the players

Good luck- looking forward to learning more about your team as we face it.

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07-15-2010, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Great..how am I supposed to make arguements against a team where I don't know most of the players
Read my extensive assassination, with links. That covers 15 of the 22.

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07-15-2010, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Read my extensive assassination, with links. That covers 15 of the 22.
Hmm, I missed that one somehow. Thanks.

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07-16-2010, 09:29 AM
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Here are some bios for easy reference

Bios:
Marc Savard - http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...3&postcount=48
Stephane Richer - http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...3&postcount=49
Red Hamill - http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...0&postcount=50
Hy Buller - http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...9&postcount=60
Doc Romnes - http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...6&postcount=64
Art Gagne - http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...8&postcount=66
Al MacAdam - http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...0&postcount=68
Evgeni Nabokov - http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...9&postcount=69
Cecil Blachford - http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...1&postcount=70
Brian Rolston - http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...2&postcount=71
Jan Erixon - http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...4&postcount=72
John van Boxmeer - http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...6&postcount=74
Gord Fraser - http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...3&postcount=82
Mario Marois - http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...4&postcount=83
Bun Cook - http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...9&postcount=75
Warren Godfrey - http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...9&postcount=73
Carl Liscombe - http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...1&postcount=80
Craig Conroy - http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...0&postcount=84

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07-16-2010, 01:06 PM
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I suppose I'll start things off by just going over some of the questions people may have about our line-up.

Marc Savard does have a small play-off resume, but it definately isn't a bad one.

2008:
Led Boston in points and assists
6th in the league for play-off assists per game


2009:
Led Boston in points and goals
7th in the league for play-off goals per game
10th in the league for play-off assists per game
5th in the league for play-off points per game


2010:
Came back from a long injury to score a very important game-winning goal.

That is 2 good play-off years and one that was negatively impacted by injury. You may call that a small resume, but it isn't a weak one. He was his team's best play-off performer as well as a solid offesive producer on a per-game basis.

Since that is such a small sample size, I'll also look as some of his other play-off performances.....


1998:
Led Hartford Wolfpack(AHL) in play-off points and assists
3rd in AHL play-off points and 2nd in points per game
2nd in AHL play-off assists and 1st in assists per game


1999:
Led Hartford Wolpack in play-off points and assists
1st in AHL play-off points per game
1st in AHL play-off assists per game


1997:
Led Oshawa Generals in play-off points and assists
1st in OHL play-off points and assists
1st in Memorial Cup assists.... despite the fact that Oshawa scored by far the fewest goals in the tournament. He assists on 6 of the team's 7 goals


Despite a short NHL play-off resume, I think it's definately fair to say that Savard is not going to be a problem for us now that we are in the play-offs.


Last edited by Dreakmur: 07-16-2010 at 01:51 PM.
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07-16-2010, 01:47 PM
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Unfortunately, there's no way to really defend Red Hamill's play-off resume That is why we moved him down to the second line, where he will play with one of the best play-off performers of the late 1930s in Doc Romnes. Hopefully, Hamill and Romnes will pretty much even out the overall effectiveness of the line.

As I have said before, a player's performance in these ATD play-offs should based on his whole career mixed with is play-off performance. Since Hamill was one of the very elite goal-scorers during the regular season and a poor play-off performer, he will be somewhere in the middle here. Keep in mind though, that only 5% of Hamill's career was in the play-offs, so how much does that impact him here?

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07-16-2010, 03:54 PM
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How the Cornwall Royals could win the series in 4 or 5 games. It's the playoffs, where upsets happen when matchups favour, and this could be such a case. The Royals could focus on its surefire strengths and shorten its bench.

Move power-ram forward Zhluktov to the wing and bring Bobrov's pivot up to the first line (click on the underlined names for links to bios):

Sergei Kapustin - Viktor Shuvalov - Viktor Zhluktov

Move the effective '72 Summit Series Kid Line up to 2nd line minutes:

Alexander Bodunov - Vyacheslav Anisin - Yuri Lebedev

Dress Sammy and have him play his responsible defensive game alongside leader and checking renowned pivot and double-shifted Lebedev:

Sergei Samsonov - Alexander Uvarov (C) - Yuri Lebedev

That's three solid lines. Sub in Zimin from time to time, as he scored a couple of goals in the Summit Series against the NHL's best so ought to be able to here. Morozov is benched and question mark forwards Pantyukhov, Kuzin, Krylov and extra Pashin are given limited minutes in a minor role.

