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Old
07-18-2010, 11:31 PM
  #1
GCM
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VAN - NYI or VAN - CAR

I'm posting this here because for some reason unknown to me I cannot post threads in the Trade Rumors forum. Considering the people that are allowed to post there, this is puzzling. But I digress:



Zenon Konopka
Milan Jurcina


Kevin Bieksa
Andrew Alberts

For Canucks: They only take back ~$0.6M in salary and receive a cheap 4th liner that is a big (6', 211lbs) energy guy that throws his body around (109 hits) and is apparently a fan favorite type of player (source: TBL fans opinions). They also receive Milan Jurcina. A nice bottom pairing cheap defenceman to replace Kevin Bieksa. Alberts clearly didn't work out for the Canucks and though he showed some promise towards the end with the addition of Hammer and Ballard he is now the log that's jamming the Canucks D and is being shipped out for that reason.

A nice note in this is Bieksa is traded far, far away, for minimal interactions in the future. Bieksa will most likely do well in the East.


For the Isles: They trade some spare part role players for a top 4 defenseman. A solid one at that. Lots of teams are interested in Bieksa for a reason. They also inch up closer to the salary floor while still receiving a good value and the best player in the trade. They also receive Alberts who plays better in the East and is very physical when he plays there (222 hits in the NHL last season).



Or, if that doesn't float your boat:


Tom Kostopoulos
CAR 3rd 2011


Kevin Bieksa

For Canucks: Canucks only take ~$0.9M back in salary. Tom Kostopoulos is a PK specialist, he's also an energy guy that throws his body around (160 hits) and he's relatively big also (6', 204lbs). They also get a 3rd round pick from Carolina which should at least be in the 60-75 pick range to even of the value.

For Canes: Kevin Bieksa is a top 4 defenseman and in Carolina he'll probably end up on the top pairing with Pitkanen. He's a good puck mover. I had originally had Carolina giving up a 2nd in this trade but chose to make it a 3rd because Bieksa only has one year left on his contract.




What do you all think? I like the first deal better because we get cheap roster role players and have more than enough $ space to sign Raymond. The second deal is good because it'll be a high 3rd and we'll get some much needed help on the penalty kill, especially with RyJo gone. Sinco TomKo is a RWer he'll probably push Oreskovich down to Manitoba but Vik could probably use the time in the AHL to continue developing.

However with Konopka, he can center the 4th line in between Glass and Oreskovich.

This is what I imagine the team looking like afterward if the NYI trade happens:


FORWARDS
Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Mikael Samuelsson ($2.500m)
Mason Raymond ($2.500m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Alexandre Burrows ($2.000m)
Jannik Hansen ($0.550m) / Manny Malhotra ($2.500m) / Cody Hodgson ($1.666m)
Tanner Glass ($0.625m) / Zenon Konopka ($0.600m) / Victor Oreskovich ($0.575m)
Jeff Tambellini ($0.500m)

DEFENSEMEN
Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Keith Ballard ($4.200m)
Alexander Edler ($3.250m) / Sami Salo ($3.500m)
Shane O'Brien ($1.600m) / Christian Ehrhoff ($3.100m)
Aaron Rome ($0.750m) / Milan Jurcina ($1.000m)

GOALTENDERS
Roberto Luongo ($5.333m) /Cory Schneider ($0.900m)

CARRY-OVER BONUS PENALTY: $90,000

SALARY CAP: $59,400,000; CAP PAYROLL: $59,440,000; BONUSES: $850,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $810,000


It's worth noting that if Hodgson hits his bonus, we'll be 40,000 over the cap and that will carry over. But that's not really a big deal. It is a tight squeeze on the cap though, but this is a 23 man roster.

Most likely Tambellini and one of O'Brien/Jurcina will sit in the press box and Rome will be playing for the Moose. So Rome won't count against the cap unless we suffer an injury.

Now you might point out "Why are we trading for Jurcina and then sitting him in the press box?". Well that's because one, we need depth on D because Sami Salo is on our roster. And two, Sami Salo is in his final year. He will most likely not be resigned by the Canucks. His contract money ($3.5M) will be used to secure Ehrhoff to a sign an extension at around 4-4.5M long term. That leaves a spot open on the roster and Jurcina will fill that spot.




