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MLD 2010 Mickey Ion 1st round: #3 Regina Capitals vs. #6 Philadelphia Blazers

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Old
07-16-2010, 06:24 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
If you almost voted for him, should I take that as you thought he was about 11th-15th among defensemen? That's a #1 defenseman - I'll take that! Obviously you're reasonable enough to consider the whole package in your assessment despite his alleged inconsistency.
y.
Don't be too happy. I considered like 20 guys for the 10 defenseman spots. (Or more like 15 or so guys for the last 5 defenseman spots).

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07-16-2010, 06:34 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
I agree. MacLean was a MULE, stubborn and strong as can be. Gallant was mean, full of energy and simply unfazed by contact, thrived on it actually.

When it comes to toughness NO Top-6 in this draft is tougher than one with Gallant and MacLean. At best, it may be a draw in that dep't.
Hey, I fully agree, and that is all I'm going for. I realize they were toughies. But Labine has all-time caliber toughness. I still say he is easily the toughest in either top-6, by far, and for that reason the toughness edge for either side would be negligible.

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07-16-2010, 07:51 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Hey, I fully agree, and that is all I'm going for. I realize they were toughies. But Labine has all-time caliber toughness. I still say he is easily the toughest in either top-6, by far, and for that reason the toughness edge for either side would be negligible.
Labine might have been an all-time pest and tough guy, but Gallant and MacLean are 2 of the best power forwards in this MLD.

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07-16-2010, 07:58 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
My point was they don't provide the two-way ability that Marotte does. Redden was top 15 in points 4 times, whereas Marotte was top 15 in points 4 times as well, in addition to being in the top 25 9 times. Redden was once in the top 10, Marotte was twice. At the same time, Redden was in the top 25 only 6 times. Also, you say Redden had 10th, 11th, 12th, and 13th place finishes among points by defensemen, but when doing research from what I see, he had a t-13th, t-11th, 13th, and t-12th. You said all of your defenseman are arguably better than Marotte, yet none have the offensive upside he does while still being a very good player in his own end.
What can you tell me about his actual defense? I only ever see mentions of his hitting.

As for offensive upside - looking at a player's ranking among other defensemen is a start, but for comparing two guys from different sized leagues, it doesn't work. Being 18th with 66% of the 2nd place guy is more impressive than being 9th with 55%. I can show you more later. But I have no doubt that redden has the more impressive offensive record. 25th in redden's time is much different from 25th in Marotte's time. Comparing forwards this way is feasible. Comparing defensemen is not.

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The only thing I can point to is he played on bad teams for the large majority of his career, making the playoffs only 4 times whereas Arbour missed the playoffs only once. If your team sucks, you're not going to get the individual accolades.
I don't buy that; there are many examples of guys getting recognition on non-playoff teams.

Besides, when one guy always makes the playoffs and the other never does, we should start to question why that is.

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They played relatively in the same eras, Hillman's career started a little earlier, and Marotte's career PPG of .32 is better than Hillman's .29.
But I was asking why Hillman was no Marotte. Surely a 10% points per game difference isn't the only reason why? Especially when Marotte sometimes played wing. That might account for that whole gap.

When I get home I will check more, but the whole gap could even be due to powerplay usage.

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I must've skipped over his point totals and I looked mostly at the quotes. Those totals are surprising. But beside those seasons, he it seems as though besides the other season he couldn't even break into the Leafs lineup on a regular basis. But, there was an impressive list of guys ahead of him.
Yeah, there's that, plus he was still pretty young. He was really coming into his own, as shown by norris voting, then he suffered a career ending injury. Keep in mind that his point totals aren't that special, as per what I said earlier about redden and marotte, and I won't tout him as such. I was only illustrating he was not just a defensive specialist like Regehr, Arbour, or Rouse.


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Old
07-16-2010, 08:00 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Labine might have been an all-time pest and tough guy, but Gallant and MacLean are 2 of the best power forwards in this MLD.
They are good, but don't get too seduced by 1980s numbers... more on that later.