The blueline would rely heavily upon the Big Three, starting with the draft's all-star defenseman Vasili on the top pairing:

Yuri Fedorov - Vasili Pervukhin (A)

The real-life IIHF all-star pairing mates are moved up to 2nd duo minutes:

Alfred Kuchevsky - Genrikh Sidorenkov

Limited minutes for question mark rearguards: Ukolov, Vinogradov and extra Hoffinger.

Keep the goaltending situation exactly as it is, fine. An 8-time Soviet league all-star, IIHF all-star:

Nikolai Puchkov
Sergei Mylnikov

The coach took two Soviet league teams to play games against NHL clubs in 1975/76 and had a winning record. He coached the Soviets over the WHA's best in the '74 Summit Series, he also led the Soviets to mutiple world championships in the mid-70s against a then very challenging Czech squad and he coached to an Olympic gold win. He's ready for THIS challenge:

coach Boris Kulagin

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07-16-2010, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post

As I have said before, a player's performance in these ATD play-offs should based on his whole career mixed with is play-off performance. Since Hamill was one of the very elite goal-scorers during the regular season and a poor play-off performer, he will be somewhere in the middle here. Keep in mind though, that only 5% of Hamill's career was in the play-offs, so how much does that impact him here?
I agree with this. I see the larger sample size of the regular season being a better gauge of a player's talent, but the playoffs show how that player will handle pressure... or handle the same role that he played on his real team.

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07-16-2010, 07:58 PM
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Dreakmur
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How the Cornwall Royals could win the series in 4 or 5 games. It's the playoffs, where upsets happen when matchups favour, and this could be such a case. The Royals could focus on its surefire strengths and shorten its bench.
Just curious as to what gives Cornwall a favourable match-up?

As for the short bench, I would assume more teams would shorten the bench as needed, and that would be a game-by-game decision of the coach. Also, teams running an abnormally short bench run the risk of burning out. Against a well-balanced team like ours - one that is capable of rolling the lines or shortening the shifts as needed - it's almost guarenteed that we will take over late in games and late in the series.

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07-16-2010, 08:42 PM
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I'll get to line comparisons, keeping in mind that (as all should), VanIslander's lineup changes are merely suggestions, and in no way official until the GM of the team says they are.

Al Macadam-Marc Savard-Stephane Richer vs Sergei Kapustin - Viktor Zhluktov - Alexsei Morozov

I think the best comparison on this one would be best to worst players. We probably see some mismatches in position to position comparison. Plus, this comparison is suitable for any head to head time these lines get:

Al Macadam vs Alexsei Morozov
A severe weak link to the top line, in my mind. What has Morozov done to warrant top line duty?

Morozov is only one on their team I'm aware of with large NHL experience, making it an easier comparison. He was never top 20 in anything of significance that I am aware of. He has a rather poor 9 points in 39 NHL playoff games. He doesn't provide any intangibles that I am aware of (correct me if I'm wrong). His NHL resume probably isn't even Double-A draft worthy.

He has a decent 6 points in 10 olympic games, but I don't think they really counteract that NHL playoff record. He has had some great, some good, some decent, some bad world championships- short tournaments that aren't best on best scenarios.

That leaves his accomplishments in the Russian leagues, which once the 1980s or so hit, we don't tend to put stock in. He has some impressive numbers in the russian leagues, but who is he beating out? The level of these leagues doesn't come close to the NHL, as far as I know. And I am unaware of resources that put his raw statistics into context.

MacAdam is much easier to pin. Though he isn't a great scorer, he does have these statistics:

Points – 12th(1980)
Goals – 14th(1980)

Play-off Points – 10th(1981), 13th(1980)
Play-off Goals – 7th(1981)

To his name, in known best on best scenarios- more than Morozov ever did in the NHL. He was also often amongst the best players on his team, usually in the top-3 point producers amongst them.

