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what are some prospects compared to?

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Old
07-18-2010, 07:42 PM
  #51
ChokeOnOil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
Oh, brother.

Can you think of perhaps a few reasons why he doesn't play like Forsberg?

Or is this just a huge exercise in confirmation bias?




You will want to rethink that suggestion to me, I'm sure. Context is precisely what you're lacking.



It would be like "comparing" any of these guys to Gretzky... because they both skate and use a stick to shoot the puck. All the while ignoring the obvious: the dissimilarities to Gretzky greatly outweigh the similarities.

Give that some thought.
Looking forward to a good debate.

The point of an comparison of style differs from a projection, too me anyway, in these ways:

- A projection of a player's upside using another player comments on a players talent. So in the example I've been using to date, I'd compare Colborne's upside in point producing to a Mikko Koviu. When I suggest something like this, I'm suggesting not that the player has a style of Koviu, but that he will, in his career, most likely produce point totals similar in his prime potential. He's a playmaker, as Koviu is, so that's a good production projection for Joe's goals to assists ratio.

- A comparison is used to bring to life a comparison to a player. To give the person who was questioning you a small idea of the way the player plays. Joe Colborne, although having the same point production as a Mikko Koviu, achieve's his points in a different way entirely then Koviu. Therefore, despite the likely comparison in point totals, he's not an ideal comparison in style. Enter: Joe Thornton. Although Colborne likely will never achieve any of the success Joe Thornton has, he does play the way Thornton does. Therefore is a good NHL comparison of him.

- When it comes to Omark, of course difference are there between him and Forsberg. That doesn't change the fact that, even though he will never be as good as Forsberg, he plays the game like him more then he does anyone else. If I wanted to give a point projection for Omark, I would never say Forsberg, instead I would say Maxim Afinogenov. He, however, plays nothing like Maxim Afinogenov (of the last few years, not his prime), so if someone was asking for a playing style/comparison, I wouldn't say Afinogenov; I'd say Forsberg or, if needed, "A very poor man's Forsberg" because that gives a better image of the way the player plays. Of course there are many difference in the two players' gameplay, but there are more difference to Omark Vs. Any other well known player. So therefore, I'd use Forsberg to give an idea.

I suppose there may be some people that believe that Jordan Eberle will have a Joe Mullen like career, but based on the things I've read most would project him as a 2nd line player, which wouldn't correspond with the bias you're trying to point out in this thread.

I have another way of... showing my point if this didn't make much sense, just let me know.


Last edited by ChokeOnOil: 07-19-2010 at 03:32 AM.
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Old
07-18-2010, 07:43 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Burnt Biscuits View Post
MPS- Afinogenov with better puck protection skills, more coachable, and a better work ethic

Linus Omark- If Forsberg and Samsonov made a baby

Theo Peckham- Sean Brown, with a better first pass

Devan Dubnyk- Poor man's Sean Burke

Taylor Hall- Glenn Anderson
this

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Old
07-18-2010, 10:32 PM
  #53
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Omark is closer to Forsberg then Samsanov in terms of style.

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Old
07-19-2010, 02:37 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by ChokeOnOil View Post
Looking forward to a good debate.

The point of an comparison of style differs from a projection
I will agree with this, just because a guy plays a certain style of game doesn't mean that he's anywhere near as good as the other player who plays a similar style with much superior results. That said in reading the original post it was a generic "who compares to who" so it left the potential discussion wide open IMO.

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07-19-2010, 03:42 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
I will agree with this, just because a guy plays a certain style of game doesn't mean that he's anywhere near as good as the other player who plays a similar style with much superior results. That said in reading the original post it was a generic "who compares to who" so it left the potential discussion wide open IMO.
Yes, but we can compare our prospects with anything -- other hockey players, movie stars, Fortune 500 CEOs, varieties of ice cream, animals -- but where exactly does it get us unless we're making reasonable comparisons? Does it make sense to compare all of our prospects (many of whom people have never seen yet) to top-end NHLers? Without any sense of nuance or even thought to their potential faults?

Or do we continue to say we have the next St. Louis and Datsyuk -- and those are just our 4th rounders?

If Eberle was a colour, what colour would he be?

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Old
07-19-2010, 05:58 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
There's a difference between a prospect aspiring to be like a HHOFer and playing similarly to a HHOFer. Basically, if you compare one of our prospects to a HHOFer, I would expect that to be the general consensus for their upside in the hockey community, and for them to be putting up mondo stats.

Neither of those hold here.

Instead, this thread sports higher levels of delusion than a HorCult wine & cheese mixer.
In general, I am not a big fan of these sort of comparison threads. Particularly, if the comparisons are not placed in context. But I do think we all do this whether we admit it or not.

