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MLD 2010 Mickey Ion 1st round: #4 Baltimore Skipjacks vs. #5 Carolina Hurricanes

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Old
07-21-2010, 04:53 PM
  #51
Dwight
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Thing is... how does it affect his performance here? His primary motivation is money. He's also a great player when motivated. Great, we have unlimited budget, so it shouldn't be a problem... or am I missing something?

I also don't think it really affected his on-ice play in reality TBH. It destroyed his reputation, but otherwise? Nah.
Really? You missed the whole point once again.

We've established that this holdout likely had no effect on his on-ice play. However, this holdout definitely does show that his commitment to the game is questionable. The fact that he is so concerned about money that he is willing to miss out on an entire year of playing hockey, the sport and career that he supposedly loves, is concerning. It's not like everything before and after that year was peachy either - his terrible attitude is well-documented. For him, if the money isn't an issue, then something else will be.

Seventies is right - it's not the fact that he cares so much about money that I'm arguing here, it's the fact that the game doesn't come first for him. I don't know the specifics of the situation, but the fact that he was willing to put hockey aside for a whole season is not a good sign at all.

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07-21-2010, 05:51 PM
  #52
MadArcand
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Originally Posted by Chigurh View Post
For him, if the money isn't an issue, then something else will be.
Did he ever have any issues where money wasn't involved? I don't think so.

A player being greedy is nothing positive, but does it really matter that much? If I were you I'd try to focus on proving that Kuhnhackl could play against real competition at least in tournaments and dig up the 1976 scorelines.

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07-21-2010, 06:37 PM
  #53
Dwight
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Did he ever have any issues where money wasn't involved? I don't think so.

A player being greedy is nothing positive, but does it really matter that much? If I were you I'd try to focus on proving that Kuhnhackl could play against real competition at least in tournaments and dig up the 1976 scorelines.
Alright, I'm not going to bother going through this again. Clearly you either don't get my point or are choosing to ignore it. Hopefully the voters reading through this series will see my point.

But yes, I'll be moving on now.

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07-21-2010, 07:39 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Did he ever have any issues where money wasn't involved? I don't think so.

A player being greedy is nothing positive, but does it really matter that much? If I were you I'd try to focus on proving that Kuhnhackl could play against real competition at least in tournaments and dig up the 1976 scorelines.
MadArcand, you're simply being arrogant about this.

Yashin is a prima donna, his attitude is definitely a topic worth discussing in this series. It's possible that he would not play to his full ability if he wasn't happy with one thing. We're not leaving players weaknesses out here, like you've emphasized Kuhnhackl playing in an inferior league several times.

Yashin's attitude could result in a poor effort, or Laviolette stapling his sorry ass to the bench. As seventies brought up, Yashin is a minor league because he must have everything going his way.

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07-21-2010, 08:32 PM
  #55
Dwight
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So I've found the infamous Olympics stats from Kuhnhackl

The 1976 ones were requested, here they are - game by game.

First, I'll explain to those readers who may not know how the ice hockey Olympics tournament was formatted in 1976. 12 teams were in. Each team would play a qualifying game - the 6 winners would go into the final round, and the 6 losers would go into the consolation round.

5-1 win over Switzerland in the qualifying round: 1 goal
Final Round Games
7-4 win over Poland: 2 goals
5-3 loss to Finland: 1 goal
7-3 loss to Soviet Union: 2 assists
7-4 loss to Czechoslovakia: 1 goal
4-1 win over USA: 1 goal, 3 assists

In the end, Germany finished 3rd - ahead of Finland, USA, and Poland. Looking it over, Kuhnhackl had 7 points against teams that finished below him, and 3 against teams that finished above him. He contributed to 7 of the 14 goals scored against the lower teams, and to 3 of the 7 goals scored against the higher teams. I'd say that's about equal.

He had 10 points, enough to have him at the top of the points standings. 4 players had 10 points during these Olympics - all of them Soviets except for Kuhnhackl.

Vladimir Shadrin was ranked at the top simply because he scored 6 goals, more than anyone else. Kuhnhackl was tied for 2nd along with Aleksandr Maltsev, and Viktor Shalimov

Let's look at how these 3 Soviets did against Finland, Poland, and USA compared to how they did against Germany and the Czechs.

Vladimir Shadrin: 8 points vs FIN/USA/POL (out of 29 goals by the Soviets), 2 points vs CZE/GER (out of 11 goals by the Soviets)
Viktor Shalimov: 8 points vs FIN/USA/POL, 2 points vs CZE/GER
Aleksandr Maltsev: 8 points vs FIN/USA/POL, 2 points vs CZE/GER

So these guys each contributed to 2 of the 11 goals they scored against Czechoslovakia and Germany - less than 20% contribution rate, while Kuhnhackl contributed to 3 of his team's 7 goals against the Czechoslovaks and the Soviets - almost 50%. Even against the lower teams, Kuhnhackl had a contribution rate of 50%, while these other 3 players were under 33.3% each.

Not to mention, Germany scored half as many goals as the Soviets did - 21 goals to the Soviet Union's 40 - so Kuhnackl contributed to half of his team's goals, while these guys each contributed to a quarter of theirs.