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07-16-2010, 08:24 PM
  #31
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By the way Billy, you are right about Redden's top-15 placements among NHL defensemen, they are 11, 12, 13, 13. I was going by a bio I did last summer, and I must have been wrong then. I will fix it.

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07-16-2010, 09:15 PM
  #32
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More fun with numbers:

Best six offensive seasons by defensemen (as a percentage of the #2 scoring defenseman)

Marotte: 83, 61, 57, 55, 52, 49 (possibly spent some time as a winger, though)
Redden: 80, 70, 67, 66, 61, 58

other Regina guys:

Hillman: 80, 70, 56, 54, 54, 47
McCabe: 98, 96, 75, 73, 62, 61
Arbour - negligible, not worth calculating
Regehr - negligible, not worth calculating
Bolton: 47, 46, 40, short career makes other calculations futile

other Philly guys:

Roberts: 66, 59, 55, 51, 49, 40
Manson: 72, 60, 55, 52, 37, 37
Milbury: 48, 48, 32, 32, 30, 27
Rouse: negligible, not worth calculating
Hamilton: 47, 47 (NHL) - 95, 89, 88, 77 (WHA) (the WHA years are impossible to put into proper context but regardless, it's safe to say they're not as impressive)

If I was to rank the offensive credentials of the 12 starting defensemen in this series, it would go as follows:

McCabe
Redden
Hillman

Marotte
Roberts
Manson
Hamilton
Bolton
Milbury
Regehr
Rouse
Arbour

You may wonder how I can have Marotte below Hillman, this surprised me as well. But as you can see, when normalized, their six best seasons are practically equal, with Hillman having a small advantage in second-best season. Hillman was never a forward during those seasons - Marotte was a forward during at least two of his best seasons, to which degree is unknown but that does make his results more questionable.


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Old
07-16-2010, 09:37 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Labine might have been an all-time pest and tough guy, but Gallant and MacLean are 2 of the best power forwards in this MLD.
OK, now onto this. I'm guessing you are using the "classic" definition of power forward, which is "a player who puts up points but is also tough", or, "a player who has both high point and PIM totals". They are good, no doubt, but all their best seasons were in the 1980s, so let's not get carried away with the "ooh, MacLean scored 27+ nine straight years!" or "aah, Gallant scored 34+ four straight years with Yzerman!" - these were good, but not great seasons. My modern wingers had a lot of good seasons too. In fact, I'd say they had even more.

I'm going to pull up some season-by-season adjusted stats. Now I am not a big fan of using career adjusted points to prove much, I'm seeing it like an epidemic on the HOH board lately and I don't like it. But as far as comparing two seasons by two players goes, it works. And let me stress the following: the league's assist-per-goal ratio, and the roster sizes have remained virtually unchanged, so unlike O6 era adjustments, there aren't a lot of wacky assumptions being made. The only thing that has really changed is the league's level of scoring, and adjusting those stats makes perfect sense for the reason that the value of a goal changes when the number of goals generally required to win changes. This should not be in dispute.

So, let's look at Gerard Gallant's best adjusted points seasons: 84, 73, 67, 67, 35, 33, 26, 26.
And MacLean: 87, 73, 69, 66, 65, 61, 61, 48.

now, Chris Drury is criticized as "nothing special", but his offensive totals were just as impressive as guys like MacLean and Gallant, but no one noticed, or they all forgot goals have been worth a lot more during the past decade. Look at his eight best seasons: 78, 75, 75, 70, 68, 66, 64, 62.

Kozlov is more of the same: 86, 84, 83, 75, 74, 71, 71, 64.

