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MLD 2010 Mickey Ion 1st round: #3 Regina Capitals vs. #6 Philadelphia Blazers

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Old
07-15-2010, 09:18 PM
  #1
VanIslander
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MLD 2010 Mickey Ion 1st round: #3 Regina Capitals vs. #6 Philadelphia Blazers

Mickey Ion Quarterfinal Round


Regina Capitals

coach Viktor Tikhonov

Chris Drury (A) - Herb Jordan - Leo Labine
Slava Kozlov - Cal Gardner - Wally Hergesheimer
Jaroslav Jirik - Ted Hampson (A) - Bob MacMillan
Andre Boudrias - Jason Arnott - Grant Warwick
Frank Rankin, George Richardson

Robyn Regehr - Wade Redden
Al Arbour (C) - Bryan McCabe
Larry Hillman - Hugh Bolton
Lou Fontinato

Don Edwards
Billy Nicholson


vs.


Philadelphia Blazers

coach Jimmy Skinner

Fred Scanlan (A) - Andre Lacroix - Paul MacLean (A)
Gerard Gallant - Cliff Ronning - Ladislav Trojak
Don Grosso - Cully Dahlstrom - Don Lever (C)
Tony Granato - Laurie Boschman - Bill Fairbairn
P.J. Axelsson, Christian Bordeleau

Gilles Marotte - Gordie Roberts
Mike Milbury - Dave Manson
Drew Doughty - Bob Rouse
Al Hamilton

Mike Karakas
Marty Turco

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07-16-2010, 12:08 AM
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BillyShoe1721
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Regina is going DOWN!!! In reality, good luck seventies, I'm sure this will be a well fought battle.

Please switch Drew Doughty out for Al Hamilton in my lineup. Here is my lineup including bios for reference:

Fred Scanlan-Andre Lacroix-Paul MacLean
Gerard Gallant-Cliff Ronning-Ladislav Trojak
Don Grosso-Cully Dahlstrom-Don Lever
Tony Granato-Laurie Boschman-Bill Fairbairn
PJ Axelsson, Christian Bordeleau

Gilles Marotte-Gordie Roberts
Mike Milbury-Dave Manson
Al Hamilton-Bob Rouse
Drew Doughty

Mike Karakas
Marty Turco

1. (#11 overall) G Mike Karakas
2. (#22 overall) D Gilles Marotte
3. (#43 overall) C Andre Lacroix
4. (#54 overall) LW Gerard Gallant
5. (#75 overall) D Mike Milbury
6. (#86 overall) RW Paul MacLean
7. (#107 overall) D Dave Manson
8. (#118 overall) F Don Lever
9. (#139 overall) LW Fred Scanlan
10. (#150 overall) D Gordie Roberts
11. (#171 overall) RW Ladislav Trojak
12. (#182 overall) D Drew Doughty
13. (#203 overall) C/LW Don Grosso
14. (#214 overall) C Cliff Ronning
15. (#245 overall) C Cully Dahlstrom
16. (#246 overall) C/LW Laurie Boschman
17. (#267 overall) G Marty Turco
18. (#268 overall) RW Bill Fairbairn
19. (#309 overall) LW/RW Tony Granato
20. (#310 overall) D Bob Rouse
21. (#331 overall) LW P.J. Axelsson
22. (#332 overall) coach Jimmy Skinner
23. (#373 overall) D Al Hamilton
24. (#374 overall) C Christian Bordeleau

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07-16-2010, 12:26 AM
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This one is closer than your stereotypical 3 vs 6 match. I like Regina but I had Philadelphia higher than a 6 seed

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07-16-2010, 12:48 AM
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I think my biggest advantage is going to be my top 4. Marotte is the best defenseman in this series. They all provide a physical element, 3 are over 6', Marotte was a known hitter, and Regina has relatively small forwards.

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07-16-2010, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
I think my biggest advantage is going to be my top 4. Marotte is the best defenseman in this series. They all provide a physical element, 3 are over 6', Marotte was a known hitter, and Regina has relatively small forwards.
You just know seventies is likely to contest that one- and I wouldn't fault him for it.

And I'd like to see more evidence for small Regina forwards, era's factored in.

