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Old
07-16-2010, 12:11 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Casey 91 View Post
There's no words for this. Richards and Neal for Kaberle, Kulemin and Grabovski?

The thing is he made a good point. He doesn't want to trade Kulemin just like you don't want to trade anybody on the stars.

Why is he not able to say, "No sorry I don't want to trade Kulemin for Ribiero. You would have to overpay for Kulemin." He even added a little to help you realize Kulemin is off limits.

You realize the Leafs have players they don't want to move also right?

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07-16-2010, 12:12 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Frozen Failure View Post
I'm inferring that Toronto doesn't have parts I'd want in a return for Neal, short of Kessel. Kessel being completely untouchable.
I'm saying Dallas couldn't afford Neal for Kessel even if the opportunity was there.

Don't act as if we don't know about Dallas' money situation.

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Old
07-16-2010, 12:13 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by The Wayner View Post
No not at all... I meant a seperate deal/different deal involving Kulemin++ for Richards, not both lol...
Phhew... But considering Dallas' LW, Richard for Kulemin +++ is about as likely as the OP.

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07-16-2010, 12:13 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrMitchell View Post
The thing is he made a good point. He doesn't want to trade Kulemin just like you don't want to trade anybody on the stars.

Why is he not able to say, "No sorry I don't want to trade Kulemin for Ribiero. You would have to overpay for Kulemin." He even added a little to help you realize Kulemin is off limits.

You realize the Leafs have players they don't want to move also right?
Bingo, thanks.

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Old
07-16-2010, 12:14 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post

That being said, Gunnarsson+ for Neal should be a deal that both fanbases could come to an agreement to.
No, it really shouldn't. Gunnarsson isn't a high-end prospect or a legitimate top-4 guy, IMO. Even with an additional pick + prospect, it still would be off in value.

As for this trade, no thanks. Kaberle to Dallas just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

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Old
07-16-2010, 12:15 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Jon Casey 91 View Post
Phhew... But considering Dallas' LW, Richard for Kulemin +++ is about as likely as the OP.
Ok so we have a deal then?
To Dallas:
Kuemin +++
To Toronto:
Richards +

Good? Where do we sign?

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Old
07-16-2010, 12:21 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Mo'sShow09 View Post
No, it really shouldn't. Gunnarsson isn't a high-end prospect or a legitimate top-4 guy, IMO. Even with an additional pick + prospect, it still would be off in value.

As for this trade, no thanks. Kaberle to Dallas just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Would you consider Toni Lydman a top 4 dman? Because that's exactly the same way Gunnarsson plays. He's easily a top 4 guy.

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07-16-2010, 12:25 PM
  #33
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James Neal is almost like this year's Phil Kessel.

He probably wants 5+ million/year from the Stars, who can't afford to give him that.

If he's moved, it'll be for picks and prospects.

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Old
07-16-2010, 12:26 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Running Riot View Post
James Neal is almost like this year's Phil Kessel.

He probably wants 5+ million/year from the Stars, who can't afford to give him that.

If he's moved, it'll be for picks and prospects.
Well maybe, but at least Kessel is a good for 30 goals a season.

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07-16-2010, 12:28 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by All_blueandwhite View Post
Would you consider Toni Lydman a top 4 dman? Because that's exactly the same way Gunnarsson plays. He's easily a top 4 guy.
Yes, I would. But that's based on his, what 10 years in the NHL, compared to Gunnarsson's 1. I think Lydman is a decent comparison in terms of style of play but I think he's less physical and has less offensive upside than Lydman. Both are marginal things because neither Lydman or Gunnarsson are overly physical or offensive but they aren't on the same level nor is Gunnarsson as proven.

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Old
07-16-2010, 12:30 PM
  #36
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It's a good thing this thread is about Kessel. Actually, this tangent is probably more fruitful than anything involving Kaberle. Really though, Stars fans and Leafs fans should just never talk, ever.