There is no doubt that Gallant was a fireball of a player. MacLean was what you'd call a "mule", and his scouting reports confirm that he did not shy away from contact and used his size well. I don't think either one was a defensive player, however. For one thing, they were rarely used to kill penalties. Gallant has 32 PPGA in his entire career, even the 7 nondescript Yzerman-less years where he was a nameless plugger he was barely killing penalties. MacLean has only 4! Kozlov is not a major penalty killer himself, but has 73. And Drury, he of the multiple selke vote-getting seasons, has 160.

MacLean and Gallant are tough players, but they do not provide more value to a team than Kozlov and Drury.

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Old
07-16-2010, 10:03 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
OK, now onto this. I'm guessing you are using the "classic" definition of power forward, which is "a player who puts up points but is also tough", or, "a player who has both high point and PIM totals". They are good, no doubt, but all their best seasons were in the 1980s, so let's not get carried away with the "ooh, MacLean scored 27+ nine straight years!" or "aah, Gallant scored 34+ four straight years with Yzerman!" - these were good, but not great seasons. My modern wingers had a lot of good seasons too. In fact, I'd say they had even more.

I'm going to pull up some season-by-season adjusted stats. Now I am not a big fan of using career adjusted points to prove much, I'm seeing it like an epidemic on the HOH board lately and I don't like it. But as far as comparing two seasons by two players goes, it works. And let me stress the following: the league's assist-per-goal ratio, and the roster sizes have remained virtually unchanged, so unlike O6 era adjustments, there aren't a lot of wacky assumptions being made. The only thing that has really changed is the league's level of scoring, and adjusting those stats makes perfect sense for the reason that the value of a goal changes when the number of goals generally required to win changes. This should not be in dispute.

So, let's look at Gerard Gallant's best adjusted points seasons: 84, 73, 67, 67, 35, 33, 26, 26.
And MacLean: 87, 73, 69, 66, 65, 61, 61, 48.

now, Chris Drury is criticized as "nothing special", but his offensive totals were just as impressive as guys like MacLean and Gallant, but no one noticed, or they all forgot goals have been worth a lot more during the past decade. Look at his eight best seasons: 78, 75, 75, 70, 68, 66, 64, 62.

Kozlov is more of the same: 86, 84, 83, 75, 74, 71, 71, 64.

There is no doubt that Gallant was a fireball of a player. MacLean was what you'd call a "mule", and his scouting reports confirm that he did not shy away from contact and used his size well. I don't think either one was a defensive player, however. For one thing, they were rarely used to kill penalties. Gallant has 32 PPGA in his entire career, even the 7 nondescript Yzerman-less years where he was a nameless plugger he was barely killing penalties. MacLean has only 4! Kozlov is not a major penalty killer himself, but has 73. And Drury, he of the multiple selke vote-getting seasons, has 160.

MacLean and Gallant are tough players, but they do not provide more value to a team than Kozlov and Drury.
I'm sorry, but I think adjusted points/goals are a very, very questionable tactic. Yeah, they played during a very high scoring time in the NHL, but you can't just take away their point totals. Chris Drury is not the offensive player Gerard Gallant or Paul MacLean were. Kozlov is debatable. Comparing Gallant and MacLean to Kozlov and Drury is like comparing apples to oranges. They're completely different types of players. Two power forwards versus 2 two-way forwards. My guys bring grit, scoring, toughness, hard forechecking and work in the corners and in front of the net, your guys bring responsibility in their own end and a little more of a finesse game in Kozlov's case, and Drury to a lesser but somewhat still true degree. It depends on what you're going for with your team and what each needs to bring to a line. Personally, I believe Gallant and MacLean are more valuable considering what they bring to the table. You obviously disagree.