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07-16-2010, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Regina is going DOWN!!! In reality, good luck seventies, I'm sure this will be a well fought battle.
Good luck as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This one is closer than your stereotypical 3 vs 6 match. I like Regina but I had Philadelphia higher than a 6 seed
Yeah, well I had Regina a lot higher than #3 too, so that balances out

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Old
07-16-2010, 05:58 AM
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Let's talk about Marotte being "the best defenseman in the series". The only surface evidence I see so far, is that he made the MLD all-star team as the 7th D-man. But that doesn't mean it's correct.

Did he ever receive support for the Norris Trophy or all-star team? Yes. Marotte was 11th in voting in 1966, and 15th two seasons later. That's great, but it's not like it's unprecedented in this series:

Wade Redden: 5th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th.
Robyn Regehr: 14th.
Al Arbour: 5th, 5th.
Hugh Bolton: 5th, 9th.
Bryan McCabe: 4th, 9th, 14th.
Larry Hillman: 11th, 12th, 14th.
Lou Fontinato: 7th, 9th.

It seems that six of Regina's top-seven defensemen earned more consideration as all-stars or Norris candidates than Marotte ever did. Regehr is the lone exception. Does Marotte distinguish himself in this category from any of Regina's seven defensemen? No.

Did he ever get to represent his country in any competitions? No. He was behind some big names for the tournaments that were around when he played, but he never played for Canada. Marotte was 27 when the Summit Series was held, and he was not one of Canada's 12 defensemen in camp. Robyn Regehr, the one defenseman who lagged in Norris/All-Star consideration, has represented Canada twice in best-on-best tournaments. Ditto Wade Redden. McCabe did it once. Hillman and Arbour were ancient when '72 came around. And when Bolton played, there was no international competition NHLers could participate in. Does Marotte distinguish himself in this category from any of Regina's seven defensemen? No.

Was he known as the "best in the league" at something, or one of the best? We have a number of polls of NHL coaches from 1971 to 1984 at our disposal. See here: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=680440
In particular, the 1971, 1974, and 1976 polls can be of use to us since they were held during Marotte's career. I searched all three threads and Marotte's name does not come up once. You would think the "best defenseman in the series" would get some mention as the "best bodychecker", "best defensive defenseman", "most underrated player", or something like that.
I also have a 1974 book called "The World Almanac Guide To Pro Hockey" and they conducted a poll of their NHL correspondents from each city. Anywhere from 9 to 15 players are named in the categories "most underrated", "hardest hitter", "hardest worker", "best fighter", "best penalty killer", "team leader", "best defensive defenseman", "smartest player", as well as others, but I only mentioned the ones Marotte had a chance at winning. Marotte made 11th on the "Hardest Hitter" list... that's it. Hey, at least he didn't make the "most overrated" list.
On the other hand, these polls identified Al Arbour, in the twilight of his career, as tied for the league's best defensive defenseman. And the guy's not even my #1 defenseman, like Marotte is - He's my #3! Does Marotte distinguish himself in this category from any of Regina's seven defensemen? No.

Was he at least the #1 defenseman on his own NHL team? Ice time can be approximated using GF/GA figures dating back to 1968. This misses only the first two years of Marotte's career. Picking up from 1968, here is where he ranks among defensemen on his team in overall ice time in the next ten seasons: 3, 2, 6, 1, 1, 1, 4, 2, 2, 2. (that's an average of 2.4 per season). That is very solid for an MLD defenseman. But not unprecedented. Wade Redden and Bryan McCabe are workhorses, with Redden being a top-2 defenseman 9 straight seasons, 4 times #1 on a top-4 team in the conference, and McCabe having 11 seasons so far as his team's #1 or #2 minute muncher. Regehr is not far behind Marotte either, averaging a ranking of 2.7 in his ten years. Arbour was 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th in his four post-expansion seasons despite being 35+. Hillman was a #1 for Buffalo at age 35; that's three years older than Marotte was when he retired after one WHA season! Does Marotte distinguish himself in this category from any of Regina's seven defensemen? No. His record in this category is only slightly better than those of Regehr and Hillman.

Does any special stat show him to have some "hidden value"? I don't personally think so. Adjusted +/- is as special as it gets, and it lists Marotte as a career -11 which is not bad at all when he was playing against the opposition's best; you'll see figures like that for guys like Regehr and Normand Rochefort, too. But it's not distinguished like the career figures of Bryan McCabe (+101) and Wade Redden (+143). Does Marotte distinguish himself in this category from any of Regina's seven defensemen? No.