Early on in the Hall/Seguin debate I stated that Hall reminded me of Anderson. In this respect I meant that in Hall I see a game predicated on speed and an absolute fearlessness that he shared with Anderson, particularly in his drive to get to the net. So while there are most certainly many differences in their games, this comparison gives a context to how I view Hall as a player.

Anderson is a HHOF'er. I would be thrilled if Hall turns out to be good enough to be mentioned for the HHOF, but would never expect this from any prospect, regardless of how hyped they might be.

Similarly when someone mentions Eberle-Mullen, I understand what they are getting at. Eberle has shown the ability to put the puck in the net, but does so more by getting to the right place. He's not a flashy guy in the style of a Kovalchuk or Ovechkin, or even Stamkos. As such he is rather understated given what he has accomplished to date. In this respect, he is similar to Mullen. And of course, Mullen was smaller than the norm. While Eberle does seem to be on a bit of a growth spurt, he is no hulk. But of course there are also differences. Certainly Mullen was an excellent skater and was perhaps more physical than Eberle will ever be. Again, expecting Eberle to be anywhere as accomplished as Joey Mullen is putting the bar extremely high. But I don't think that saying Eberle brings back thoughts of a guy like Mullen is in anyway out of line.

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Old
07-19-2010, 06:27 AM
  #57
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This is style... not potential.

Jordan Eberle: Luc Robitaille. Not great speed but a quick stick and scores tons of goals inside the slot.

Magnus Pääjärvi-Svensson: Marian Hossa. Speed, skill and hard work.

Taylor Hall: Doug Gilmour. Reckless, skilled and get´s better in playoff-situations.

Linus Omark: Peter Forsberg (when Linus moves his feet). Great playmaking skills and balance. Hard to knock of the puck.

Teemu Hartikainen: Johan Franzén. Strong goalscorer although he´s not that fast.

Anton Lander: Rod Brind´Amour. Two-way center that can produce offense. Great leadership.

Toni Rajala: Marty Murray. Small and skilled but not that fast.

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Old
07-19-2010, 12:04 PM
  #58
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Anton Lander: Henrik Zetterberg without the flair.

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Old
07-19-2010, 12:31 PM
  #59
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Jordan Eberle - Lucky Luc

Magnus Paajarvi-Svensson - Hemsky+

Jeff Petry- Gilbert+

Talyor Hall - Messier-

Linus Omark - Gagner+

Alex Plante - Brewer-

Theo Peckham - Greene -

Taylor Chorney - MAB-

Anton Lander - Horcoff-

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Old
07-19-2010, 01:45 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
Yes, but we can compare our prospects with anything -- other hockey players, movie stars, Fortune 500 CEOs, varieties of ice cream, animals -- but where exactly does it get us unless we're making reasonable comparisons? Does it make sense to compare all of our prospects (many of whom people have never seen yet) to top-end NHLers? Without any sense of nuance or even thought to their potential faults?

Or do we continue to say we have the next St. Louis and Datsyuk -- and those are just our 4th rounders?

If Eberle was a colour, what colour would he be?
Once again, in both these cases, you're confusing projections with style comparisons. Explained it all in my last post.

He'd probably be a wheaty brown.

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Old
07-19-2010, 03:21 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by ChokeOnOil View Post
Once again, in both these cases, you're confusing projections with style comparisons. Explained it all in my last post.

He'd probably be a wheaty brown.
You're only comparing the parts of their style you want to see. You're not noticing that these players have more differences in style with the people to whom you're comparing them.

An honest comparison would compare just about every prospect in our system -- with the exceptions of the likes of Hall, and perhaps Eberle and Paajarvi -- with similar players who are 2nd or 3rd liners in the NHL (i.e. players who have weaknesses).

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07-19-2010, 03:24 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RollingStone View Post
[B]

Jeff Petry

Style: Alexei Semenov
Potential: Jan Hejda - cerebral 4th defenseman.
Didn't realize Semenov had a style, care to explain what it is because, and maybe my memory doesn't serve me right but, he was not that unique of a player to have a style and far from cerebral.

I still remember Scott Thorton pummeling him.

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07-19-2010, 03:26 PM
  #63
ChokeOnOil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
You're only comparing the parts of their style you want to see. You're not noticing that these players have more differences in style with the people to whom you're comparing them.

An honest comparison would compare just about every prospect in our system -- with the exceptions of the likes of Hall, and perhaps Eberle and Paajarvi -- with similar players who are 2nd or 3rd liners in the NHL (i.e. players who have weaknesses).
Hmm... see going by your argument earlier that would be biased because now, apparently, according to you, if we were to do that we'd think that every prospect in our system will be a 2nd or 3rd line NHL player. AKA, we'd be biased. Which was your main issue with the thread in the first place, wasn't it?