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Old
07-16-2010, 10:27 PM
  #35
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In a Google News search, I see a couple of remarks saying Marotte "sometimes" or "occasionally" played LW, but it seems as though they are all in reference to the time he spent with the Blackhawks. This would throw into question one of his top 25 finishes (10th), and partially a 21st place finish because he was traded to the Kings mid-season. Do you have anything that indicates anything that he played forward anywhere but Chicago? If not, then it is safe to assume it was only done in Chicago? Also, a couple quotes I dug up in reference to Marotte:

Quote:
Glover is also ecstatic over the play of Gilles Marotte, the former Hawk
Feb. 3rd, 1972 Chicago Tribune

Quote:
solid defenseman Gilles Marotte
May 10th, 1990 Boston Globe Article looking back on infamous trade

Quote:
Inspired by the presence of Vadnais, Gilles Marotte ladled out some of the fiercest blocks seen in a Ranner uniform for a long time. ...
Nov. 13th, 1975 New York Times

Quote:
Gilles Marotte, the burly defenseman the Kings call Capt Crunch
Sep. 12th, 1972 LA Times

Quote:
because of the brilliant play of defensemen Gilles Marotte
Feb. 22nd, 1970 LA Times

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Old
07-17-2010, 12:40 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
More fun with numbers:

Best six offensive seasons by defensemen (as a percentage of the #2 scoring defenseman)

Marotte: 83, 61, 57, 55, 52, 47 (possibly spent some time as a winger, though)
Redden: 80, 70, 67, 66, 61, 58

other Regina guys:

Hillman: 80, 70, 56, 54, 54, 47
McCabe: 98, 96, 75, 73, 62, 61
Arbour - negligible, not worth calculating
Regehr - negligible, not worth calculating
Bolton: 47, 46, 40, short career makes other calculations futile

other Philly guys:

Roberts: 66, 59, 55, 51, 49, 40
Manson: 72, 60, 55, 52, 37, 37
Milbury: 48, 48, 32, 32, 30, 27
Rouse: negligible, not worth calculating
Hamilton: 47, 47 (NHL) - 95, 89, 88, 77 (WHA) (the WHA years are impossible to put into proper context but regardless, it's safe to say they're not as impressive)

If I was to rank the offensive credentials of the 12 starting defensemen in this series, it would go as follows:

McCabe
Redden
Hillman

Marotte
Roberts
Manson
Hamilton
Bolton
Milbury
Regehr
Rouse
Arbour

You may wonder how I can have Marotte below Hillman, this surprised me as well. But as you can see, when normalized, their six best seasons are practically equal, with Hillman having a small advantage in second-best season. Hillman was never a forward during those seasons - Marotte was a forward during at least two of his best seasons, to which degree is unknown but that does make his results more questionable.
This is fun and I'm not surprised to see McCabe and Redden at the top (I think they are the best two offensive defensemen in this series). But I don't know if it's a fair comparison. Defensemen who peaked in the late 70s through the early 90s were at a huge disadvantage, given the quality of high-end offensive-defensemen during that time. Would McCabe have finished with 98% of the points of Brad Park in any given year? What about Ray Bourque, the most likely candidate to be 2nd in points in any given year in the 80s? Al MacInnis (3rd best offensive defenseman of the 80s) would be really screwed by this metric.

Guys like Hillman (peaked pre-Orr) and Redden/McCabe (peaked after Bourque, MacInnis, etc, retired) would have a natural advantage with this metric.

Didn't Gordie Roberts have some good offensive seasons in the WHA too?

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Old
07-17-2010, 01:53 AM
  #37
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What TDMM said. #2 defencemen don't vary as much as #1 across era's, but you probably should mention who they are when using the percentage metric.

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Old
07-17-2010, 03:52 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
I'm sorry, but I think adjusted points/goals are a very, very questionable tactic. Yeah, they played during a very high scoring time in the NHL, but you can't just take away their point totals. Chris Drury is not the offensive player Gerard Gallant or Paul MacLean were. Kozlov is debatable. Comparing Gallant and MacLean to Kozlov and Drury is like comparing apples to oranges. They're completely different types of players. Two power forwards versus 2 two-way forwards. My guys bring grit, scoring, toughness, hard forechecking and work in the corners and in front of the net, your guys bring responsibility in their own end and a little more of a finesse game in Kozlov's case, and Drury to a lesser but somewhat still true degree. It depends on what you're going for with your team and what each needs to bring to a line. Personally, I believe Gallant and MacLean are more valuable considering what they bring to the table. You obviously disagree.
I disagree, and so do the facts.

