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MLD 2010 Mickey Ion 1st round: #4 Baltimore Skipjacks vs. #5 Carolina Hurricanes

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Old
07-20-2010, 01:07 PM
  #26
MadArcand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
It's interesting to me that Marion isn't in the Slovak HOF. When the Stastny's played together for the national team, wasn't Marion considered the best one? I read that Peter said that Marion was the most talented of the three. But Marion was 30 when he defected to the US, so his best years were behind him. (Though maybe this is just talk, since Peter is the one who won the Golden Stick the year before he defected).

Agree that Anton appeared to be riding Peter's coattails.
Marian was a good player, but he was no patch on Peter. He probably said that to give props to his bro who definitely helped him a lot to become the superstar Peter did. I'm sure he learned a ton from his older brother, but he eventually surpassed him. I don't think Marian was ever better when you take their skill level at any given age. Marian might be considered better very early in Peter's career, as he was established quality player and Peter was just up-and-comer back then.

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Old
07-20-2010, 02:11 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Let's compare the forward lines, shall we?

Line 1:
Yashin is by far the most talented player in the series. When he was on, he was a dominant offensive center and Hart finalist. He wasn't always on though, and while his play later on was still good, he was just a regular 1st line center on a weak club instead of the superstar he was earlier in his career. He gets often maligned, but most of it comes from the ridiculous contract the Isles gave him. His play there might not have been as stellar as in Ottawa, but it was more than adequate. He led the team to consistent playoff appearances after the Isles missed playoffs for eight years in a row. His playoff resume is also often criticized, but he wasn't consistently bad in playoffs - he had horrible years, usually when his teams got swept, but also pretty good years when he was PPG or close to it - and that was four times out of his eight playoff appearances. He was also playing very well in Nagano, finishing with 6 points in 6 games. One thing we can't forget, Yashin was pretty damn big guy, and as such was hard to separate from the puck.

On the other hand we have Kuhnackl, a giant of a man, who dominated a joke of a league in Germany, but also was a productive player in the olympics. But it's never been establish how well would he play when faced with real opponents instead of opponents well below ECHL level for a full season.

The wings are brothers vs. brothers. Courtnalls may not have had the greatest skills, but they more than made up for lack of elite skill with their speed. Russ also added good stickhandling and playmaking, and solid defensive play, while Geoff played with an edge. Both have been first line players in the NHL for years, and while no stars, they got the job done.

Stastny's never proved they can play at elite level without their superstar brother. Unlike him, neither of them was even good enough to make the Slovak Hall of Fame (which, incidentally, Vincent Lukac did). While both were solid hockey players, they still rode the shotgun to Peter for pretty much their whole careers. What's more interesting, Kuhnackl is not only nowhere near Peter Stastny's caliber, he's also a very different type of player, and I doubt he'll fit two brothers who played with Peter since early childhood and were both used to him and at their best with him at all.

Advantage: clearly Carolina
But which version of Yashin are you getting? Are you getting the version who gives a damn, or the one who doesn't? We're talking about a player who sat out an entire season because of a contract dispute. We can't just assume Yashin will suddenly care because it's convenient for you. If Yashin was half-on, half-off throughout his career, you aren't getting the full package from him.

Say what you will about Kuhnhackl and his competition, but as far as I know, he didn't have any attitude problems. I also find it odd that you bring up Yashin's Nagano resume, yet discard Kuhnhackl's international resume. From what I understand, Kuhnhackl posted very strong numbers in all forms of international competition and was able to keep Germany in the 'A' pool almost single-handedly. Sure, he never played against them for "a full season", but it seems like you've just added that stipulation because you know you're wrong. 75 points in 75 games at the World Championships, a bronze medal at the olympics in 1976 (their only medal aside from 1932!). According to Joe Pelletier, he was the highest scoring non-Soviet player in that tournament.

Would he have dominated the NHL as he did the German league? Likely not, but his skill, size, and strength indicate that he would have been a good player. Can we say that with certainty? No, but we go with what we have. We have a player who dominated his home league, and who was very strong internationally. Why is this not enough?

As for the wingers, the Courtnalls were pretty good players. I'm actually curious, though. You say the Stastnys were nothing without each other. Well, we have two of them, and while Peter was obviously unavailable, its not as if Anton and Marian would just glide down the ice staring at him, waiting for a pass. As TDMM mentioned, both Anton and Peter praised Marian as being the most skilled. Had he come over to North America earlier, would we have seen that? Who knows. He was, at one point, 2nd in league scoring, behind only Wayne Gretzky. Anton, while not the flashiest of players, had good hockey sense and was able to make plays that way. Kuhnhackl is a multipurpose forward who could shoot and pass the puck, while using his massive size to make room for himself. From what I understand, two not-so-physical players like the Stastnys would likely benefit from having a guy like Kuhnhackl on their lines, especially in an all-time setting.

As for the Courtnalls, they played a total of 13 NHL games together in their careers. I wonder how they'll do together. As we saw in Montreal this year, it's not always poetry in motion when two brothers play on the same line.

So to conclude, I find it rather laughable that you give Carolina much of an edge at all. The fact that you say the edge is "clearly" in your favor is downright ridiculous, and one I do not at all believe to be true.

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Old
07-20-2010, 02:41 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Chigurh View Post
But which version of Yashin are you getting? Are you getting the version who gives a damn, or the one who doesn't? We're talking about a player who sat out an entire season because of a contract dispute. We can't just assume Yashin will suddenly care because it's convenient for you. If Yashin was half-on, half-off throughout his career, you aren't getting the full package from him.
How the hell does sitting out on a contract dispute affect a player's on ice ability and attitude?! Our teams here aren't on budget! Yashin sitting out for more money is utterly irelevant - it shows he cared a lot about money, but money can't be an issue here.