Last edited by Dwight: 07-21-2010 at 09:10 PM.
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Old
07-21-2010, 10:54 PM
  #56
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Well it looks like kuhnhackl was up there with the best soviets in 76. Any theories as to why he was never drafted? Did he make it clear he would never leave Germany?

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07-21-2010, 10:57 PM
  #57
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Well it looks like kuhnhackl was up there with the best soviets in 76. Any theories as to why he was never drafted? Did he make it clear he would never leave Germany?
No clue. According to Joe Pelletier, he was offered a contract with the Rangers. However, he turned it down because he was making more money in Germany.

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07-22-2010, 12:07 AM
  #58
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Gotta admit, that looks like a great tournament for Kuhnhackl.

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07-22-2010, 02:03 AM
  #59
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Indeed. But then we have the 1984 where he bombed against better opposition, yet obliterated the wimps and he ended up with 2.33 PPG...

1984 for Kuhnhackl:
8-1 vs. Yugoslavia - 3+0
8-5 vs. Poland - 1+1
1-1 vs. Sweden - 0+0
1-6 vs. USSR - 0+0
9-4 vs. Italy - 1+3
7-4 vs. Finland - 2+2

That's no points against superior opposition, and quite the beatdown on weaker opponents.

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07-22-2010, 02:08 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
MadArcand, you're simply being arrogant about this.

Yashin is a prima donna, his attitude is definitely a topic worth discussing in this series. It's possible that he would not play to his full ability if he wasn't happy with one thing. We're not leaving players weaknesses out here, like you've emphasized Kuhnhackl playing in an inferior league several times.
How am I being arrogant about it? Yashin has major issues - but they come down to him thinking a lot of himself and wanting a lot of money. Primadonna? Sure. If we had him as #2 center, you'd have every right to assume he'd make a problem out of it. But he's the #1 on his team here, with money not being an issue. I think that mitigates the issues quite a bit.

It's noteworthy that if that claim that Kuhnhackl turned down NYR to play for more money in Germany is true, then he's not exactly a lily in the greed over desire to play the best hockey department either.

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07-22-2010, 03:14 AM
  #61
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
If we had him as #2 center, you'd have every right to assume he'd make a problem out of it. But he's the #1 on his team here.
Strange that we see it in two opposite ways. I don't like Yashin, I don't think anyone really does, but I respect his talent and like a few other modern players (Redden, McCabe, Aucoin, Hamrlik, Kovalev, undrafted slow playmaking center, undrafted goalscoring winger, Bertuzzi) he has seemed to get zero respect in the MLD/AAA because people focus so much on the negative. I get the impression that if he played in the 1960s that stuff would be a lot more glossed over and he'd be an ATD staple. But anyway, as for what we see in two opposite ways, I would consider Yashin the type of guy who "will never lead a team anywhere" - I'd take him in a secondary role myself and let someone else shoulder more of the scoring burden and the leadership. I'd say "If we had him as the #1 center you'd have every right to assume he'd lack character. But he's the #2 on our team here."

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07-22-2010, 03:33 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Strange that we see it in two opposite ways. I don't like Yashin, I don't think anyone really does, but I respect his talent and like a few other modern players (Redden, McCabe, Aucoin, Hamrlik, Kovalev, undrafted slow playmaking center, undrafted goalscoring winger, Bertuzzi) he has seemed to get zero respect in the MLD/AAA because people focus so much on the negative. I get the impression that if he played in the 1960s that stuff would be a lot more glossed over and he'd be an ATD staple. But anyway, as for what we see in two opposite ways, I would consider Yashin the type of guy who "will never lead a team anywhere" - I'd take him in a secondary role myself and let someone else shoulder more of the scoring burden and the leadership. I'd say "If we had him as the #1 center you'd have every right to assume he'd lack character. But he's the #2 on our team here."
He's not here to lead the team in leadership way. He's here to be the offensive star - and he proved he can do that. I don't expect him to be the guy who motivates others, or takes up the blame for losses - we have plenty of other character guys. I expect him to be the best, most skilled offensive player out there. The star, but not the leader. Yashin, Lukac and Marian Stastny are the top 3 offensive talents in this series, IMO.

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07-22-2010, 09:37 AM
  #63
Dwight
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Indeed. But then we have the 1984 where he bombed against better opposition, yet obliterated the wimps and he ended up with 2.33 PPG...

1984 for Kuhnhackl:
8-1 vs. Yugoslavia - 3+0
8-5 vs. Poland - 1+1
1-1 vs. Sweden - 0+0
1-6 vs. USSR - 0+0
9-4 vs. Italy - 1+3
7-4 vs. Finland - 3+2

That's no points against superior opposition, and quite the beatdown on weaker opponents.
But the 1984 format had 2 groups, with weaker teams populating each group. This means that the Soviets, the Czechoslovaks, the Canadians, and the Swedes all had to play weaker opponents. The Soviets and the Swedes were both in Germany's group, they had to play Italy, Yugoslavia, and Poland just like Germany did. Czecheslovakia and Canada had to play Finland, USA, Austria, and Norway.