Did Marotte enjoy so much team success that our opinion of him as an individual player should be elevated? In other words, is he one of those guys who just seemed to win everywhere, and make every team better, like, say, Al Arbour or Larry Hillman? Considering he appeared in 29 playoff games in 10 NHL seasons, the answer is a resounding "no" to me. It is not his fault that his teams were mediocre, but he didn't seem to make the difference for them either, and when other things about players appear to be equal, one thing we use to evaluate them as a tiebreaker is team success. This metric would not benefit Marotte, at all. Does Marotte distinguish himself in this category from any of Regina's seven defensemen? No. Maybe Lou Fontinato, who got into just 21 playoff games, and maybe Bolton, but his career was abbreviated.

What's said about Marotte? Let me grab my scouting reports:

1972: short and squat and loves to hit... nicknamed captain crunch... first time in six years that he didn't get injured... occasionally takes a turn at left wing... (should we question his offensive totals, maybe?)

1973: rugged, compact... a tough hitter... often used at LW because of his hard shot...

1975: Marotte is not one of 11 NYR players mentioned.

1976: Marotte is not one of 13 NYR players mentioned.

1977: Marotte is not one of 11 NYR players mentioned.

1978: Marotte is not one of 10 STL players mentioned. (he is listed with STL, book was made before his move to WHA)

So his legacy really seems to be that he was a good defenseman who sometimes played LW, and was best known as an excellent hitter. Does Marotte distinguish himself in this category from any of Regina's seven defensemen? No.

What am I missing here?


Last edited by seventieslord: 07-16-2010 at 04:00 PM.
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Old
07-16-2010, 06:23 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
You just know seventies is likely to contest that one- and I wouldn't fault him for it.

And I'd like to see more evidence for small Regina forwards, era's factored in.
We do have small forwards. I can't disagree with that. Comically small, no. But small. However, they have a lot of battle in them.

I'm sure you recall my elementary "adjustment formula" for size, that helps to illustrate how tall some players were in the context of their eras. (pre-1970 DOB, +1 inch. Pre-1950, +2. pre-1930, +3. pre-1910, +4. pre-1890, +5)

Here are the adjusted heights of my top-7:

Bolton 6'6"
Fontinato 6'3"
Regehr 6'3"
Redden 6'2"
McCabe 6'2"
Hillman 6'2"
Arbour 6'2"

And for Philly:

Rouse 6'3"
Manson 6'3"
Hamilton 6'3"
Roberts 6'2"
Milbury 6'2"
Doughty 6'0"
Marotte 5'11"

Their D-men average just under 6'1.7", and ours average just over 6'2.9". The size of their defense corps is a bit above average, ours is well above average. Will they intimidate our forwards? Doubtful; there just isn't anyone who will be intimidated. Here are the adjusted heights of the forward corps:

Arnott 6'5"
Gardner 6'4"
Jirik 6'1"
Labine 6'0"
MacMillan 6'0"
Hergesheimer 5'11"
Jordan 5'11"
Boudrias 5'10"
Hampson 5'10"
Drury 5'10"
Kozlov 5'10"
Warwick 5'9"

That is an average of 5'11 3/4". How about Philly:

MacLean 6'3"
Trojak 6'2"
Groso 6'2"
Dahlstrom 6'2"
Boschman 6'1"
Fairbairn 6'0"
Lever 6'0"
Scanlan 6'0" (size unknown, assumed average)
Gallant 5'11"
Granato 5'11"
Lacroix 5'10"
Ronning 5'9"

They average 6'0 1/4". Or, half an inch taller than the Regina forwards on average. Compared to the 1.2" advantage found in the defense corps. They could say their big defensemen will intimidate our forwards since they average about 2 inches taller than our forwards, I could say the same thing since our defensemen average about 2.5 inches taller than their forwards.

I really hope this doesn't get into a debate about adjusting player sizes (looks over shoulder suspiciously for GBC) because I think this is a universally accepted concept by now. I know LF, EB, dreakmur, VI, jarek and others all agree. (though, of course, my own particular formula is by no means a "standard")

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07-16-2010, 08:38 AM
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The Blazers GM is sitting Doughty and the Capitals GM is arguing against the all-star votes.