Quote:
Say what you will about Kuhnhackl and his competition, but as far as I know, he didn't have any attitude problems. I also find it odd that you bring up Yashin's Nagano resume, yet discard Kuhnhackl's international resume. From what I understand, Kuhnhackl posted very strong numbers in all forms of international competition and was able to keep Germany in the 'A' pool almost single-handedly. Sure, he never played against them for "a full season", but it seems like you've just added that stipulation because you know you're wrong. 75 points in 75 games at the World Championships, a bronze medal at the olympics in 1976 (their only medal aside from 1932!). According to Joe Pelletier, he was the highest scoring non-Soviet player in that tournament.
I actually did bring up his Olympics success as a positive - but over too small sample size. Also, how many of his points came against hockey dwarves? It's one thing to score against Canada etc. and another to obliterate the Poland's of the world.

1976 stats per game would be handy, but I suppose he scored a fair share against good teams too there, as Germany had scored quite a few against everyone.

1984 he scored 14 points in 6 games, but Germany scored 25 of its 27 goals against hockey dwarves in Poland, Italy and Yugoslavia...

Quote:
Would he have dominated the NHL as he did the German league? Likely not, but his skill, size, and strength indicate that he would have been a good player. Can we say that with certainty? No, but we go with what we have. We have a player who dominated his home league, and who was very strong internationally. Why is this not enough?
Because then we could draft any schmuck who'd dominate his abysmal league and put up a few good international performances. Kuhnackl is a worthy draftee, but not a first liner. If we accept Kuhnackl as 1st line player, then we need to start looking at the internationally succesful dominant players in other abysmal leagues - UK, Italy, France, Hungary, Poland, Norway... How can anything of use be gleaned from numbers posted against opposition that can barely stand on their skates without falling down?

Quote:
As for the wingers, the Courtnalls were pretty good players. I'm actually curious, though. You say the Stastnys were nothing without each other. Well, we have two of them, and while Peter was obviously unavailable, its not as if Anton and Marian would just glide down the ice staring at him, waiting for a pass. As TDMM mentioned, both Anton and Peter praised Marian as being the most skilled. Had he come over to North America earlier, would we have seen that? Who knows. He was, at one point, 2nd in league scoring, behind only Wayne Gretzky. Anton, while not the flashiest of players, had good hockey sense and was able to make plays that way. Kuhnhackl is a multipurpose forward who could shoot and pass the puck, while using his massive size to make room for himself. From what I understand, two not-so-physical players like the Stastnys would likely benefit from having a guy like Kuhnhackl on their lines, especially in an all-time setting.
They could benefit from him, in a vacuum. They also might not, given that they spent their lives playing with a different type of player.

And I assure you, Marian wasn't even close to Peter skills-wise. Ever. If you want to believe that, you can as well believe Gretzky's claims that player X was the best he ever played with.

Quote:
As for the Courtnalls, they played a total of 13 NHL games together in their careers. I wonder how they'll do together. As we saw in Montreal this year, it's not always poetry in motion when two brothers play on the same line.

So to conclude, I find it rather laughable that you give Carolina much of an edge at all. The fact that you say the edge is "clearly" in your favor is downright ridiculous, and one I do not at all believe to be true.
A proven, Hart-level dominant center in the NHL vs. a superior physical specimen dominating a joke of a league of abysmal quality? Proven, fast NHL 1st line wingers vs. players who were NHL nobodies without Peter Stastny? Yes I think the difference is vast.


Last edited by MadArcand: 07-20-2010 at 03:21 PM.
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Old
07-20-2010, 03:16 PM
  #29
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As I'm new to all of this I can't get into as much detail as madarcand can or possibly our 2 worthy opponents, still let me do some comparables:

Line 1:

Yashin was always an enigma but as was said when he was on his game he was on. The 1992 draft will never be considered one of the all-time greats but Yashin is considered by many people the greatest player to come out of that draft, he also was a 3 time all-star. The Courtnalls especially Geoff have always been favourites of mine. Geoff was never an all star but he was always a solid player much like Russ who did go to the all-star game once.

On our opponents team we have Erich Kuhnhackl and the other Statsny brothers. When I was doing research into voting for this I noticed that Kuhnhackl is considered the greatest German hockey player ever. While being the greatest hockey player from your country is indeed an honour this is a German player and Germany is not the hockey power that a Canada, U.S. Russia, Sweden, Finland or Czech Republic is. As for the Statsnys sure they where good players but they played in the run and gun 80's and as others have said where shown to be lost without Peter as is evidenced by Marian's being a ppg player during his first couple seasons in Quebec City and then dropping to 53 pts. in 70 games during his season in Toronto.

Line 2:

Ray Whitney is still playing in the NHL and was a wanted commodity in the trading period last season in the NHL. He's sure to provide a lot of leadership to our team and could very well be a 1st liner on a lot of other teams.

Mike Ridley was always a favourite of mine growing up, I remember Hockey Almanac in 1993-1994 calling him the best non-star in the NHL which was quite an honour in those days given the talent level in the NHL back then. Ridley should be a great playmaker for us given his 7 seasons of 40+ asissts during his career.

Vincent Lukac is someone madarcand introducted me to, as someone who doesn't follow international leagues I have to say I was impressed by him.

For our oppponents;

Eric Vail is someone that I've always liked as a player and he had a good career but I don't buy him as a 2nd liner even in a MLD.