Right, any questions, concerns, comments or issues?

[Oh and if a mod could either explain why I can't post this in the Trade Rumor forum or be kind and move this into that forum that would be great, thanks =D ]

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Old
07-18-2010, 11:54 PM
  #2
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the first deal isn't gonna happen, because nyi just recently signed those guys to contracts... the 2nd deal is okay but i rather get a third line winger, a guy with some hands, grit. i vote paul gausted!

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07-19-2010, 12:39 AM
  #3
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alberts = Jurcina

Bieksa > Konopka (aka improved Hordichuk)

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07-19-2010, 01:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David71 View Post
the first deal isn't gonna happen, because nyi just recently signed those guys to contracts... the 2nd deal is okay but i rather get a third line winger, a guy with some hands, grit. i vote paul gausted!
sign-and-trades are rare, but so are top 4 defenseman @ $3.75 per. They're getting the best player in the deal, I think they'd be willing to part with those two. If they really liked them they'd have longer terms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by me2 View Post
alberts = Jurcina

Bieksa > Konopka (aka improved Hordichuk)
Jurcina > Alberts. Plus Jurcina comes 50G cheaper. Not truly significant but noticeable none-the-less, moreso when you're as tight to the cap as we are.


As for the Bieksa Konopka comparison, you do know that this is a salary dump at the end of the day, right?

Konopka is loads better than Hordichuk. First of all, he plays center. Secondly, he's actually big. On top of that he hits, a lot, and certainly more than Hordichuk. Hordichuk is a wannabe tough guy. He's also faster than Hordichuk. And most importantly, Konopka is significantly cheaper.


Bieksa may be better than Konopka (regardless of apples/oranges comparison) but he sure as hell isn't better or more valuable to this team than Mason Raymond.

An important asset coming back to Vancouver is the space to sign Raymond to a fair deal.

I'd rather have Konopka, Jurcina & Raymond than Bieksa, any day.

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07-19-2010, 01:40 AM
  #5
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I wouldnt mind the second deal.

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07-19-2010, 02:01 AM
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NYI did just sign Konopka, doubt they trade a recent UFA.

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Old
07-19-2010, 02:02 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCM View Post
sign-and-trades are rare, but so are top 4 defenseman @ $3.75 per. They're getting the best player in the deal, I think they'd be willing to part with those two. If they really liked them they'd have longer terms.



Jurcina > Alberts. Plus Jurcina comes 50G cheaper. Not truly significant but noticeable none-the-less, moreso when you're as tight to the cap as we are.


As for the Bieksa Konopka comparison, you do know that this is a salary dump at the end of the day, right?

Konopka is loads better than Hordichuk. First of all, he plays center. Secondly, he's actually big. On top of that he hits, a lot, and certainly more than Hordichuk. Hordichuk is a wannabe tough guy. He's also faster than Hordichuk. And most importantly, Konopka is significantly cheaper.


Bieksa may be better than Konopka (regardless of apples/oranges comparison) but he sure as hell isn't better or more valuable to this team than Mason Raymond.

An important asset coming back to Vancouver is the space to sign Raymond to a fair deal.

I'd rather have Konopka, Jurcina & Raymond than Bieksa, any day.
What use would we have in another defenseman anyways? Hell, I'm looking to give up Alberts for nothing (waive him or something) and replacing him with nothing and we should be in decent shape. Let alone trade for one unless O'Brien's gone as well.

I don't think you have to worry about being desperate enough to unload Bieksa for whatever crap we see just because we need to sign Raymond, either. If it comes down to the last minute and we need to unload him for just a pick, we'll do that-- right now we should be looking for decent value coming back, and treating it like Bieksa for Raymond + this + that is simply being far too generous to the other team who isn't even giving up Raymond. The argument you brought up doesn't make a whole lot of sense. We're signing Raymond regardless.

That said, I don't see anything wrong with the second deal either.

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07-19-2010, 02:06 AM
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not a fan of Konopka at all, so i would say no thanks to the Islanders. the canes deal looks more like getting rid of most of Bieksa's salary to create room for Raymond's new deal.