I agree with what you said above, but it seems to me you've tweaked your argument from when you first joined into the thread. I've been wrong before though.

EDIT: Further more, why would I compare a guy like Omark, or Rajala, in STYLE, to third liners, if they don't play like third liners?

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07-19-2010, 03:31 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
comment personally on his potential
This is the part in your arguments I take issue in. You assume we're making comments on potential, instead of playing style. That is wrong and not the point of this thread, or what anyone was trying to achieve.

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07-19-2010, 03:37 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
There's a difference between a prospect aspiring to be like a HHOFer and playing similarly to a HHOFer. Basically, if you compare one of our prospects to a HHOFer, I would expect that to be the general consensus for their upside in the hockey community, and for them to be putting up mondo stats.

Neither of those hold here.

Instead, this thread sports higher levels of delusion than a HorCult wine & cheese mixer.
I don't often agree with you but you may be on to something here.

This thread is redonkulous.

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Old
07-19-2010, 05:20 PM
  #66
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normally im a reader, not a writer but i fell compelled to comment on this one. maybe because im getting a little sick of the pissing contests that keep popping up in EVERY thread, and maybe because theres no hockey and im bored like everyone else.....

using marquee players to compare/rate/transpose/whatever with our prospects is the best way to differentiate them from the crowd, and to give them identity. when someone asks for a suggestion as to "who does so-and-so play like" its logical to use a person whos traits stand out.

obviously the best players are the ones who do their job better than the other guys which is to suggest that they do it differently thus having more observable talents, and therefore making them the best candidates for comparing our prospects skillsets.

i can see why some posters here can get frustrated with the prospect=superstar comparo's, and in no way do i agree with the unrealistic stuff but to jump all over each other because the topic lacked context? sheesh....how specific do we need to be in order to stay diplomatic enough to stay on topic?

and really, were all excited about the upside of our most talented. is it so wrong to say omark has a similar playing style to forsberg? mps to hossa? nobody can say how good these guys are going to be until we see them, i think everyone realizes that.

whats the point of comparing the tallents of a prospect that everyone on here knows everything about, right down to what they eat for breakfast, to an unknown plugger merley for the sake of not wanting to be overenthusiastic about point production?

clearly the madness is setting in....

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Old
07-19-2010, 07:53 PM
  #67
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"playing with reckless abandonment"
"exciting style"
"Mr. Clutch"
"Playoff type"
"Blazing speed"
"doing whatever it took to score a goal"

They could be describing Hall in the first 40 seconds.

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Old
07-19-2010, 08:28 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChokeOnOil View Post
This is the part in your arguments I take issue in. You assume we're making comments on potential, instead of playing style. That is wrong and not the point of this thread, or what anyone was trying to achieve.
If I could weigh in I think the problem is its unclear from the OP what the point of a thread like this is.

Its old school messageboard thinking here but quality in = quality out.

Compose a thread like this lacking any OP effort and thought and the result is usually arguing and conjecture about nothing. Because the OP set the course for nothing.

I know its summer and theres nothing to talk about but theres really nothing contained in the OP here to direct a reasonable thread.

Anybody saying this is not what the thread was about seems to be reading between the lines a lot with fanciful licence. This OP fairly invited any nature of response by being incredibly vague.

What I refer to as a No content threadstart.

Guess what it usually leads to?

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07-19-2010, 09:03 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
If I could weigh in I think the problem is its unclear from the OP what the point of a thread like this is.

Its old school messageboard thinking here but quality in = quality out.

Compose a thread like this lacking any OP effort and thought and the result is usually arguing and conjecture about nothing. Because the OP set the course for nothing.

I know its summer and theres nothing to talk about but theres really nothing contained in the OP here to direct a reasonable thread.

Anybody saying this is not what the thread was about seems to be reading between the lines a lot with fanciful licence. This OP fairly invited any nature of response by being incredibly vague.

What I refer to as a No content threadstart.

Guess what it usually leads to?
I guess I really can't disagree with that.

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Old
07-19-2010, 10:01 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheatking View Post


"playing with reckless abandonment"
"exciting style"
"Mr. Clutch"
"Playoff type"
"Blazing speed"
"doing whatever it took to score a goal"

They could be describing Hall in the first 40 seconds.
This is bang on!

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Old
07-19-2010, 11:17 PM
  #71
bucktown
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Originally Posted by ChokeOnOil View Post
I guess I really can't disagree with that.
me neither

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Old
07-20-2010, 04:36 AM
  #72
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Magnus Paajarvi-Svensson - Erik Cole

Jeff Petry - Ryan Whitney / Tom Gilbert

Taylor Hall - Glenn Anderson with a bit of Messier

Theo Peckham - Jim Vandemeer (I kid!)

Taylor Chorney - JM Liles

Anton Lander - S.Pahlsson

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