Early advantage Philly!

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07-16-2010, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
The Blazers GM is sitting Doughty and the Capitals GM is arguing against the all-star votes.

Early advantage Philly!
so the all-star votes have to be correct? I'm not ready to accept that as canon. Marotte is almost always an early MLD pick so he's a "safe" choice for anyone throwing together their votes. If he's the 7th-best defenseman in the MLD, it shouldn't be too hard to justify that. But I don't see anyone coming in here to tell me why Marotte is better, as of yet.

Funny how I argue against the MLD all-star votes, yet I argue for the actual all-star votes, you know, the ones that actually happened, but I'm doing something wrong.


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07-16-2010, 04:09 PM
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Redden is the only guy that's arguably better than Marotte. You could make an argument for Redden, but you better hope you're getting Redden in his 20s, not Redden in his 30s, the train wreck Redden. Marotte also logged major minutes and was easily the most important player when he played for LA. He was on the ice for the most goals of anybody on the team by margins of 15(combing CHI & LA), 29, 28, and 22. In his 2 seasons with the Rangers, he was 3rd among defenseman in goals on ice for behind two ATDers Park and Greschner, and 3rd behind 2 ATDers, Greschner and Vadnais. Regehr and Arbour are defensive specialists that provide next to nothing in the offensive zone, and McCabe is a PP specialist that struggles in his own zone. Hillman is a good bottom pairing guy that could play in both ends, but isn't in Marotte's level. Also, during Montreal's cup winning team in 68-69 I noticed Hillman only played one playoff game, do you know if this was because of injury or was he a healthy scratch? Clearly ahead of him on the depth chart were Tremblay, Savard, Laperriere, and Harris. He should have been able to crack MTL's top 5, no? There's another guy who is undrafted that played in 11 playoff games that year. Bolton is also a defensive specialist.

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07-16-2010, 04:12 PM
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Billy: Are you sure Lever can play RW? I checked six straight scouting reports from 1975 to 1980 and they all mention "can play center or LW" and two of them mention "prefers to play LW". One of those mentions it's because he sees more of the ice that way.

Center, sure. The books clearly state he can do that. But RW is never mentioned, and it seems to be the exact opposite of what he prefers.

I think some proof that he played well at RW, or played RW at all, would be a good thing for Philly. I talk with Joe Pelletier often, but he very well could have made a mistake in his "written 30 years after Lever retired" bio. I trust the "written throughout the seasons of his careers" notes myself.

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07-16-2010, 04:18 PM
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The comment about small forwards was directed specifically at your top 6. Drury and Kozlov are small for modern standards, and even with your adjusted stats, only 2 of your top 6 guys are over 6'. They are going against 4 noted physical guys, 3 of which could take your head off. Also, is there anything that indicates that Arnott has played the point on the PP before? I don't ever remember seeing him on the point, always down low in the corners or in front of the net but I could be mistaken.

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07-16-2010, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Billy: Are you sure Lever can play RW? I checked six straight scouting reports from 1975 to 1980 and they all mention "can play center or LW" and two of them mention "prefers to play LW". One of those mentions it's because he sees more of the ice that way.

Center, sure. The books clearly state he can do that. But RW is never mentioned, and it seems to be the exact opposite of what he prefers.

I think some proof that he played well at RW, or played RW at all, would be a good thing for Philly. I talk with Joe Pelletier often, but he very well could have made a mistake in his "written 30 years after Lever retired" bio. I trust the "written throughout the seasons of his careers" notes myself.
This is what I was going on:

Quote:
He was versatile and could play all three forward positions if needed
Here's something else:

Quote:
Lever picked up the puck and put an 18-foot shot past Resch. ... It was the right wing s 23d goal of the season, equaling his output last season, ...
http://news.google.com/archivesearch...d=us&scoring=a

I can't access the complete article because it costs money, but it says the RW scored the goal which equaled his output of 23 goals the previous year. The article was written March 19th, 1975. So the writer was referring to the 1973-1974 season, a season in which Lever scored 23 goals.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...leverdo01.html


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07-16-2010, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Redden is the only guy that's arguably better than Marotte. You could make an argument for Redden, but you better hope you're getting Redden in his 20s, not Redden in his 30s, the train wreck Redden.
Billy, Billy, Billy... I thought you'd do better.