You say "you can't just take away their point totals" - but yes, you can do exactly that. If scoring was 20% higher than now, then any given player should be expected to have 20% more points than now. That's exactly what happened. The goal of historical hockey studies and the ATD/MLD are to judge a player's value relative to his peers, and attempting to say 1980s stats are all well and good compared straight up to stats from the past decade, is highly contrary to that. Now we're not judging them relative to their peers, we're giving advantages based on what year they happened to be born in.

The formula involved in adjusting those point totals involves nothing more than multiplying or dividing based on each season's average goals per game. I already explained why that makes perfect logical sense. Drury and Kozlov have both had better offensive seasons than MacLean and especially Gallant, on average. And Gallant was the biggest shotgun rider in history. Never less than 72 points when playing with Yzerman, never more than 39 when not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
In a Google News search, I see a couple of remarks saying Marotte "sometimes" or "occasionally" played LW, but it seems as though they are all in reference to the time he spent with the Blackhawks. This would throw into question one of his top 25 finishes (10th), and partially a 21st place finish because he was traded to the Kings mid-season. Do you have anything that indicates anything that he played forward anywhere but Chicago? If not, then it is safe to assume it was only done in Chicago?
The two reports that said he occasionally plays LW were both from his LA years. So no, it doesn't mean for sure, but those were a couple of his highest-scoring seasons so it would make sense.

Quote:
Also, a couple quotes I dug up in reference to Marotte:

Feb. 3rd, 1972 Chicago Tribune

May 10th, 1990 Boston Globe Article looking back on infamous trade

Nov. 13th, 1975 New York Times

Sep. 12th, 1972 LA Times

Feb. 22nd, 1970 LA Times
Good start, more people should start using google news. If you're willing to do the work you can find some really good stuff. Do you have anything that says he was ever one of the best in the league at something? Solid is a word used a lot, and his strong hitting is no secret by now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This is fun and I'm not surprised to see McCabe and Redden at the top (I think they are the best two offensive defensemen in this series). But I don't know if it's a fair comparison. Defensemen who peaked in the late 70s through the early 90s were at a huge disadvantage, given the quality of high-end offensive-defensemen during that time. Would McCabe have finished with 98% of the points of Brad Park in any given year? What about Ray Bourque, the most likely candidate to be 2nd in points in any given year in the 80s? Al MacInnis (3rd best offensive defenseman of the 80s) would be really screwed by this metric.

Guys like Hillman (peaked pre-Orr) and Redden/McCabe (peaked after Bourque, MacInnis, etc, retired) would have a natural advantage with this metric.
I don't think it's as bad as you think. The top guys, Coffey aside, always had about the same kind of point totals. Starting in 1983, Coffey was an outlier with 96, followed by 75, 74, 74. In 1984, it was Coffey with 126, then 96, 85, 77. In 1985, it was 121, 86, 76, 73. In 1986, it was 138, 82, 82, 77. In 1987, Coffey was injured and it was 95, 81, 76, 68. Even in seasons like that, removing #1 successfully removes an outlier, while using the total of the player who was next-best, but closer to the pack than to 1st.

guys like Bourque and Park were rarely the top-scoring guy, they were often 2nd, but much closer to the pack than the leader, which is not to say they weren't special, the key to them was that they did it again and again and again.

1974 is the only season where Orr is a major outlier and then Park behind him is yet another.

Quote:
Didn't Gordie Roberts have some good offensive seasons in the WHA too?
Yes, he had two WHA seasons where his score would have been 100. But I made the judgment call that his NHL seasons (his 49% and 40% seasons, for example), were more impressive. In all likelihood, the guy was a much better player at 22-30 than he was at 18-21. Right?