Much like Vail Gagner is another solid player and one of my favourite guys on your team. Still his career numbers outside playing for the Minnesota North Stars is lacking (82 pts. as a NorthStar versus 61 pts. as a member of another team albeit the Dallas Stars)

Dave Christian had a reputation as one of the most consistent right wingers of the 80's according to Legends Of Hockey but was never voted to an All Star Game during that time. Another thing with Christian was his 2 seasons of a plus minus of -54 and -41. Yes plus minus is an over-blown stat and those Jets teams Christian was on weren't world beaters but those plus minus numbers are mind-blowing.

3rd Line:

Martin Gelinas may be known for being in the Gretzky trade but he should also be known for a penchant for scoring timely goals including 3 series clinchers and a much-debated non-goal back in the 2004 finals. For a 3rd liner Gelinas should provide value to our team in that regard.

Bob Carpenter adapted quite well later in his career to being a defensive forward. We drafted him because of that but having a 50 goal scorer on the 3rd line is nothing to sneeze at.

Dave Trottier is someone I take credit for discovering in this draft. He was a good 2-way player during his time and we're lucky to have gotten him.

For our opponents:

Curt Fraser: Fraser was a gritty player I'll give him that but he was mentioned as being a good defensive player. How is it then that his best plus/minus season was a plus 11 in 1985-1986 and he had 3 seasons of minus 13 or more and was a minus player for his career.

Jaroslav Holik is Bobby's father, I don't know much about him other than he was a good player, still I'll take Bob Carpenter in a 1 on 1 match.

Chico Maki has one of the better names in hockey IMO, he was also a pretty good defensive forward but I'm wondering if his being a pest will cost Baltimore games in this series.

Line 4:

Ted Irvine is the father of wrestler Chris Jericho, Irvine was also a pretty solid player who earned a reputation for being a popular teamate.

Mike Fisher was one of the few current players drafted in the MLD and 1 of 2 that we drafted. I expect Fisher to provide more defense than offense but I expect him to be solid for our team.

Roxy Beaudro was someone that was only drafted to fill an era requirement. That said he was a good defensive player which should fit in well with Fisher on our 4th line.

For our opponents:

Kelly Miller is a good player and should be good for your team. Much like madarcand said Miller has to be considered one of the top defensive forwards available for this, good find for him. Miller is also the cousin of Ryan and Drew Miller, 2 current NHlers.

Orest Kindrachuk is your team captain and put up good career numbers despite playing only 508 games.

Doug Brown is the type of player that should flourish anywhere. Not an offensive player, Brown is a good plugger that me and madarcand considered.

I give the advantage at forward to us and looks as though I put more time into this than I thought.

Later on I'll compare our defenses and goaltending as well as coaching.

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Old
07-20-2010, 03:30 PM
  #30
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by tony d View Post
As for the Statsnys sure they where good players but they played in the run and gun 80's and as others have said where shown to be lost without Peter as is evidenced by Marian's being a ppg player during his first couple seasons in Quebec City and then dropping to 53 pts. in 70 games during his season in Toronto.
This isn't really fair to Marion, who was 30 by the time he defected. He's being drafted for what he did in Czechoslovakia more than what he did in the NHL. But then, the real question becomes, "How good was he in Czechoslovakia?"

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Old
07-20-2010, 04:08 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This isn't really fair to Marion, who was 30 by the time he defected. He's being drafted for what he did in Czechoslovakia more than what he did in the NHL. But then, the real question becomes, "How good was he in Czechoslovakia?"
Never won the Golden Stick for the best player, but had quite a few top 10 scoring finishes:
Pre-1974-75 - none
1974-75 - 3rd (quite impressive finish)
1975-76 - N/A
1976-77 - 10th (Lukac 2nd, Peter Stastny 8th)
1977-78 - 5th (Lukac 4th, Peter Stastny 7th)
1978-79 - 1st (Peter Stastny 4th, Lukac 5th, Anton Stastny 6th) - also very impressive
1979-81 - no data (WTF? Gotta dig more)

Then he was in NHL, but of note:

1982-83 - Lukac 1st (also won the Golden Stick)
1983-84 - Lukac 3rd
1984-85 - Lukac 10th

Lukac is all-time 3rd best goalscorer of Czechoslovak league.


Last edited by MadArcand: 07-21-2010 at 04:24 PM.
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Old
07-20-2010, 09:37 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Let's compare the forward lines, shall we?

Line 1:
Yashin is by far the most talented player in the series. When he was on, he was a dominant offensive center and Hart finalist. He wasn't always on though, and while his play later on was still good, he was just a regular 1st line center on a weak club instead of the superstar he was earlier in his career. He gets often maligned, but most of it comes from the ridiculous contract the Isles gave him. His play there might not have been as stellar as in Ottawa, but it was more than adequate. He led the team to consistent playoff appearances after the Isles missed playoffs for eight years in a row. His playoff resume is also often criticized, but he wasn't consistently bad in playoffs - he had horrible years, usually when his teams got swept, but also pretty good years when he was PPG or close to it - and that was four times out of his eight playoff appearances. He was also playing very well in Nagano, finishing with 6 points in 6 games. One thing we can't forget, Yashin was pretty damn big guy, and as such was hard to separate from the puck.

On the other hand we have Kuhnackl, a giant of a man, who dominated a joke of a league in Germany, but also was a productive player in the olympics. But it's never been establish how well would he play when faced with real opponents instead of opponents well below ECHL level for a full season.