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07-19-2010, 02:07 AM
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tom kostopolous is quite possibly the worst fighter in the national hockey league

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07-19-2010, 02:47 AM
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The NYI deal is far far off... no way should we even consider it. First a recently signed UFA = probably someone MG doesn't want or wasn't interested in and you don't just sign and trade without a very good reason. Otherwise UFA will not go there. Not to mention the value isn't close... Bieksa is worth more than an energy player/hitter. Not to mention we don't really need another bottom pairing dman as we still have SOB. Basically value is way off.

The 2nd deal is a bit better and much closer in terms of value (could debate the 3rd being changed to a 2nd or a prospect equal to a 2nd). Wouldn't be opposed to it but probably would want more return. Tom Kostopoulos is a pretty good player but he isn't a solid FO man and that might be something that MG doesn't like (more so when you consider how good our top 3 looks like next year).

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07-19-2010, 02:54 AM
  #11
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I had a feeling the NYI value might be off.


As for the CAR, how about a conditional pick instead. If Bieksa signs an extension with CAR it's a 2nd, if he doesn't, it's a 3rd. Does that make it sound better?


I looked at all the team's in the league and these are two of the decent amount of teams that have

a) the space for bieksa
b) the need for bieksa
c) some parts we could actually use

There's always the option of trading Bieksa solely for picks and then signing a free agent like Eric Belanger.

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07-20-2010, 02:46 AM
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Konopka doesn't kill penalties. He fights but isn't great at it. He's better than Hordichuk. Same weight, hordichuk is 1 inch taller. Both seem to be well liked. If Konopka has better skills but he hasn't shown them, maybe 2 points a season better. Both 29.

Konopka is Hordichuk with faceoff ability. I'd rather we look for a quality 4th line centre than a middleweight.
Quote:
I'd rather have Konopka, Jurcina & Raymond than Bieksa, any day.
I'd rather have Raymond, a good bottom 6 centre/winger and 2nd rnd pick.

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07-20-2010, 06:01 AM
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denkiteki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCM View Post
I had a feeling the NYI value might be off.


As for the CAR, how about a conditional pick instead. If Bieksa signs an extension with CAR it's a 2nd, if he doesn't, it's a 3rd. Does that make it sound better?


I looked at all the team's in the league and these are two of the decent amount of teams that have

a) the space for bieksa
b) the need for bieksa
c) some parts we could actually use

There's always the option of trading Bieksa solely for picks and then signing a free agent like Eric Belanger.
Belanger will likely cost us too much (2mil+). There's no reason he should make much less than Malhotra and realistically i doubt he wants to play on the 4th line (altho we could just move someone to the wing if needed).

As for the conditional pick... even without the condition, the value is at best "fair". We are NOT going to trade Bieksa for fair value because there will likely be a bidding war for him. Basically that's a trade i doubt 'nucks fan will have problems with (if the 2nd round pick wasn't conditional) but its probably not the best trade we'll get.

I actually made a list of 11 teams that could be interested in Bieksa in the Bieksa rumor thread by looking at cap space + roster. There's way more than 2 and NYI is NOT on the list because

NYI is not a playoff team, they are rebuilding. You don't generally give up assets when you're rebuilding for a player that will be a UFA in 1 year (and honestly NYI has little shot at signing him since they will likely rebuild for years and Bieksa would want a contender not a pretender).

Car is debatable but realistically they look more like they are headed to rebuilding than competing as well.

You don't need to look at teams with > 12m cap space as many teams with 5-6m are interested too (e.g. Sharks) since they are all missing a top 4 PMD still.

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07-20-2010, 02:46 PM
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I like the first one, Zeon can fight and win face off's. Plus at every level he has shown he can dish the puck well except for the nhl but maybe he can do it here.

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Old
07-20-2010, 02:58 PM
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I think it's safe to say that if Gillis wanted Konopka, he would have gotten him. He obviously targeted Perrault and scooped him up early.

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07-20-2010, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by me2 View Post
Konopka doesn't kill penalties. He fights but isn't great at it. He's better than Hordichuk. Same weight, hordichuk is 1 inch taller. Both seem to be well liked. If Konopka has better skills but he hasn't shown them, maybe 2 points a season better. Both 29.

Konopka is Hordichuk with faceoff ability. I'd rather we look for a quality 4th line centre than a middleweight.


I'd rather have Raymond, a good bottom 6 centre/winger and 2nd rnd pick.
Except when has Hordichuk last fought successfully? And what of Hordi's play without the puck?