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07-17-2010, 02:00 PM
  #39
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Here's how I would rank the defensemen, overall:

Marotte
Redden
Roberts
Regehr
Arbour
Milbury
Manson
Hillman
Hamilton
McCabe
Bolton
Rouse

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07-17-2010, 02:08 PM
  #40
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Gallant can be a shotgun rider all he wants, he'll just be with Cliff Ronning this time. When paired with quality linemates, he showed that he can be a very effective player. He will be doing the same on our 2nd line.

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07-17-2010, 02:14 PM
  #41
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I can't find the book, but I saw it yesterday when I was searching through Google news that listed 10 of the best hitters in the NHL and Marotte was #1. I wish I would've marked it down but I can't find it, I'll keep looking.

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07-17-2010, 03:32 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
I can't find the book, but I saw it yesterday when I was searching through Google news that listed 10 of the best hitters in the NHL and Marotte was #1. I wish I would've marked it down but I can't find it, I'll keep looking.
Was it this book?

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07-17-2010, 03:41 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Here's how I would rank the defensemen, overall:

Marotte
Redden
Roberts
Regehr
Arbour
Milbury
Manson
Hillman
Hamilton
McCabe
Bolton
Rouse
Sorry, Marotte's greatness is not substantiated in any way right now aside from some good offensive seasons, some hitting and minimal norris consideration. To my knowledge, none of us are old enough to have witnessed his career so it's all second-hand by now. The second-hand info we have doesn't prove a thing. You know Redden's better, the guy placed higher in Norris voting than Marotte ever did, 5 times.

Gordie Roberts as the 3rd-best in the series, and Manson just a few spots under, is also a joke. These guys were faces in the crowd compared to McCabe, for example. Roberts placed 4, 2, 2, 2, 2, 4, 5, 5, 1, 3, 6, 6, 3, 6 on his team in icetime among defensemen - averageing 3.5 on his team's depth chart throughout his career. Manson placed 6, 8, 1, 3, 3, 1, 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 7, 6 throughout his career, averaging 3.7 throughout his career. McCabe has averaged 1.8. It doesn't stop there, though:

- McCabe made the 2nd all-star team. neither Roberts nor Manson ever came close.
- McCabe has an adjusted +/- of +101, representing strong even strength play that outpaced his teammates. Roberts is +25, Manson +5.
- McCabe has been on the ice for 56% of PPGF and 43% of PPGA. Roberts was on for 20% and 39%, Manson was on for 30% and 33%. Clearly, neither was as relied on by coaches as McCabe was.
- McCabe has had four offensive seasons better than anything Roberts or Manson has ever had.

The only metric that can place McCabe below guys like Manson and Roberts by now, is nostalgia for the 1980s and 1990s, and pure modern bias. It's simply an inability to properly rank a player you've seen on an all-time basis because whatever negatives are associated with him are fresh in your head. I get that, I've been there. But we got over that for guys like Marc Savard and Alexei Yashin, it's time to do the same for a much more useful player overall like Bryan McCabe.

Buffalo thought enough of a 36-year old Larry Hillman in 1972 that they gave him more ice time than 25-year old Al Hamilton, who had been their #1 the year before. More than one spot should separate these guys.

I realize that different guys are valuable in different ways and I'd much rather try to rank the defensemen in three separate areas than venture an overall ranking. But you did, so why don't I give it a go:

1. Redden (clearly)

2. McCabe (for reasons described above)
3. Arbour (impossible to ignore that he was an Orr away from a two-time all-star, his situation has been well-documented in this thread)
4. Marotte (I can give him this much)
5. Regehr (Marott's offense keeps him ahead)

6. Hillman (quotes support offense, defense, toughness, team play, and numbers support his greatness too)
7. Roberts (averaged 3.5 on depth chart)
8. Manson (averaged 3.7 on depth chart)
9. Milbury (tough, solid player, minimal all-star consideration but had some. gets nod over Bolton due to longer career, still, averaged 4.0 on team's depth chart)