This is the ATD, and the players we draft are going to give us a little of everything we've seen in their careers. At this point, 90% of Redden's career has been spent as an excellent top-pairing defenseman.

All of our defensemen are "arguably" better than Marotte, you'll need to explain better than you have.

Quote:
Marotte also logged major minutes and was easily the most important player when he played for LA. He was on the ice for the most goals of anybody on the team by margins of 15(combing CHI & LA), 29, 28, and 22. In his 2 seasons with the Rangers, he was 3rd among defenseman in goals on ice for behind two ATDers Park and Greschner, and 3rd behind 2 ATDers, Greschner and Vadnais.
I know. This is how his TOI was calculated by the guys at the hockey analysis group. This is where I got those TOI rankings that show he averaged 2.4 on his team's depth chart in his career.

Quote:
Regehr and Arbour are defensive specialists that provide next to nothing in the offensive zone,
Yes, they are. So are Rouse and to a lesser extent Milbury and Hamilton. And Manson & Roberts too, aside from 3-4 seasons. What's your point?

Funny how Arbour was 5th in Norris voting TWICE, much higher than Marotte EVER placed, despite that he didn't have high point totals helping him out.

Quote:
and McCabe is a PP specialist that struggles in his own zone.
Yes, sometimes. Other times he is great. He has made some high profile gaffes and playing in Toronto hasn't helped. But his adjusted +/- is +101 so he has, throughout his career, had a huge impact on his team's goal differential. This doesn't fit the profile of most offensive or PP specialists.

Quote:
Hillman is a good bottom pairing guy that could play in both ends, but isn't in Marotte's level.
Why not? Did he get less Norris and all-star recognition? Did he not win enough? Did he not play long enough? Are there not enough quotes out there emphasizing his greatness in something other than bodychecking? Tell me.

Quote:
Also, during Montreal's cup winning team in 68-69 I noticed Hillman only played one playoff game, do you know if this was because of injury or was he a healthy scratch? Clearly ahead of him on the depth chart were Tremblay, Savard, Laperriere, and Harris. He should have been able to crack MTL's top 5, no? There's another guy who is undrafted that played in 11 playoff games that year.
You mean Terry Harper? Oh, he's drafted. Veeeeeery drafted. 296th, actually. After Harris was drafted 408th, that whole defense corps was picked up. No shame in not cracking that top-5. And to answer your question, I'm not sure if he was injured or a healthy scratch, probably the latter. Two years prior he was Toronto's best defenseman in a cup win, and pushed Bobby Baun out of the lineup. and three years later he was Buffalo's #1 defenseman.

Quote:
Bolton is also a defensive specialist.
How do you figure? He did place 6th and 8th in scoring by defensemen, that's not usually defensive specialist territory, please explain.

Bolton was also a huge hitter. Sounds like a shorter-career Marotte... except he was 6'3" in the 50s instead of 5'10" in the 1970s... and he got more Norris consideration.

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07-16-2010, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Also, is there anything that indicates that Arnott has played the point on the PP before? I don't ever remember seeing him on the point, always down low in the corners or in front of the net but I could be mistaken.
TDMM, who watches all the Devils games, said Arnott played the point in the 2000 season for the Devils and they had the league's top PP that season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
This is what I was going on:



Here's something else:



http://news.google.com/archivesearch...d=us&scoring=a

I can't access the complete article because it costs money, but it says the RW scored the goal which equaled his output of 23 goals the previous year. The article was written March 19th, 1975. So the writer was referring to the 1973-1974 season, a season in which Lever scored 23 goals.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...leverdo01.html
OK, fair enough, good work. It's still his least-preferred position though.


Last edited by seventieslord: 07-16-2010 at 04:49 PM.
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07-16-2010, 04:49 PM
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The comment about small forwards was directed specifically at your top 6. Drury and Kozlov are small for modern standards, and even with your adjusted stats, only 2 of your top 6 guys are over 6'. They are going against 4 noted physical guys, 3 of which could take your head off. .
Labine is easily the toughest player in either top-6; he'll be the one taking heads off. Gardner is tough as well. Both players provide enough muscle for their respective lines. Let's not pretend that garbageman Hergesheimer and mr. everything Drury can be intimidated, either.