What was the tougher group? Was it Germany's group or was it the other group? Well, there's nothing conclusive, but what I do see is that of the 4 teams from each group that didn't make the final round, 3 teams (Finland, Austria, Norway) from Group B lost their classification game, while only the Americans won. In fact, Norway (Group B) had to play a 2-game playoffs against The Netherlands to even get into the Olympics!

In the Final Round, the gold and bronze medals were won by Group A teams, while Canada, a Group B team, went the entire Final Round without registering a goal.

I wouldn't consider Finland to be a weaker opponent to Germany - they finished 3rd in Group B, as Germany did in Group A, and had a very similar goal differential. Kuhnhackl's 5-point game against Finland was in the 5th/6th place game.

Now I don't admit to knowing all that much about German hockey back then, so I can't really compare with much certainty the 1976 German team and the 1984 one, but this team only managed 2 goals against the Soviets and the Swedes whereas the 1976 team managed 7 goals against the Soviets and the Czechslovaks (a team we consider to be stronger than the Swedes). Can we fault Kuhnhackl for not scoring more against these teams? I don't think we can. From his numbers against other teams, I think it was pretty clear that he had shown up. Take into account also that Kuhnhackl was 25 in 1976 - he was 33 in 1984. It's not old enough to be "useless" in hockey years, but its still a relatively old age in hockey.

In the end, the Soviets, Czechoslovaks, Swedes, and Canadians all faced the same type of, if not slightly weaker competition as the Germans did, and those 4 teams made the Final round - meaning they got to play more games than Kuhnhackl's Germans. However, Kuhnhackl was still able to lead them all in points.


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07-22-2010, 11:10 AM
  #64
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Finland was about equal to Germany back then at best, but 5 points against similar level of opposition is impressive. 9 points against hockey atrocities in Poland, Italy and Yugoslavia really aren't.

I think what can be safely said about Kuhnhackl is this:
- he was dominant and absolutely exceptional for a German player
- he was always their key player on national scene and, given the level of his teams, produced very well - as should be expected from their best player, sometimes maybe even more
- he was huge

Now, it's guesswork as to how good would he be in other leagues. I think he could be a star in Sweden back then, and very good player in Czechoslovakia. He would likely play top 6 role in Russian league too. I actually think he could make the NHL, but likely in bottom 6 role, providing size and scoring ability - or maybe even bigger role. I could buy him as second line center in MLD, first line is still iffy. Bottom line, I don't think he compares well to Yashin.

How were Kuhnhackl's intangibles and defensive play?

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07-22-2010, 12:00 PM
  #65
Dwight
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Well, according to Eurohockey.net, he has 1256 PIM in 841 games (counting everything - WC, Olympics, German league, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Pelletier
The 6'5" 220lb giant also added 126 career penalty minutes (In World Championship Games), showing his willingness to play a physical game.
Bold added by me

Quote:
In Germany, they know Erich as “Kleiderschrank auf Kufen.”

English translation — the wardrobe on skates — for the powerfully impressive way in which he stood out among others on the ice.
As for defensive play - I haven't found anything written about it.

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07-22-2010, 01:11 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
How am I being arrogant about it? Yashin has major issues - but they come down to him thinking a lot of himself and wanting a lot of money. Primadonna? Sure. If we had him as #2 center, you'd have every right to assume he'd make a problem out of it. But he's the #1 on his team here, with money not being an issue. I think that mitigates the issues quite a bit.

It's noteworthy that if that claim that Kuhnhackl turned down NYR to play for more money in Germany is true, then he's not exactly a lily in the greed over desire to play the best hockey department either.
In Kuhnhackl's defense that was his native country that he had represented for years, and was most likely starting a family when offered the contract and it would be too much of a hassle to move them to the US.

Yashin on the other hand could've co-operated and might've made more out of his hockey career, but was not only stripped of his captaincy, but didn't play for an entire year. Not even in his home country. Kuhnhackl enjoyed success in Germany and decided to stay there for off-ice and on-ice reasons. Yashin just decided to be temperamental about it, and then continued his greedy ways leading up to the modern day.

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07-22-2010, 01:17 PM
  #67
Dwight
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Yeah, the Kuhnhackl situation is not at all the same as the Yashin situation.

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07-23-2010, 01:14 PM
  #68
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Carolina Hurricanes defeats Baltimore Skipjacks in game 7 overtime.

1st Star - Riley Hern
2nd Star - Pete Peeters, Alexei Yashin, and Andrei Markov

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07-23-2010, 01:42 PM
  #69
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Wow, talk about a close series. Well fought Velociraptor and Chigurh, thanks for the series guys!

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07-23-2010, 01:43 PM
  #70
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Goes to show weaknesses weren't considered here.

Best of luck to the both of you...

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07-23-2010, 01:46 PM
  #71
Dwight
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Hm, I don't agree with the outcome at all, but congrats to the winners.

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07-23-2010, 02:17 PM
  #72
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It was close as I thought it would be but congratulations to our worthy opponents on fighting a good series, you may have lost but you put up a great fight.

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