He also has what I am fairly sure is a significant intangible edge on Morozov, with highly noted two-way ability. Quotes:

Quote:
“"Give me a team of Alan MacAdams," observed one NHL coach, "and I'll give you a championship." Such was the ultimate tribute paid to Kings County's most famous hockey player, a man who has been called the best two-way right-winger in the recent history of Canada's national game.” -PEI Sports Hall of Fame
Quote:
“Affectionately known by teammates as "Big Al" or "Mac," he was an extremely talented skater and two-way player who could always be counted upon to show up to every game
Quote:
-Joe Pelletier
Given Macadam's evidently quite better intangibles, based upon defense, and the better NHL resume, I rather think he has an edge here. A great character guy I'd much rather have on my team than Morozov.

Marc Savard vs Viktor Zhluktov
Probably the two stars of their respective lines.

Zhluktov has an intangible edge on savard, given his reputation as a power forward, and seemingly defensively consience (though not necessarily particularly good defensively- Kings of the Ice said he was compelled to concentrate on defense as a centre, though I would like to see the context better from papershoe's quote- it kind of sounded like he just started to work on his defensive game more).

But I am fairly confident Savard's offensive talent makes up for it. As Dreak has shown, Savard's playoff resume really isn't bad (just limited), and he's well supported by playoff producers on his wings. His regular season resume is outstanding, with a 3, 3, 3, 6 in assists and 3 top 10's in points.

Neither VanIslander's bio or paperhsoes provide any Russian league regular season numbers, however. While undoubtedly very superb in the 1976 Canada cup, and some clutch goals/assists, neither has shown any numbers or statisitcs or placements from other tournaments, just career ones from paper shoes (To VanIslander- the onus should be on papershoes to provide these for the matchup), which suggest to me a lack of them.

Zhluktov seems like a pretty good intangible player, but quotes on it seem rather limited, and I don't think his offense is close enough to Savard's, with just one evident outstanding best on best tournament wheras Savard has much more in great offensive seasons to show, to give him the edge. Edge Savard, I think.

Sergei Kasputin vs Stephane Richer
I strugglle to see Kasputin's greatness here- mainly for context reasons. Unlike with Zhluktov's bio, VanIslander's bio provies many tournament scoring statisics for Kasputin (though again, nothing for his Russian league play...).

But none of these tournament statistics are put into context- they are raw sttiastics. Where did he place amongst the scoring leaders? And were most of these best on best? Kasputin did participate in two Canada cups, where he did good (though seemingly not fantastic like linemate Zhluktov- 10 points in 11 Canada cup games), but how much else did he play in best on best?

Richer is much more easy to place- an impressive 6th, 7th,and 14th in NHL goals, as well as a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in NHL even strength goals- all in known best on best conditions.

Richer was also a very known clutch producer (like MacAdam on the opposite wing, who earned the reputation of being "Mr.Clutch"), with a high amount of game winning goals in the regular season and playoffs (for whatever they are worth- how I wish the statistic could have better context). His playoff resume is also superb, 2nd in playoff assists and points in 1995, a 2 time stanley cup champion, and solid longevity- From 1986 to 1995, Richer was 9th in play-off goals and 13th in points. Again, Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Anderson, Tikkanen, Lemieux, and Gilmour are among the leaders.

Until I see context on Kasputin's numbers, I rather think Richer is the better offensive producer. They seem fairly close in intangibles- Kasputin has a quote on him loving physicality, but Richer was called "a conscientous defensive player and refused to be intimidated physically" by Joe Pelletier. I think the edge belongs to Richer overall, as well as to our line.

I also question how our opponents to line is built. Ours is fairly common- two more goalscoring types who are the wingers for a superb and rather bias playmaking centre. However, far as I can tell, both Morozov and Kasputin are more bias towards goalscoring, but Zhluktov doesn't seem bias towards playmaking. Who is the playmaker of the line, exactly?

Matchups will be addressed later, and some intangibles, as I closely examine the roster and see what exactly the Royal's defensive abilities are.


Last edited by Leafs Forever: 07-16-2010 at 09:56 PM.
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07-16-2010, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Sergei Kasputin vs Stephane Richer
I strugglle to see Kasputin's greatness here- mainly for context reasons. Unlike with Zhluktov's bio, VanIslander's bio provies many tournament scoring statisics for Kasputin (though again, nothing for his Russian league play...).