The wings are brothers vs. brothers. Courtnalls may not have had the greatest skills, but they more than made up for lack of elite skill with their speed. Russ also added good stickhandling and playmaking, and solid defensive play, while Geoff played with an edge. Both have been first line players in the NHL for years, and while no stars, they got the job done.

Stastny's never proved they can play at elite level without their superstar brother. Unlike him, neither of them was even good enough to make the Slovak Hall of Fame (which, incidentally, Vincent Lukac did). While both were solid hockey players, they still rode the shotgun to Peter for pretty much their whole careers. What's more interesting, Kuhnackl is not only nowhere near Peter Stastny's caliber, he's also a very different type of player, and I doubt he'll fit two brothers who played with Peter since early childhood and were both used to him and at their best with him at all.

Advantage: clearly Carolina
You're selling us off here rather quick, a 6'5" center with a rather smooth skating ability and profuse offensive talent is rendered useless just because he played in a foreign league with arguably not as much talent as a North American League? I could say the same about Lukac. IMO, if anybody is getting 155 points in ANY professional hockey league. That is beyond impressive, that is immaculate. As my colleague explained a few posts up, you've got a prima donna centering your first line who sat out an entire season because of contract issues, if you seriously think he has a moderate advantage over a hulking 6'5 forward who can skate, you're insane. Sure Yashin was one time a legitimate first time center. But I'd choose the national hero who provides offense at all costs over the Russian princess who is on a money-first basis.

Also, I think Riley Hern's talent towers over Yashin's. Obviously not looking at it from a positions perspective, but Hern is the best player in this series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
So you really are trying to make Jaroslav Holik out to be some kind of shut down force in this? Some proof that he has any shut down ability would be helpful before you talk about him as "one of the best shutdown forwards ever."
I'll do some research and get back to you, I may have to retract my wording but I can certainly back most of it up once I get my head around it.

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Old
07-21-2010, 01:15 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
You're selling us off here rather quick, a 6'5" center with a rather smooth skating ability and profuse offensive talent is rendered useless just because he played in a foreign league with arguably not as much talent as a North American League? I could say the same about Lukac. IMO, if anybody is getting 155 points in ANY professional hockey league. That is beyond impressive, that is immaculate. As my colleague explained a few posts up, you've got a prima donna centering your first line who sat out an entire season because of contract issues, if you seriously think he has a moderate advantage over a hulking 6'5 forward who can skate, you're insane. Sure Yashin was one time a legitimate first time center. But I'd choose the national hero who provides offense at all costs over the Russian princess who is on a money-first basis.
This is absurd. Yashin's edge on Kuhnackl isn't moderate, it's huge. Yashin's financial issues are, once again, irrelevant to how good a player he is in this context. Yashin delivered internationally, delivered in the NHL and often delivered in the playoffs.

OTOH we have Kuhnackl, with very good numbers in 1976 Olympics (but until you prove how many points he scored against relevant opponents, this doesn't mean too much), deceptive numbers in 1984 Olympics (where he racked up virtually all his points against totally crappy teams) and dominance in a league the level of which is beyond abysmal. Being best of the worst is more of an accomplishment now than being Hart finalist and exceptional NHL star for years!?

Quote:
Also, I think Riley Hern's talent towers over Yashin's. Obviously not looking at it from a positions perspective, but Hern is the best player in this series.
I'll leave that until I compare the defense and goaltending later today, but let's just say Yashin is far and away the best forward in the series.


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Old
07-21-2010, 03:34 AM
  #34
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Defense 1:
Markov is very good offensively and good defensively. His overall body of work is still pretty short, but he did well in the time he played so far. Kasparaitis is one of my favourites, exceptional hitter who was good defensively and always worked hard.

Beukeboom is like a bit better version of Kasparaitis to me - in hitting, defense and team accomplishments. He also generally averaged more TOI, and was the perfect fit alongside Brian Leetch in NYR. Lumme was the offensive leader from the blueline for his teams more often than not, while also playing good defense. His peak is below Markov's, but he also had a much longer career.

ATOI among team D (only among 20+ GP players, traded players compared using their combined ATOI against the ATOI of D-men on the team they ended the season with):
Kasparaitis: 5th, 4th, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 5th, 5th, 1st, 5th, 5th, 6th, 6th, 10th
Markov: 6th, 9th, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st
Beukeboom: 7th, 5th, 10th, 7th, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 5th, 4th
Lumme: 7th, 5th, 3rd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th

I think Lumme's comparable to Markov - similarly offensive leaders, defensively good - with Markov having the better peak, and Lumme career. Beukeboom is a better Kasparaitis, one more used to being on top pairing with a puck moving D-man. Both Beukeboom and Lumme have been better play-off performers than their counterparts on Skipjacks.

Advantage: slightly Carolina

Defense 2:
Skipjacks have a pairing of exceptional offensive D-man in Brown complemented with solid, physical Douglas. Both players are fairly one-dimensional, but Brown was incredible PP QB, and while Douglas isn't heralded as exceptional, he was at least good at defense. Brown's defensive play OTOH was fairly leaky, and Douglas' offense wasn't anything to write home about either. Simply put, a pairing where two one-dimensional players complement eachother well, and should work.

We have instead focused on having two all-around D-men on the second pairing. Driver was a steady player at both offense and defense, and will provide leadership. O'Connell was a great skater who provided lot of offense while remaining defensively responsible.