I think Jordan is a pure offense guy. He's small and had low PIMs and all quotes are about his offensive game. But he thrived in a real rough era, I'm not worried. Kozlov had some battle in him too - just ask Adam Foote.

These aren't shrinking violets here.

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07-16-2010, 05:36 PM
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I'm well aware we're looking at the player as a whole, his entire career, where he was a very effective defenseman for Ottawa but the fact that at only age 30 his career started to go down hill. I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't point out how Redden has struggled these last 3 years.

Saying Labine was easily the toughest player in either top 6 is wrong. Is he? Eh, maybe but it's not as though Gallant, MacLean, and Trojak are pansies. Gallant averaged 236 PIM/year, and was top 20 in PIM 4 times, and MacLean was over 100 PIM 6 times.

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07-16-2010, 05:42 PM
  #19
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Saying Labine was easily the toughest player in either top 6 is wrong. Is he? Eh, maybe but it's not as though Gallant, MacLean, and Trojak are pansies. Gallant averaged 236 PIM/year, and was top 20 in PIM 4 times, and MacLean was over 100 PIM 6 times.
I agree. MacLean was a MULE, stubborn and strong as can be. Gallant was mean, full of energy and simply unfazed by contact, thrived on it actually.

When it comes to toughness NO Top-6 in this draft is tougher than one with Gallant and MacLean. At best, it may be a draw in that dep't.

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07-16-2010, 05:43 PM
  #20
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
The comment about small forwards was directed specifically at your top 6. Drury and Kozlov are small for modern standards, and even with your adjusted stats, only 2 of your top 6 guys are over 6'. They are going against 4 noted physical guys, 3 of which could take your head off. Also, is there anything that indicates that Arnott has played the point on the PP before? I don't ever remember seeing him on the point, always down low in the corners or in front of the net but I could be mistaken.
Arnott always played point in NJ. When NJ had the best powerplay in the league in 2000-01, this was their powerplay:

Elias - Holik - undrafted
Rafalski - Arnott

Mogilny - Gomez - undrafted
Niedermayer - variety of dmen

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07-16-2010, 05:45 PM
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seventieslord
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
I'm well aware we're looking at the player as a whole, his entire career, where he was a very effective defenseman for Ottawa but the fact that at only age 30 his career started to go down hill. I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't point out how Redden has struggled these last 3 years.
If you want to go there, we can talk about how far past 30 Marotte even played.

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Saying Labine was easily the toughest player in either top 6 is wrong. Is he? Eh, maybe but it's not as though Gallant, MacLean, and Trojak are pansies. Gallant averaged 236 PIM/year, and was top 20 in PIM 4 times, and MacLean was over 100 PIM 6 times.
I agree. But Labine is the toughest, by far, easily. This is a guy who made Newsy Lalonde's all-time mean team, along with some real bruisers.

It's not like you're loaded with pansies but I don't see them intimidating us either... don't even get me started on Trojak. He should not even be drafted. Malecek is an extremely questionable pick and he was a czech star. Trojak was just a czech glue guy.

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07-16-2010, 05:50 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Al Arbour probably has the best peak of any defenseman in this series, but it was just a few years. We were strongly thinking of drafting him, so I researched him quite a bit. He was basically a journeyman during the O6, who was never able to stick in a lineup. Then, as an older player, he finally got a chance after the 1967 expansion, and was fantastic for a few short years in St. Louis.

Thing is, just counting his two Top 5s in Norris voting doesn't really show how he couldn't stick in an NHL lineup the majority of his career.

Not trying to bag on Arbour, I almost voted him a MLD all-star, but something is to be said for consistency too.

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07-16-2010, 06:55 PM
  #23
BillyShoe1721
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We were also very close to drafting Arbour.