But none of these tournament statistics are put into context- they are raw sttiastics. Where did he place amongst the scoring leaders? And were most of these best on best? Kasputin did participate in two Canada cups, where he did good (though seemingly not fantastic like linemate Zhluktov- 10 points in 11 Canada cup games), but how much else did he play in best on best?

Richer is much more easy to place- an impressive 6th, 7th,and 14th in NHL goals, as well as a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in NHL even strength goals- all in known best on best conditions.

Richer was also a very known clutch producer (like MacAdam on the opposite wing, who earned the reputation of being "Mr.Clutch"), with a high amount of game winning goals in the regular season and playoffs (for whatever they are worth- how I wish the statistic could have better context). His playoff resume is also superb, 2nd in playoff assists and points in 1995, a 2 time stanley cup champion, and solid longevity- From 1986 to 1995, Richer was 9th in play-off goals and 13th in points. Again, Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Anderson, Tikkanen, Lemieux, and Gilmour are among the leaders.

Until I see context on Kasputin's numbers, I rather think Richer is the better offensive producer. They seem fairly close in intangibles- Kasputin has a quote on him loving physicality, but Richer was called "a conscientous defensive player and refused to be intimidated physically" by Joe Pelletier. I think the edge belongs to Richer overall, as well as to our line.

I also question how our opponents to line is built. Ours is fairly common- two more goalscoring types who are the wingers for a superb and rather bias playmaking centre. However, far as I can tell, both Morozov and Kasputin are more bias towards goalscoring, but Zhluktov doesn't seem bias towards playmaking. Who is the playmaker of the line, exactly?

Matchups will be addressed later, and some intangibles, as I closely examine the roster and see what exactly the Royal's defensive abilities are.
Here are Kapustin's finishes in World Championships....

1974 - 1st in goals, 6th in points, but 4 other Russians scored more points.

1975 - 4th in goals, but at least 8 other Russians scored more points.

1977 - 2nd in goals, 3rd in points, and 2 other Russians scored more.

1978 - 6th in goals, 8th in points, All-Star selection, and 3 other Russians scored more.

1979 - 5th in goals, but 7 other Russians scored more.

1981 - All-Star selection, but outside the top-10 in scoring and at least 5 other Russians scored more.

1982 - 4th in poitns, and 2 other Russians scored more.

1983 - at least 5 other Russians scored more.

As for the competition, you are right that he really didn't face the top tier of players in the world. Asside from the Czechs, there was no other major competition on the international stage. The fact that Kapustin was never his own team's leading scorer (never better than 3rd) is a little bit concerning as well.

While I do believe his offensive totals are inflated by playing in such a powerful team, and against a lot of lesser competition, there are some impressive numbers there. I'd say he's one of the better offensive wingers in this draft. He and Richer are likely fairly close in that area. Richer's well-rounded game, in my view make him a slightly better player, but Kapustin is a very good offensive talent.


Last edited by Dreakmur: 07-16-2010 at 11:51 PM.
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07-16-2010, 11:43 PM
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Well thanks for giving us context (you're supposed to do that after our series! )

The 1st and 2nd in goals are good, 3rd and 4th in points good, but I don't know about putting much stock in the rest in non best-on-best tournaments. (and said finishes are diminished by that as well- unless one of those was a best on best that I'm not aware of).

I don't think Richer does have a large edge on Kasputin either, but regardless, I think an edge at centre, as well as Macadam>Morozov, give us a first line edge.

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07-17-2010, 12:08 AM
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Well thanks for giving us context (you're supposed to do that after our series! )
Some people don't like my style or arguing, so I'm trying to change it up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
The 1st and 2nd in goals are good, 3rd and 4th in points good, but I don't know about putting much stock in the rest in non best-on-best tournaments. (and said finishes are diminished by that as well- unless one of those was a best on best that I'm not aware of).
Through the 70s, the World Championships were really just a two team race. The Soviets and Czechs were just so much stronger than anybody else... even the Swedes, who were clearly the next team, weren't really close to the Soviets/Czechs.

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I don't think Richer does have a large edge on Kasputin either, but regardless, I think an edge at centre, as well as Macadam>Morozov, give us a first line edge.
Agreed.

I feel pretty confident that Savard is the best offensive player in the series, so that's a good start. He's not an intangible guy, but that's why we flanked him with MacAdam and Richer.

