I'm not sure how you can already have him above both Sakuraba and Penn though, at this point in time. Care to explain?
I don't even know if BJ Penn would make my top 20 list, GSP is definitely above him. The guy has all the talent in the world, but he just doesn't care enough to make him an elite fighter. In terms of influence over the LW division i'd even put Pulver and possibly Gomi above Penn.
GSP isn't above Sakuraba though I agree with you there.
With regards to this ranking poll though I won't be continuing it anymore. The rankings are just way too messed up for me to keep going with this. If someone else wants to carry on i'm fine with that.
I don't even know if BJ Penn would make my top 20 list, GSP is definitely above him. The guy has all the talent in the world, but he just doesn't care enough to make him an elite fighter. In terms of influence over the LW division i'd even put Pulver and possibly Gomi above Penn.
GSP isn't above Sakuraba though I agree with you there.
With regards to this ranking poll though I won't be continuing it anymore. The rankings are just way too messed up for me to keep going with this. If someone else wants to carry on i'm fine with that.
Saku is up there, as a WW with the resume he has? Spectacular. Same goes with Bas. The guy was a MW/LHW, and beat the best in the sport, and went out on top.
As for Penn, I can definitely support people disliking the guy, but not putting him on a top-20 list? HE DIDN'T LOSE AT LW FOR 8 YEARS. His loss to Pulver was a questionable decision if my memory serves, too. He beat Gomi. He beat Matt Hughes. He beat Renzo Gracie in 2005. Went the distance with Lyoto Machida. Lost a split to GSP. Lost a later fight to GSP where GSP corner greased him, they respected BJ so much. Penn just lost, but I expect him to finish Edgar in the rematch. Then there are his BJJ achievements. All this from a guy who could fight at 145 if he wanted to.
Bas Rutten for me. He paved the way for the modern day evolving hybrid fighter. Entering MMA, his striking was already top notch, and being outclassed a few times on the ground, he trained so religiously that his ground game was just as feared. He left the sport on an amazing 11 year unbeaten streak and he's perhaps the only of the first generation MMA pioneers that I think could be dropped into the current crop of LHW/MW and be quite competitive if he were only slightly younger.
Oh, and he's by far the funniest of the bunch remaining too
Come on man, let it go. BJ lost that fight so bad it wouldn't have mattered if GSP covered himself in corn starch
I've let it go. There was nothing to let go in the first place. I'm not pretending to think it would have changed the outcome. Doesn't change the fact that his corner was so concerned about Penn's guard, they were looking for any edge they can get, with or without GSP's knowledge.
Regardless, for all of the points i have made, BJ Penn most certainly belongs on any reasonable person's top-10 list, let alone a top-20. Even the domain owner of http://www.GSP.OMG! (but maybe not the girl that runs this joint - http://www.myspace.com/gsprushfans, LOL).
GSP is probably close to Vovchanchyn all-time, if not above. At his current pace, he certainly will surpass Vovchanchyn, in my eyes. He will likely surpass Hughes in relatively short order as well.
I'm not sure how you can already have him above both Sakuraba and Penn though, at this point in time. Care to explain?
How can i have him above Penn? Huh, maybe because he beat him twice in a row at relatively the same height and age. Their list of adversaries is a wash (minus Machida, of course). Never been a fan of Sakuraba, most wins come againts fighters i don't know of. The matches with Wanderlei and the feud againts the Gracie's were awesome, but that doesn't mean he deserves to be so high on the list.
How can i have him above Penn? Huh, maybe because he beat him twice in a row at relatively the same height and age. Their list of adversaries is a wash (minus Machida, of course). Never been a fan of Sakuraba, most wins come againts fighters i don't know of. The matches with Wanderlei and the feud againts the Gracie's were awesome, but that doesn't mean he deserves to be so high on the list.
BJ Penn is 2 inches shorter, and >25 lbs lighter than GSP on any given day.
Penn was the best LW for 8 years. Within BJ's weight class, he's 12-1-2, both losses by decision (one not unanimous). At welterweight he's 3-3, with 2 of those wins, and all three losses coming against the greatest welterweights in the sport. All this from a guy who is of average size and build for his weight class, is comfortable at 155, but could be fighting at 145 if he wanted to.
GSP has been the best WW for 2 years (since he avenged his loss to Matt Serra). GSP is 14-2 in his division in major orgs, but was finished in both losses. He has never tested himself at middleweight. Two of his biggest wins are against Hughes and Serra, guys a smaller Penn has also beaten. GSP is a bigger WW, and cuts a substantial amount of weight to stay at 170.
If Penn loses his rematch to Edgar, and GSP cleans out Koscheck again, and whoever emerges from the crop of contending WWs, perhaps I'll reconsider Penn's placement. But for now, he's just proven a lot more in his career, and taken several more chances in his career to go and prove he's one of the greatest fighters in history.
How can i have him above Penn? Huh, maybe because he beat him twice in a row at relatively the same height and age. Their list of adversaries is a wash (minus Machida, of course). Never been a fan of Sakuraba, most wins come againts fighters i don't know of. The matches with Wanderlei and the feud againts the Gracie's were awesome, but that doesn't mean he deserves to be so high on the list.