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07-16-2010, 07:02 PM
  #24
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Yes, they are. So are Rouse and to a lesser extent Milbury and Hamilton. And Manson & Roberts too, aside from 3-4 seasons. What's your point?
My point was they don't provide the two-way ability that Marotte does. Redden was top 15 in points 4 times, whereas Marotte was top 15 in points 4 times as well, in addition to being in the top 25 9 times. Redden was once in the top 10, Marotte was twice. At the same time, Redden was in the top 25 only 6 times. Also, you say Redden had 10th, 11th, 12th, and 13th place finishes among points by defensemen, but when doing research from what I see, he had a t-13th, t-11th, 13th, and t-12th. You said all of your defenseman are arguably better than Marotte, yet none have the offensive upside he does while still being a very good player in his own end.

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Funny how Arbour was 5th in Norris voting TWICE, much higher than Marotte EVER placed, despite that he didn't have high point totals helping him out.
The only thing I can point to is he played on bad teams for the large majority of his career, making the playoffs only 4 times whereas Arbour missed the playoffs only once. If your team sucks, you're not going to get the individual accolades.

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Why not? Did he get less Norris and all-star recognition? Did he not win enough? Did he not play long enough? Are there not enough quotes out there emphasizing his greatness in something other than bodychecking? Tell me.
They played relatively in the same eras, Hillman's career started a little earlier, and Marotte's career PPG of .32 is better than Hillman's .29.

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You mean Terry Harper? Oh, he's drafted. Veeeeeery drafted. 296th, actually. After Harris was drafted 408th, that whole defense corps was picked up. No shame in not cracking that top-5. And to answer your question, I'm not sure if he was injured or a healthy scratch, probably the latter. Two years prior he was Toronto's best defenseman in a cup win, and pushed Bobby Baun out of the lineup. and three years later he was Buffalo's #1 defenseman.
Ah, didn't realize Harper was picked. Nothing wrong with not cracking that defensive corps.

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How do you figure? He did place 6th and 8th in scoring by defensemen, that's not usually defensive specialist territory, please explain.

Bolton was also a huge hitter. Sounds like a shorter-career Marotte... except he was 6'3" in the 50s instead of 5'10" in the 1970s... and he got more Norris consideration.
I must've skipped over his point totals and I looked mostly at the quotes. Those totals are surprising. But beside those seasons, he it seems as though besides the other season he couldn't even break into the Leafs lineup on a regular basis. But, there was an impressive list of guys ahead of him.

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07-16-2010, 07:21 PM
  #25
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Al Arbour probably has the best peak of any defenseman in this series, but it was just a few years. We were strongly thinking of drafting him, so I researched him quite a bit. He was basically a journeyman during the O6, who was never able to stick in a lineup. Then, as an older player, he finally got a chance after the 1967 expansion, and was fantastic for a few short years in St. Louis.

Thing is, just counting his two Top 5s in Norris voting doesn't really show how he couldn't stick in an NHL lineup the majority of his career.

Not trying to bag on Arbour, I almost voted him a MLD all-star, but something is to be said for consistency too.
If you almost voted for him, should I take that as you thought he was about 11th-15th among defensemen? That's a #1 defenseman - I'll take that! Obviously you're reasonable enough to consider the whole package in your assessment despite his alleged inconsistency.

Now, about that inconsistency, you must keep in mind 4 things:

- if you read what type of player he was (solid, never makes mistakes, best defensively), you must admit that is not the usual profile of an inconsistent player.

- he was an ahl all-star and eddie shore trophy winner. Given the strength of the league and the relative stasis of the league it is not unreasonable at all to say the ahl's best defenseman was more than capable of being a strong NHLer during that period. The 24 available NHL spots weren't always given purely on merit. Nowadays you can say that the best 180 defensemen on earth (or perhaps the best 150 plus 30 of the next-best 50) are all in the nhl. Back then, it was more like the best 15 plus 9 of the next 20 best. Arbour was caught in a numbers game.

- the defense corps he was trapped behind in Toronto was incredible, maybe the best ever. Not cracking that team is not an indication of inferiority or inconsistency.

- Punch Imlach was known as a player hoarder - he kept as many great players as he could, and those he couldn't use immediately, he shipped to the ahl... he wasn't thinking about benefitting that player's legacy, he was trying to benefit the leafs long and short term. Punch even publically mused how he couldn't believe no one took him when they had the chance. Imlach knew how valuable he was all along. This also speaks to the resistance to player movement. The othe 4 teams that should have taken Arbour were just sticking with what they knew - or didn't think the upgrade was worth the waiver fee. That simply doesn't happen today.

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