Morozov is not even close to a 1st liner in this draft. Even when he was on his game, which wasn't very often, he wasn't a real impact player in the NHL. He has been better since leaving, but I just can't get over how mediocre he was in the best league in the world.

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07-17-2010, 03:25 AM
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1979 - 5th in goals, but 7 other Russians scored more.
.
What does that even mean? Wouldn't he have to be at least 8th, then?

Also, how did you get these results? There's only one way that I know of - check each country's stats in each tournament that he played in using SIHR's database.

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He's not an intangible guy, but that's why we flanked him with MacAdam and Richer.
What?

Richer's not a guy you put next to a Savard to make up for his weaknesses.

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07-17-2010, 10:42 AM
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What does that even mean? Wouldn't he have to be at least 8th, then?

Also, how did you get these results? There's only one way that I know of - check each country's stats in each tournament that he played in using SIHR's database.
He was 4th in goals, but he was 9th in points on his own team.

I got the results from passionhockey archives.


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What?

Richer's not a guy you put next to a Savard to make up for his weaknesses.
Depends what weaknesses you want to make up for.

Savard is a poor goalscorer, so Richer makes up for that weakness.
Savard is below average devensively, so Richer makes up for that too.

MacAdam takes care of the rest. Every needed aspect is taken care of on this line, right?

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07-17-2010, 10:46 AM
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What does that even mean? Wouldn't he have to be at least 8th, then?
I think that may mean outscoring in points.


Quote:
What?

Richer's not a guy you put next to a Savard to make up for his weaknesses.
Richer may not be a good character guy, but quotes at least indicate him as pretty solid defensively and in the toughness area.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

On another note, upon closer inspection of VI's bio, I don't think we should be considering Zhluktov tough, a power forward, or even a "battering ram forward", at all. I didn't notice, but VI was actually taking the whole "battering-ram forward" thing from a post on HF- and not a good one. Here's the real quote, in it's entirety, from the poster:

Quote:
AFAIK, there are no canonical definition of power forwad, neither Canadian nor Russian. But, in Russian hockey science I found term, which poorly can be translated as battering-ram forward. It's a forward, who wins position against opposing player using physical contact on speed.

Examples are: Zhluktov, Krutov, Kamensky, Ovechkin.
Not only does the poster admit it's a poor translation, but he gives no source material. He also comes right out and says there is no definition of power forward in Russian- and it doesn't seem like it's the same thing as battering-ram forward either. (a power forward I invision hits as well, not just gets position). This poster, "Inner Gear", doesn't seem like a reputable historian around here either. Are we going to start using what everyone says about a player in the HOH section that lacks clear source material as credible information?


Last edited by Leafs Forever: 07-17-2010 at 10:51 AM.
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07-17-2010, 10:59 AM
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a power forward I invision hits as well, not just gets position
My own definition of a power forward is a guy who can use speed, skill, or strength to beat an opponent.

Obviously, guys like Bill Guerin and Owen Nolan would fit in that group, but guys like Marian Hossa and Mats Sundin would as well.

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07-17-2010, 11:53 AM
  #19
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
I think that may mean outscoring in points.




Richer may not be a good character guy, but quotes at least indicate him as pretty solid defensively and in the toughness area.
Richer doesn't add anything in the "toughness area" IMO. He was heavily criticized for much of his career for not using his size. He wasn't intimidated physically as the quotes indicate, but I don't think that makes him tough. It just means he doesn't need a bodyguard.


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07-17-2010, 02:52 PM
  #20
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
He was 4th in goals, but he was 9th in points on his own team.

I got the results from passionhockey archives.
Care to direct me there so I can take a look at this database? Maybe it is easier to use than SIHR.... or maybe it's incomplete.

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Depends what weaknesses you want to make up for.

Savard is a poor goalscorer, so Richer makes up for that weakness.
Savard is below average devensively, so Richer makes up for that too.

MacAdam takes care of the rest. Every needed aspect is taken care of on this line, right?
I realize MacAdam takes care of a lot of intangibles. But when you start to sell Richer as anything more than average (at his best, and in an NHL sense, not an all-time sense) defensively the stink meter starts to go crazy.

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07-17-2010, 02:55 PM
  #21
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Richer may not be a good character guy, but quotes at least indicate him as pretty solid defensively and in the toughness area.
Aside from Pelletier's bio (remember spinner's awesome quote that it should be the seasoning and not the main course?) I have never seen any indication Richer was a defensively-oriented forward.