ATOI:
Brown: 4th, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd
Douglas: I only have data from '68 onward, and in his last two seasons he was 2nd & 3rd - I think we can assume he was top-4 most of his career.
Driver: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 3rd, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 5th, 3rd
O'Connell: 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 4th, 5th

Both teams have quality second pairing. I think while Driver is comparable to Brown, O'Connell has an edge on Douglas. The edge in playoffs, once again, is on our side.

Advantage: slightly Carolina

Defense 3:
Ellett was a good skater and offensive player, but his defensive play was very average. You remedied that with the solid - if unspectacular - stay-at-home Arnie Brown. It's a solid bottom pairing.

Gibbs was pretty much the type of player that Arnie Brown was. Cote, on the other hand, was a fine two-way rearguard, dependable on both ends of the rink, and in my opinion superior player to Ellett - he even made Team Canada for World Cup!

ATOI:
Ellett: 4th, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 3rd, 7th, 6th
Brown: 3rd, 3rd, 1st, 5th, 4th, 2nd, 4th (post-1968, we can assume he was largely top-4 player)
Gibbs: 1st, 3rd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st
Cote: 7th, 8th, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 2nd, 5th, 4th, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 4th, 3rd, 5th, 5th, 4th

Gibbs' icetime numbers are eye-popping - he was actually the #1 on his teams virtually all his career! Ellett had a pretty damn good run himself - better than Cote, though it has to be said Cote played a lot on defensively stacked teams. Anyway, even if one's inclined to take Ellett ahead of Cote due to this, Gibbs blows Brown out of the water.

Advantage: Carolina


Last edited by MadArcand: 07-21-2010 at 07:11 AM.
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Old
07-21-2010, 03:58 AM
  #35
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Defense 1:
Markov is very good offensively and good defensively. His overall body of work is still pretty short, but he did well in the time he played so far. Kasparaitis is one of my favourites, exceptional hitter who was good defensively and always worked hard.

Beukeboom is like a bit better version of Kasparaitis to me - in hitting, defense and team accomplishments. He also generally averaged more TOI, and was the perfect fit alongside Brian Leetch in NYR. Lumme was the offensive leader from the blueline for his teams more often than not, while also playing good defense. His peak is below Markov's, but he also had a much longer career.

ATOI among team D:
Kasparaitis: 5th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 5th, 1st, 1st, 6th, 12th, 6th
Markov: 8th, 9th, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st
Beukeboom: 9th, 6th, 11th, 8th, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 8th, 8th
Lumme: 8th, 4th, 4th, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 5th

I think Lumme's comparable to Markov - similarly offensive leaders, defensively good - with Markov having the better peak, and Lumme career. Beukeboom is a better Kasparaitis, one more used to being on top pairing with a puck moving D-man. Both Beukeboom and Lumme have been better play-off performers than their counterparts on Skipjacks.

Advantage: slightly Carolina
Beukeboom, 9th? 11th?

I would exclude anyone who played less than 20 games, including if Beukeboom falls into that category. Also, watch out for traded players in the lists. they can show up twice for a team (the stat line with the new team, and the "k" line which is their combined stats)

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07-21-2010, 05:58 AM
  #36
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^ fixed that.

BTW one more thing about Kuhnhackl, when he was so great, why didn't any NHL team even draft him? There was no problem for a West German to make the NHL back then if he was good enough...


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07-21-2010, 07:22 AM
  #37
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Goaltending:
Peeters won the Vezina, was a 1st team all-star, finished 2nd in Hart voting only to Gretzky, played in 1984 Canada Cup... he had a great, great peak. Hern was great in early era, and obviously other GMs feel him the best in the draft.

Mowers had a short but impressive career in the war years, but post-war he only played 7 games and was horrible. Hard to judge. Vokoun was one of the top goalies for pretty much a decade now. Playing on crap teams hurts his legacy a bit, but he was alway good for those teams. In fact, he's reasonably comparable to Luongo, who is ATD staple.

I feel that while Hern is superb starter, Peeters is also good. Mowers is IMO weaker backup than Vokoun.

Advantage: slightly Baltimore

Coaching:
Berenson has that one Adams, but his main claim to fame is in university hockey. I don't think that he stacks up particularly well against a proven Cup-winning NHL coach. Laviolette improved each team he coached - led lousy Isles to playoffs, led Canes to the Cup, led Flyers without a legit NHL goalie to the finals. Laviolette prefers aggressive play and is very good at line matching, that's why I feel you won't be able to get the line matches you want often, and since you rely on them so much...

Advantage: Carolina


Last edited by MadArcand: 07-21-2010 at 08:07 AM.
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07-21-2010, 07:42 AM
  #38
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Time to put my slant on the defensive pairings in this matchup:

D1:

On our team we have Jykri Lumme and Jeff Beukeboom. Lumme is the prototypical offensive defenseman for this sort of draft and Beukeboom is the prototypical defensive defenseman. I expect big things from this pairing.

On your team you have Markov and Kasparitis. Both are good players and are similar to Lumme and Beukeboom in the type of roles they'll fill for our teams. I like Markov but at this point in his career I don't think I'd have him as a #1 defenseman in a MLD, maybe in the next 1 but not here.

D2:

For my money Bruce Driver was perhaps the best pick our team made in this whole draft. He's our captain and I think he's a prime candidate for a bottom round pick in the next ATD or the top pick in the next MLD.

Mike O'connell is a solid 2-way defenseman, him and Driver should prove to be a good pairing.

For our opponent's team:

Jeff Brown was a player we looked at and were actually going to draft before you got him, he's probably the best offensive defenseman in this match, still as madarcand said he was pretty one-dimensional.

Kent Douglas was the definition of a player who started off great (ASG appearances in his first 3 seasons) but ended up tailing off. I wonder what Douglas will be there for this series.