10. Bolton (had potential to be much higher but career is admittedly short)
11. Hamilton (tough call behind Bolton but was never recognized as a potential all-star in NHL, Bolton was, twice)

12. Rouse (defensive specialist, I loved him and recognize his value but at the same time, career adjusted -117, was usually a 5th defenseman, averaged 4.8 on team's depth chart)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Gallant can be a shotgun rider all he wants, he'll just be with Cliff Ronning this time. When paired with quality linemates, he showed that he can be a very effective player. He will be doing the same on our 2nd line.
There's a big difference between getting top-line minutes with one of the best centers to ever play the game, and getting second-line minutes with an average 2nd line center. Relatively, his situation is nowhere near what it was for those four years in Detroit. What you're going to get from him is much closer to the 7 Yzerman-less years than the four with Yzerman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
I can't find the book, but I saw it yesterday when I was searching through Google news that listed 10 of the best hitters in the NHL and Marotte was #1. I wish I would've marked it down but I can't find it, I'll keep looking.
Was this all-time, "of the decade", "in team history", or "at this current time"? just curious.


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07-17-2010, 03:51 PM
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Was it this book?
What a weird list. Marotte is first, followed by some famous body checkers, with some of the most famous poke checkers in history who weren't really physical at all thrown in towards the end.

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07-17-2010, 11:01 PM
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Was it this book?
Yes it was.

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07-17-2010, 11:04 PM
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I have to ask, where are you getting all these voting numbers? I've asked this question a number of times and I've yet to get an answer. I'd like to get a look at them.

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07-17-2010, 11:23 PM
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I have to ask, where are you getting all these voting numbers? I've asked this question a number of times and I've yet to get an answer. I'd like to get a look at them.
Sorry, but when else did you ask? This is the first time I recall reading that. If I am wrong, it was an honest mistake.

Anyway, check the award voting thread stickied in the HOH section.

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07-17-2010, 11:26 PM
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Arbour's small, small peak does not make up for his offensive shortcomings in comparison to Marotte. For the 10 seasons before that, he was not a real impact player if we're speaking in an MLD context. +/- is a terrible stat to judge an individual's performance especially. Here's a list of the last 5 +/- leaders in the NHL: Jeff Schultz, David Krejci, Pavel Datsyuk, Thomas Vanek, and Michal Rozsival. I'm certain nobody is dumb enough to select any of these guys. With the exception of Datsyuk (who is a phenomenal defensive player in his own right but benefited from a tremendous DET offense), all of those guys were the direct byproduct of having a successful offense. Schultz was a part of a mediocre defense with a dynamic Washington offense, Krejci was part of the 2nd best offense in the NHL where Boston and Tim Thomas had a freak year, Vanek scored 43 goals, and I'm just going to say Michal Rozsival. With the exception of Datsyuk, all 4 of those guys are mediocre defensively.

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07-17-2010, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Sorry, but when else did you ask? This is the first time I recall reading that. If I am wrong, it was an honest mistake.

Anyway, check the award voting thread stickied in the HOH section.
Somewhere in the draft thread, don't worry about it. Thanks.

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07-17-2010, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
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There is no doubt that Gallant was a fireball of a player. MacLean was what you'd call a "mule", and his scouting reports confirm that he did not shy away from contact and used his size well. I don't think either one was a defensive player, however. For one thing, they were rarely used to kill penalties. Gallant has 32 PPGA in his entire career, even the 7 nondescript Yzerman-less years where he was a nameless plugger he was barely killing penalties. MacLean has only 4! Kozlov is not a major penalty killer himself, but has 73. And Drury, he of the multiple selke vote-getting seasons, has 160.
Gallant did get very minor Selke consideration in 87-88 and 88-89. Just to throw it out there. Granted, it was one vote each time, it may be negligible, but indicates that he was not a liability at least.

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