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07-16-2010, 12:40 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo'sShow09 View Post
Yes, I would. But that's based on his, what 10 years in the NHL, compared to Gunnarsson's 1. I think Lydman is a decent comparison in terms of style of play but I think he's less physical and has less offensive upside than Lydman. Both are marginal things because neither Lydman or Gunnarsson are overly physical or offensive but they aren't on the same level nor is Gunnarsson as proven.
Gunnarsson was on pace to equal Lydman's career high in points in only his first year. If anything, Gunnarsson has a HIGHER offensive upside then Lydman

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Old
07-16-2010, 12:47 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by IrMitchell View Post
The thing is he made a good point. He doesn't want to trade Kulemin just like you don't want to trade anybody on the stars.
Good point? Really, so you want to discuss 7th in league scoring in the same sentence as 16 goals and a guy described by Burke as not a first line player who should not receive first line money.

I never said this at all. I don't think the Stars need to make moves up front, but I accept it's not impossible one of Richards or Ribeiro and maybe even Neal moves if his contract talks go sour. I just (realistically) don't see a top line center and Neal as package to a 29th place team who has limited assets and a long list of untouchables.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IrMitchell View Post
Why is he not able to say, "No sorry I don't want to trade Kulemin for Ribiero. You would have to overpay for Kulemin." He even added a little to help you realize Kulemin is off limits.
So you have no need for a first line center? Mr. Offlimits would be 3/4 LW in Dallas, so it's not something I believe they'd inquire about, so your safe there.

It's the post he was replying to which I understood as swapping out Ribeiro with Richards thus making it Richards and Neal in that proposal, and yes that would be laughable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IrMitchell View Post
You realize the Leafs have players they don't want to move also right?
Yes I do, I'm not sure the general Leaf public does. Every time we see a Neal to Toronto thread, these untouchables such as Kulemin and Gunnarsson are served up, so it's getting a little confusing.

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Old
07-16-2010, 01:02 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Jon Casey 91 View Post
Good point? Really, so you want to discuss 7th in league scoring in the same sentence as 16 goals and a guy described by Burke as not a first line player who should not receive first line money.

I never said this at all. I don't think the Stars need to make moves up front, but I accept it's not impossible one of Richards or Ribeiro and maybe even Neal moves if his contract talks go sour. I just (realistically) don't see a top line center and Neal as package to a 29th place team who has limited assets and a long list of untouchables.



So you have no need for a first line center? Mr. Offlimits would be 3/4 LW in Dallas, so it's not something I believe they'd inquire about, so your safe there.

It's the post he was replying to which I understood as swapping out Ribeiro with Richards thus making it Richards and Neal in that proposal, and yes that would be laughable.



Yes I do, I'm not sure the general Leaf public does. Every time we see a Neal to Toronto thread, these untouchables such as Kulemin and Gunnarsson are served up, so it's getting a little confusing.
Didn't you know that Kulemin, Kaberle, Caputi, Bozak and at times Grabovski, and Gunnarsson are potentially 100+ pt. players or top five defenseman in the league, while your guys are 2nd or 3rd line guys on the leafs at best? Plus Neal at his age is obviously not worth 3-4 mil with the 27 goals he scored last year, most likely it was a fluke. (I'll add this in case it isn't clear )

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Old
07-16-2010, 01:12 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Mo'sShow09 View Post
No, it really shouldn't. Gunnarsson isn't a high-end prospect or a legitimate top-4 guy, IMO. Even with an additional pick + prospect, it still would be off in value.

As for this trade, no thanks. Kaberle to Dallas just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Gunnarsson is a borderline top 4 guy in his first season in North America. This is a player who is better than Niklas Hjalmarsson was 1 year ago at an $800k paycheque... that player is now worth approximately the same as James Neal at 4 years X $3.5m....Neal might be worth a bit more.

From a Dallas perspective, you could argue that Neal for Gunnarsson straight up is a good trade because it's aLW for two-way defenceman which saves a couple million on the cap. You include a relatively decent RW prospect in Jerry d'Amigo/Mikhail Stefanovich and a pick and it really is an overpayment.

This isn't me overrating Gunnarsson or underrating Neal. You've got 2 young NHL players both with a ton of upside. Neal is obviously better / more proven, but he's also going to be fairly paid because he's an RFA. Gunnarsson isn't at Neal's level but also hasn't had the opportunity, and he's going to be very much underpaid this year.