Pairing 3:

Barry Gibbs was more or less a throw in pick for us but he turned out to be quite a pick as evidenced by his time on ice which surprised me to see.

Sylvan Cote was one of the 3 20-goal scorers on the 1992-1993 Washington Capitals defense (Kevin Hatcher and Al Iafrate where the others), for a 3rd pairing defenseman in a MLD that's not bad.

For our opponents:

Dave Ellett is a good offensive defenseman and 1 that I probably would have picked had I done this on my own but as madarcand said his defense was lacking and that is evidenced by his being a minus 48 for his career.

Arnie Brown is a good 3rd defensive pairing guy. He won't put up many points but late in the game you want him on the ice to protect a lead, good pick.

While I do give the advantage on defense to our team I think that the defensive battle here is much closer than the forwards battle.

I'll review the goaltending comparisons and the coaching comparisons later.


Last edited by tony d: 07-21-2010 at 08:32 AM.
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07-21-2010, 07:53 AM
  #39
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And I'm back with the goalie and coaching comparsions as I see them:

Goalie:

Pete Peeters was the first goalie we picked and should prove to be a good #1 for us. Having 8 shutouts in a season in the run and gun 80's is impreesive.

Tomas Vokoun is a name that would probably be considered for a lot more if he was on a good team. Often cited as a top 7-10 goalie in the NHL currently, I wonder how much better he could be if he played for a team such as Washington, Philly or Detroit instead of Florida.

For our opponent's team

Riley Hern was actually the 1st player picked in the MLD and was one of the best goalies in the early days of hockey leagues, good pick.

Johnny Mowers had a short career but managed to win a Cup along the way. Still his career was to short to determine his true impact.

I give the advantage in net to us.

Finally we get to coaching:

Peter Laviolette is easily a top 5 coach in the NHL today. He's won a Stanley Cup and came close to winning another 1 this year, really good coach.

Red Berenson is known more for being a college coach than anything else. I wonder if that will hurt him here as the players here are mostly professional.

Again the advantage in coaching goes to us.

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07-21-2010, 09:10 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czechoslovakia 1972: Players' Info
Was famous for his emotional and agressive style in both ends of the ice, often reached top results in both scoring and penalty minutes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYTimes.com
The Czechoslovaks beat the U.S.S.R. both times, even though the Soviets were at the height of their international hockey dynasty. Jaroslav Holik, Bobby Holik’s father, covered the Communist star on his sweater’s Czech crest with hockey tape and taunted the Soviet goalie after goals. Back in Prague, demonstrators faced the tanks holding signs that read nothing more than “2:0, 4:3” — the scores of the two games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Greenberg, SI
For the first 18 years of Bobby's life, his father, Jaroslav, one of the best players Czechoslovakia has ever produced, dedicated himself to making Bobby good enough to play in the NHL. The result—an Ivan Draso on skates—has been unleashed on the league with the aid of another Ivan, a fellow Czechoslovakian named Lendl.
Honestly, there is an extremely scarce amount on Jaroslav Holik's career, so I can't back up that he was one of the best shutdown players ever, but I have learned that he provided much more offense than I initially had expected.

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07-21-2010, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
This is absurd. Yashin's edge on Kuhnackl isn't moderate, it's huge. Yashin's financial issues are, once again, irrelevant to how good a player he is in this context. Yashin delivered internationally, delivered in the NHL and often delivered in the playoffs.

OTOH we have Kuhnackl, with very good numbers in 1976 Olympics (but until you prove how many points he scored against relevant opponents, this doesn't mean too much), deceptive numbers in 1984 Olympics (where he racked up virtually all his points against totally crappy teams) and dominance in a league the level of which is beyond abysmal. Being best of the worst is more of an accomplishment now than being Hart finalist and exceptional NHL star for years!?
I'm not comparing Lukac to Yashin, but if you believe that Kuhnhackl really isn't a factor, then the same should go for Vincent Lukac who played in several inferior leagues, those high point totals came from the United Kingdom. If you deem that impressive, then you basically go against everything you've said about Kuhnhackl not being good enough to even be mentioned in the same sentence as Yashin, that to me, is absurd.

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07-21-2010, 09:24 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Honestly, there is an extremely scarce amount on Jaroslav Holik's career, so I can't back up that he was one of the best shutdown players ever, but I have learned that he provided much more offense than I initially had expected.
He wasn't. I scoured a bunch of Czech sources, articles and bios, and nowhere is he described as shutdown player at all.

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07-21-2010, 09:27 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
I'm not comparing Lukac to Yashin, but if you believe that Kuhnhackl really isn't a factor, then the same should go for Vincent Lukac who played in several inferior leagues, those high point totals came from the United Kingdom. If you deem that impressive, then you basically go against everything you've said about Kuhnhackl not being good enough to even be mentioned in the same sentence as Yashin, that to me, is absurd.
Dear God, Lukac was one of the greatest players in czechoslovak league. He was better there than your Marian Stastny or even Peter Stastny, and they were damn good. Look at his finishes that I posted in reply to TDMM's inquiry into Marian Stastny.

I don't consider his UK numbers relevant AT ALL. UK league is crap, and he played there as ancient guy, just making money dominating crap competition.

It's his accomplishments in Czechoslovak league (and international stage) that matter.