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On another note, upon closer inspection of VI's bio, I don't think we should be considering Zhluktov tough, a power forward, or even a "battering ram forward", at all. I didn't notice, but VI was actually taking the whole "battering-ram forward" thing from a post on HF- and not a good one. Here's the real quote, in it's entirety, from the poster:



Not only does the poster admit it's a poor translation, but he gives no source material. He also comes right out and says there is no definition of power forward in Russian- and it doesn't seem like it's the same thing as battering-ram forward either. (a power forward I invision hits as well, not just gets position). This poster, "Inner Gear", doesn't seem like a reputable historian around here either. Are we going to start using what everyone says about a player in the HOH section that lacks clear source material as credible information?
No.... God, no. He even includes Kamensky in that list so his definition of a power forward is not very strict, at all.

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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
My own definition of a power forward is a guy who can use speed, skill, or strength to beat an opponent.

Obviously, guys like Bill Guerin and Owen Nolan would fit in that group, but guys like Marian Hossa and Mats Sundin would as well.
Doesn't every star forward who beats opponents use one of those attributes to beat them? It's a very broad definition. Alexei Yashin used skill to beat his opponents, so would he be a power forward?

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07-17-2010, 03:34 PM
  #22
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Aside from Pelletier's bio (remember spinner's awesome quote that it should be the seasoning and not the main course?) I have never seen any indication Richer was a defensively-oriented forward.
I think Richer is an example of a forward who became much more defensively responsible under Jacques Lemaire in NJ. He seems to have a rep as a guy who is an offense-only lazy player around here (or at least did when I drafted him in MLD11...) So I assume that this is the case when he played in the higher-profile market of Montreal.

In NJ, he was usually on the same line as Claude Lemieux and Bobby Carpenter/Neil Broten - the line used to go head to head against the best line of the opposition. He was never as good defensively as Claude, but he was certainly good enough that Jacques Lemaire trusted him with big minutes in every situation.

(Though towards the end of the failed 95-96 season, Richer is one of the players who complained that Lemaire was holding him back offensively).

What does it mean for the MLD? I guess it makes him a "responsible" player in his own end, but nothing special.

Quote:

No.... God, no. He even includes Kamensky in that list so his definition of a power forward is not very strict, at all.

Heh, exactly. I was thinking "Kamensky a power forward? Did I miss something when he was younger?"


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07-17-2010, 04:35 PM
  #23
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Care to direct me there so I can take a look at this database? Maybe it is easier to use than SIHR.... or maybe it's incomplete.
I got the website from you in the first place

http://www.passionhockey.com/Archives.html

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I realize MacAdam takes care of a lot of intangibles. But when you start to sell Richer as anything more than average (at his best, and in an NHL sense, not an all-time sense) defensively the stink meter starts to go crazy.
I wasn't trying to Richer as anything other than a scorer who was solid defensively.

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07-17-2010, 04:38 PM
  #24
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Doesn't every star forward who beats opponents use one of those attributes to beat them? It's a very broad definition. Alexei Yashin used skill to beat his opponents, so would he be a power forward?
What I mean is the player must be able to beat you with all 3 of those aspects.

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07-17-2010, 08:29 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I was thinking "Kamensky a power forward? Did I miss something when he was younger?"
Before and after the 30 year old Kamensky won the cup with Colorado he did use his 6'2 190 lbs strong frame to go through traffic. He excelled at carrying the puck across the opposing blueline through defenders during the so-called Dead Puck Era. He and Forsberg did it as well as anyone. No dump and chase for them.

Here is Kamensky taking no more crap from Ulf Samuelsson: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19Jw2IsW_yM

Coach Don Cherry and his "Euros are soft" crap never applied to Kamensky as it didn't to so many ex-Soviets. Valeri did not seek out a HIT, did not throw his body at guys along the boards. He was not a CHECKER. But he was offensively indeed a power forward in that he carried the puck through traffic, used his size and strength to help move the puck and himself into and around the offensive zone. He is underrated in this regard.

Zhluktov could move like a buzzsaw through the Marlies defense. Don't expect Savard to handle the matchup well.



Last edited by VanIslander: 07-17-2010 at 08:36 PM.
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