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Old
07-16-2010, 01:29 PM
  #41
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How many times have we tried this?

Proposals between the Leafs and Stars involving either Benn or Neal NEVER work out.

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07-16-2010, 01:30 PM
  #42
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Is Kaberle/Caputi the new Halak/2nd?

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Old
07-16-2010, 01:57 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Jon Casey 91 View Post
Good point? Really, so you want to discuss 7th in league scoring in the same sentence as 16 goals and a guy described by Burke as not a first line player who should not receive first line money.

I never said this at all. I don't think the Stars need to make moves up front, but I accept it's not impossible one of Richards or Ribeiro and maybe even Neal moves if his contract talks go sour. I just (realistically) don't see a top line center and Neal as package to a 29th place team who has limited assets and a long list of untouchables.

So you have no need for a first line center? Mr. Offlimits would be 3/4 LW in Dallas, so it's not something I believe they'd inquire about, so your safe there.

It's the post he was replying to which I understood as swapping out Ribeiro with Richards thus making it Richards and Neal in that proposal, and yes that would be laughable.

Yes I do, I'm not sure the general Leaf public does. Every time we see a Neal to Toronto thread, these untouchables such as Kulemin and Gunnarsson are served up, so it's getting a little confusing.
Why are you trying to break it down into little pieces? The whole point of my comment was that not every Leaf fan wants to trade Kulemin, and for somebody to say, "Kulemin for Richards and Neal, I like him way too much." isn't as crazy as you'd like to think, especially considering it was a joke hence the "".

I never once said that was fair/even/etc., I just said you need to realize that you have to expect people to not want him gone.

The general Leaf public? Gunnarsson and Kulemin will not be traded regardless of what some Leaf fan may think. Brian Burke just signed Kulemin and Gunnarsson is on a contract that you just don't give up on.

Sorry Dallas, but to the "general Leaf public", James Neal isn't as flashy/valuable as you might think.

*Don't turn this into a Neal vs. Kessel thread, because Kessel is bar none the better player.

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Old
07-16-2010, 01:58 PM
  #44
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I'm inferring that Toronto doesn't have parts I'd want in a return for Neal, short of Kessel. Kessel being completely untouchable.
Hes not untouchable, it just makes no sense trading a better scorer for another scorer -- when the team lacks scoring. Both are around the same age too.

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07-16-2010, 02:38 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
That being said, Gunnarsson+ for Neal should be a deal that both fanbases could come to an agreement to.
You've typed this a thousand times already, and I'm sure you'll type it a thousand more, but it won't ever be any more true than when you started. No Dallas fan is ever going to come to your kind of "agreement".

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07-16-2010, 02:41 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by piqued1457 View Post
You've typed this a thousand times already, and I'm sure you'll type it a thousand more, but it won't ever be any more true than when you started. No Dallas fan is ever going to come to your kind of "agreement".
That's only because Dallas fans look at his draft position rather than performance.

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07-16-2010, 03:08 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by All_blueandwhite View Post
Gunnarsson was on pace to equal Lydman's career high in points in only his first year. If anything, Gunnarsson has a HIGHER offensive upside then Lydman
On pace? Or did? Right he didn't. Which goes back to my original point. Lydman is proven. Gunnarsson is not. Niskanen had better numbers than Gunnarsson did in his first season, so does that mean he's better than him? It's flawed logic. You're trying to project on such a small sample size that it's pointless. He may end up being a top 4 guy. He may not. I wouldn't trade a proven scorer who likes to hit for a "may" or "may not".


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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Gunnarsson is a borderline top 4 guy in his first season in North America. This is a player who is better than Niklas Hjalmarsson was 1 year ago at an $800k paycheque... that player is now worth approximately the same as James Neal at 4 years X $3.5m....Neal might be worth a bit more.

From a Dallas perspective, you could argue that Neal for Gunnarsson straight up is a good trade because it's aLW for two-way defenceman which saves a couple million on the cap. You include a relatively decent RW prospect in Jerry d'Amigo/Mikhail Stefanovich and a pick and it really is an overpayment.