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07-21-2010, 10:09 AM
  #44
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1ST PAIR DEFENSE:
Andrei Markov is one of the best two-way defenseman in the league today, and I would rank him in the top 10 overall still active in the NHL. As MadArcand provided for you, Markov has lead the Canadiens in minutes for the last five years, and has been top two for seven. He had to compete with an in-prime Sheldon Souray, at the time one of the best defenseman in the league. Markov is a great #1 defenseman who is incredibly two-dimensional. Kasparaitis was a raucous hockey player who caused chaos everywhere on the ice, his body checks were shattering, and if you asked most active players if they hated playing against Kasparaitis, they would concur, and tell you he was just annoying, but it was effective. He was a career +39, and in the 2001-2002 playoffs he went +10 for the Colorado Avalanche, he was a big part of the teams run to the WCF. I always liked Lumme, because he was a Canuck. I can't disagree that he was a great offensive defenseman. Buekeboom was good at moving the puck and moving bodies, but his skating was dismal and to keep up with particularly fast skaters on the Skipjacks squad may prove to be too much for the big defenseman.
Advantage: Baltimore

2ND PAIR DEFENSE:
Jeff Brown may be the best offensive defenseman in the MLD, when his seasons weren't shortened by injuries. He put up phenomenal numbers from the blueline, including one year with 25 goals, and 78 points. He may be one-dimensional, but mind you that is one hell of a dimension to be able to score 78 points as a defenseman. Kent Douglas is the reciprocate of Brown, as his defense is what made him the player he was. He won the Calder Trophy in 1963 as well as a Stanley Cup. He did take a lot of penalties, but was the type of guy who'd start a fight towards the end of the game with a player from the opposing team who could potentially have made a big impact in the dying minutes of the game. MA comparing Driver to Brown is pretty unrealistic, yes Driver was a PMD, but he was nowhere as near effective as Jeff Brown was. Driver had another elite offensive defenseman with him on the man advantage in Viacheslav Fesitov. Jeff Brown's PP partner was Garth Butcher, who had 5 goals and 10 assists. Driver and Fesitov could easily share duties as the anchor of the PP blueline, but Jeff Brown took the helm for the Blues, and resulted in an explosive 78 point season. O'Connell in my opinion is more comparable to Brown, you have two puck-movers on this pairing, and we have one exceptional puck mover and a tough defensive defenseman.
Advantage: Even

3RD PAIR DEFENSE:
Dave Ellett is atrocious defensively as he played on a very weak 1980's Winnipeg Jets team, we drafted him for the sole purpose that he provides on the second powerplay (Alike Bruce Driver [no superstar defensively either with -22 and -26 seasons] and Mike O'Connell [Very small and had seasons under -20] both on good teams throughout their careers). Brown isn't special defensively, but is a good defenseman to have on that third pairing as he can make plays and score. You want reliable defense in the post-season and I'll wish your third pairing luck Barry Gibbs was a career -116, but will provide offense. Cote is a good player to have on that last part, I'm giving you a slight advantage in this category because Cote isn't a stranger to defensive play.
Slight Advantage: Carolina

GOALTENDING:
Riley Hern was one of four goaltenders who received a demotion from ATD 12 to ATD 2010 because of an extraction of teams. As several managers noted, Hern was one goaltender who didn't deserve to be passed on in the ATD. He was a superstar in the 1916-earlier era, the Montreal Wanderers won the cup 3 times with Hern in net (1906, 1908 and 1919) riding Hern through the playoffs all three times. Though his 4.68 career GAA may seem alarmingly high by today's standards, keep in mind that the rules of the game at the time dictated that goalies had to remain standing to make saves. There was no sprawling on the ice like nowadays. Hern also had primitive goalie equipment. If he was permitted to go down to make saves, Hern may have gone down as even more of a legend then he is to this date, he was posthumously inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1962. Johnny Mowers had a career winning record, and an acceptable GAA of 2.56, it's too bad his career ended early, because he had potential to become an elite goaltender on top of what he already accomplished. Don't get me wrong, I think Peeters is a very talented goaltender. But I don't think he is on par with Riley Hern. He had good teams in front him during his long career, and I can't recall him ever touted as a "franchise player". Vokoun is a serviceable backup, but needs particularly effective defense to make sure he isn't left for dead. If you look at him with the Florida Panthers, their defense isn't anything to get crazy about, but neither is the offense.
Moderate Edge: Baltimore

Best of luck to you MadArcand and tony d, should be an eventful series.

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07-21-2010, 10:42 AM
  #45
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Looks like its voting day, so I'll say one more thing and leave it to the voters.

Quote:
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How the hell does sitting out on a contract dispute affect a player's on ice ability and attitude?! Our teams here aren't on budget! Yashin sitting out for more money is utterly irelevant - it shows he cared a lot about money, but money can't be an issue here.
You completely misunderstood what I was saying. It does not affect his on-ice ability, but it totally affects his attitude. A player willing to miss an entire year of playing hockey because of money has everything to do with his attitude, in my opinion. How can it not? A guy who'd rather make more money, than play another year of hockey doesn't just show that he cared a lot about money - it means that playing hockey was not his top priority at the time. That, sir, has a lot of impact on his attitude.

EDIT: A well-argued series, boys. Good luck

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07-21-2010, 10:43 AM
  #46
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Same to you velocripator and chigurgh, I expect it's going to be close.

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07-21-2010, 11:00 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
I always liked Lumme, because he was a Canuck. I can't disagree that he was a great offensive defenseman. Buekeboom was good at moving the puck and moving bodies, but his skating was dismal and to keep up with particularly fast skaters on the Skipjacks squad may prove to be too much for the big defenseman.
Advantage: Baltimore
I can't see how you can diss Beukeboom's skating yet remain silent on Kasparaitis, who was hardly a great skater himself. Lumme was better skater than Markov is, so it evens out. I can't see how all what you've written translates into edge for your team, really.