So your not fan because you haven't taken the time to watch all his fights...At least your honest
I'm not the biggest fan either, but I respect his accomplishments and know he ranks up there among the greats.
Last edited by AndyPipkin: 07-22-2010 at 07:33 PM.
Realistically it should go to Bas or Saku. This thread really blows me away, I thought we had a pretty knowledgeable group in here but some of the comments about the pioneers of the sport are really hard to grasp.
It would be like me ranking the greatest hockey players of all time as follows:
Realistically it should go to Bas or Saku. This thread really blows me away, I thought we had a pretty knowledgeable group in here but some of the comments about the pioneers of the sport are really hard to grasp.
It would be like me ranking the greatest hockey players of all time as follows:
Realistically it should go to Bas or Saku. This thread really blows me away, I thought we had a pretty knowledgeable group in here but some of the comments about the pioneers of the sport are really hard to grasp.
It would be like me ranking the greatest hockey players of all time as follows:
Not really. I understand the point but Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, were clearly the best players of their generations by a country mile in a league that is extremely well established being around for roughly 100 years. Crosby and Ovechkin are the best of their generation but they'll never come close to outpacing their opposition the way Gretzky did, for example.
I'm not arguing for or against anyone's vote, just saying the hockey comparisons don't really fly.
Not really. I understand the point but Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, were clearly the best players of their generations by a country mile in a league that is extremely well established being around for roughly 100 years. Crosby and Ovechkin are the best of their generation but they'll never come close to outpacing their opposition the way Gretzky did, for example.
I'm not arguing for or against anyone's vote, just saying the hockey comparisons don't really fly.
Its a bit of a stretch, but the underlying point remains valid, imo.
Kind of like Fedor in the sense that it will be very hard for another fighter to go 30 wins without a loss against the guys he went up against.
Then it would be like ranking Lesnar ahead of Fedor...
i'll probably get burned for this, but, to me MMA is , well, MMA, meaning to be the best fighter in my opinion you should be a total fighter, Gracie was NOT that in my opinion, did he ever score a knockout in his career? NOPE, All his wins were submissions or decisions
the guy is undoubtedly a legend because he goes way back and BJJ and all that, but both Bas and Silva are ahead of him imho
i'll probably get burned for this, but, to me MMA is , well, MMA, meaning to be the best fighter in my opinion you should be a total fighter, Gracie was NOT that in my opinion, did he ever score a knockout in his career? NOPE, All his wins were submissions or decisions
the guy is undoubtedly a legend because he goes way back and BJJ and all that, but both Bas and Silva are ahead of him imho
Careful... differing opinions are frowned upon here round these parts.
BJ Penn is 2 inches shorter, and >25 lbs lighter than GSP on any given day.
Penn was the best LW for 8 years. Within BJ's weight class, he's 12-1-2, both losses by decision (one not unanimous). At welterweight he's 3-3, with 2 of those wins, and all three losses coming against the greatest welterweights in the sport. All this from a guy who is of average size and build for his weight class, is comfortable at 155, but could be fighting at 145 if he wanted to.
GSP has been the best WW for 2 years (since he avenged his loss to Matt Serra). GSP is 14-2 in his division in major orgs, but was finished in both losses. He has never tested himself at middleweight. Two of his biggest wins are against Hughes and Serra, guys a smaller Penn has also beaten. GSP is a bigger WW, and cuts a substantial amount of weight to stay at 170.
If Penn loses his rematch to Edgar, and GSP cleans out Koscheck again, and whoever emerges from the crop of contending WWs, perhaps I'll reconsider Penn's placement. But for now, he's just proven a lot more in his career, and taken several more chances in his career to go and prove he's one of the greatest fighters in history.
Instead of justifying my picks im going to let him do it for me.
1. Anderson Silva
2. BJ Penn
3. GSP
4. Fedor
5.Rua
Just saw PREDATORS. I change my vote to Oleg Taktarov. I had no idea he was in it. If he can take down a Predator, he's right up there (beating Sokoudjou isn't full Predator credit in MMA rankings).
i'll probably get burned for this, but, to me MMA is , well, MMA, meaning to be the best fighter in my opinion you should be a total fighter, Gracie was NOT that in my opinion, did he ever score a knockout in his career? NOPE, All his wins were submissions or decisions
the guy is undoubtedly a legend because he goes way back and BJJ and all that, but both Bas and Silva are ahead of him imho
Wayne Gretzky wasn't nearly as complete as Sergei Fedorov, either.
...the greatest fighter in the world has plenty of holes in his game...
Anderson is possibly the most complete fighter, but not quite the greatest yet in a historical sense.
How old are you really?
How old am i? How old are you for not figuring out why my i have poor english grammar, do you wanna have the discussion in french instead? Thought so...
Anyways,i still stand by my judgement. Most old Pride stars aren't even in the title picture in the UFC all around 32 to 35 years of age.
And LOL to still putting Penn before St. Pierre simply because he's 2 inches smaller and 20 pounds lighter even though he lost twice.
BJ lost that fight so bad it wouldn't have mattered if GSP covered himself in corn starch