This isn't me overrating Gunnarsson or underrating Neal. You've got 2 young NHL players both with a ton of upside. Neal is obviously better / more proven, but he's also going to be fairly paid because he's an RFA. Gunnarsson isn't at Neal's level but also hasn't had the opportunity, and he's going to be very much underpaid this year.
It's debatable whether or not he was "better" than Hjalmarsson, don't pass it off as a fact. Also that's silly logic to think that Hjalmarsson is now "worth" 3.5 million. There were so many factors in that decision like the compensation back to Chicago, a price range that they felt they could 'steal' him away from Chicago, SJ's lack of depth on the blue-line, etc. Just because he was offered that doesn't make him "worth" that. To me that's just a faulty syllogism. Gunnarsson = Hjalmsson and Hjalmsson makes roughly what Neal want's therefore Gunnarsson = Neal. It's faulty.

You could argue it is a good trade. You keep bringing up the dollars (which is fair) but this is still a team that will try to do what's best for the club. Saving a few bucks this season just for the sake of it isn't going to happen. I see your logic, but to me you're just trying to rationalize it with filling in the blanks to make it work. Looking at it from the big picture it's just not there.


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That's only because Dallas fans look at his draft position rather than performance.
Funny, I actually have no clue what round he was selected in. I'm assuming the latter half. But I guess having Benn (a 5th rounder himself) means that we will give him up for Alex Bourett. 1st rounder > 5th rounder.

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07-16-2010, 03:10 PM
  #48
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That's only because Dallas fans look at his draft position rather than performance.
what performance? 15 points in 43 games in the NHL? 17 points in 55 games on the year? not good enough.

Gunnarsson put up poor point totals in the SEL. It's going to take more than 1/2 a season to convince anyone that this guy is worth discussing in the same sentence as Neal.

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07-16-2010, 03:23 PM
  #49
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what performance? 15 points in 43 games in the NHL? 17 points in 55 games on the year? not good enough.

Gunnarsson put up poor point totals in the SEL. It's going to take more than 1/2 a season to convince anyone that this guy is worth discussing in the same sentence as Neal.
30 point pace for a rookie isn't bad....but that's not what makes Gunnarsson so valuable. It's the fact that he was our 2nd best defensive defenceman this year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo'sShow09 View Post
It's debatable whether or not he was "better" than Hjalmarsson, don't pass it off as a fact. Also that's silly logic to think that Hjalmarsson is now "worth" 3.5 million. There were so many factors in that decision like the compensation back to Chicago, a price range that they felt they could 'steal' him away from Chicago, SJ's lack of depth on the blue-line, etc. Just because he was offered that doesn't make him "worth" that. To me that's just a faulty syllogism. Gunnarsson = Hjalmsson and Hjalmsson makes roughly what Neal want's therefore Gunnarsson = Neal. It's faulty.

You could argue it is a good trade. You keep bringing up the dollars (which is fair) but this is still a team that will try to do what's best for the club. Saving a few bucks this season just for the sake of it isn't going to happen. I see your logic, but to me you're just trying to rationalize it with filling in the blanks to make it work. Looking at it from the big picture it's just not there.
He is better than Hjalmarsson was a year ago....even Hawks fans will concede that. In his first year, he put up decent offensive numbers and was often the Leafs most reliable defenceman over all of the big names on the team. As for Hjalmarsson's contract, most around the league will agree that's a fair price. He's a solid #3/4 guy.

Saving close to $3m is more than "a few bucks"; but this is about more than salary. Gunnarsson is the exact type of defenceman the Stars need to add to the mix. A young guy with very solid proven play at the NHL level, and loads more potential. They've got an abundance of LWs and a shortage of defenceman. If you can make the slight downgrade and pick up a couple more prospects to improve the rebuild so that they can make better use of Morrow, Richards, Eriksson's great contract, and maybe Ribeiro; it's a good deal.

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Old
07-16-2010, 03:26 PM
  #50
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how about;

Mikus
riemer
d'amigo
3rd rounder 2011
(possibly add alex berry)

for Neal

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