Quote:
MA comparing Driver to Brown is pretty unrealistic, yes Driver was a PMD, but he was nowhere as near effective as Jeff Brown was.
I compared Driver in overall quality and impact, and stand behind it. If Brown was A on offense and D- on defense, Driver who was C+ on offense and B on defense was overall easily comparable, if not better. Offense only, sure, Brown is clearly better.

Quote:
Dave Ellett is atrocious defensively as he played on a very weak 1980's Winnipeg Jets team, we drafted him for the sole purpose that he provides on the second powerplay (Alike Bruce Driver [no superstar defensively either with -22 and -26 seasons] and Mike O'Connell [Very small and had seasons under -20] both on good teams throughout their careers).
I disagree that Ellett was atrocious (he was mediocre, but atrocious defensemen don't get so much icetime so consistently), or that Driver and O'Connell were anywhere below good.

80's NJ teams were NOT good by any measure, does Gretzky and Mickey Mouse ring a bell? Driver was -22 on .338 team. He was -26 on .400 team. He was also +9 on .369 team...

O'Connell had one season below -20, not multiple, and was -25 on the Dead Wings, does that not ring any bells either? .488 team that was .250 a season before that...

They were not minus players on good teams as you try to insinuate.

Quote:
Best of luck to you MadArcand and tony d, should be an eventful series.
Good luck to you guys as well!

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07-21-2010, 03:55 PM
  #48
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Mowers had a short but impressive career in the war years, but post-war he only played 7 games and was horrible. Hard to judge.
His best seasons were before the truly war-weakened years, and then he himself left for the war. He's not as much of a question mark as a guy who only played during the war, not even close.



Quote:
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Kent Douglas was the definition of a player who started off great (ASG appearances in his first 3 seasons) but ended up tailing off. I wonder what Douglas will be there for this series.
While your assessment of Douglas' career is correct, I think the reasoning is faulty. He didn't play in the all-star game on personal merit, he did it as a member of the cup-winning Leafs.

Quote:
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1ST PAIR DEFENSE:
Andrei Markov is one of the best two-way defenseman in the league today, and I would rank him in the top 10 overall still active in the NHL. As MadArcand provided for you, Markov has lead the Canadiens in minutes for the last five years, and has been top two for seven. He had to compete with an in-prime Sheldon Souray, at the time one of the best defenseman in the league. Markov is a great #1 defenseman who is incredibly two-dimensional. Kasparaitis was a raucous hockey player who caused chaos everywhere on the ice, his body checks were shattering, and if you asked most active players if they hated playing against Kasparaitis, they would concur, and tell you he was just annoying, but it was effective. He was a career +39, and in the 2001-2002 playoffs he went +10 for the Colorado Avalanche, he was a big part of the teams run to the WCF. I always liked Lumme, because he was a Canuck. I can't disagree that he was a great offensive defenseman. Buekeboom was good at moving the puck and moving bodies, but his skating was dismal and to keep up with particularly fast skaters on the Skipjacks squad may prove to be too much for the big defenseman.
Advantage: Baltimore

[B]. Jeff Brown's PP partner was Garth Butcher, who had 5 goals and 10 assists.
Where did you get that? The only time Butcher even averaged more than 1:00 per game on the PP was 1988.

Quote:
Dave Ellett is atrocious defensively as he played on a very weak 1980's Winnipeg Jets team, .
You really think so? I don't. He was a #1 or #2 defenseman for 11 straight years, came out with a positive adjusted +/-, and was used to kill a ton of penalties. Growing up I always saw Ellett as primarily an offensive guy, but not like a Jeff Brown or Doug Crossman, he could definitely defend even if it wasn't his primary strength.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chigurh View Post
You completely misunderstood what I was saying. It does not affect his on-ice ability, but it totally affects his attitude. A player willing to miss an entire year of playing hockey because of money has everything to do with his attitude, in my opinion. How can it not? A guy who'd rather make more money, than play another year of hockey doesn't just show that he cared a lot about money - it means that playing hockey was not his top priority at the time. That, sir, has a lot of impact on his attitude.
You are right about this. It is things like this, that kept Yashin in the MLD and not in the ATD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
80's NJ teams were NOT good by any measure, does Gretzky and Mickey Mouse ring a bell? Driver was -22 on .338 team. He was -26 on .400 team. He was also +9 on .369 team...
You could also add, career adjusted +41 indicates he wasn't the problem for those teams, he was part of the solution.

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07-21-2010, 04:09 PM
  #49
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You are right about this. It is things like this, that kept Yashin in the MLD and not in the ATD.
Thing is... how does it affect his performance here? His primary motivation is money. He's also a great player when motivated. Great, we have unlimited budget, so it shouldn't be a problem... or am I missing something?

I also don't think it really affected his on-ice play in reality TBH. It destroyed his reputation, but otherwise? Nah.

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07-21-2010, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Thing is... how does it affect his performance here? His primary motivation is money. He's also a great player when motivated. Great, we have unlimited budget, so it shouldn't be a problem... or am I missing something?

I also don't think it really affected his on-ice play in reality TBH. It destroyed his reputation, but otherwise? Nah.
He was an off-and-on, hot-and-cold kind of guy and his holdout just further demonstrated his lack of passion for the game. I would put him in the category of any other ATD/MLD player whose attitude is questionable. Your opponents are right to call him out for it. Whether it is enough to overcome the fact that he's just much better than his counterpart, who knows.

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