Points is irrelevant I think because we're not looking for Hordichuk to be tertiary scoring and same goes for Konopoka. We want them to hit. I haven't seen Hordichuk on any "crazy" hit highlights. He's a lot like Bernier in that he has the size but he doesn't play to it. He's a softie if you ask me and horrible at his role.

Quote:
Originally Posted by denkiteki View Post
Belanger will likely cost us too much (2mil+). There's no reason he should make much less than Malhotra and realistically i doubt he wants to play on the 4th line (altho we could just move someone to the wing if needed).

As for the conditional pick... even without the condition, the value is at best "fair". We are NOT going to trade Bieksa for fair value because there will likely be a bidding war for him. Basically that's a trade i doubt 'nucks fan will have problems with (if the 2nd round pick wasn't conditional) but its probably not the best trade we'll get.

I actually made a list of 11 teams that could be interested in Bieksa in the Bieksa rumor thread by looking at cap space + roster. There's way more than 2 and NYI is NOT on the list because

NYI is not a playoff team, they are rebuilding. You don't generally give up assets when you're rebuilding for a player that will be a UFA in 1 year (and honestly NYI has little shot at signing him since they will likely rebuild for years and Bieksa would want a contender not a pretender).

Car is debatable but realistically they look more like they are headed to rebuilding than competing as well.

You don't need to look at teams with > 12m cap space as many teams with 5-6m are interested too (e.g. Sharks) since they are all missing a top 4 PMD still.
Can you post the list here? I hate those hundred page topics on this site and I don't like going through it.

Quote:
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I think it's safe to say that if Gillis wanted Konopka, he would have gotten him. He obviously targeted Perrault and scooped him up early.
Very true. I hope Perrault pans out.

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07-20-2010, 05:21 PM
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Except when has Hordichuk last fought successfully? And what of Hordi's play without the puck?

Points is irrelevant I think because we're not looking for Hordichuk to be tertiary scoring and same goes for Konopoka. We want them to hit. I haven't seen Hordichuk on any "crazy" hit highlights. He's a lot like Bernier in that he has the size but he doesn't play to it. He's a softie if you ask me and horrible at his role.
What is his role exactly. I completely disagree with you but I want you to give me some reasons.

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07-20-2010, 05:27 PM
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What is his role exactly. I completely disagree with you but I want you to give me some reasons.
His role is to be a big body player and hit for us. He has a decent amount of hits but they're usually namby pamby ones if you've ever watched the games. He never has that game-changing momentum hit.

his forechecking is good but his backchecking is horrible. He finished with a team worst -7.

And when he fights, he usually loses.

Tanner Glass is better in pretty much every way.

Glass actually fulfils his role: An energy player that can deliver a wake-up hit or win a fight to get the team going. He also has some nice hands to boot (and a mullet).

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07-20-2010, 05:45 PM
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Frans Nielsen!

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07-21-2010, 02:24 AM
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Washington would be a viable trade partner also:



D Kevin Bieksa



F Matt Bradley
F Anton Gustafsson



Only crappy thing is I doubt WSH does this because it's not like they're hurting on D by any means. And they also have both Carlson and Alzner coming up most likely. So it doesn't fill a need for them.

Would be nice to have Bradley's physicality and Gustafsson is the son of the Swedish National Team Coach Bengt-Ake.

Canucks do well with Swedish centers =P. Having him and Rodin in the system would be awesome.

But we'd have to keep him sheltered from Samuelsson's wrath.

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07-21-2010, 04:41 AM
  #21
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I wouldn't do the first deal. Kevin Bieksa has more value than a bottom pairing defenceman and a fourth line center. Kenopka isn't really that good and we don't need jurcina.

Second one I would reluctantly accept the second deal because Kostopolous is a solid third liner and we get a third rounder as well.

D.Sedin-H.Sedin-Samuelsson
Raymond-Kesler-Schroeder
Hodgson-Malhotra-Burrows
Hansen-Perreault-Kostopolous
Glass, Rypien, Oroskovich

Not bad.


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07-21-2010, 11:25 AM
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The two deals in the OP are garbage.

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07-21-2010, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCM View Post
Washington would be a viable trade partner also:



D Kevin Bieksa



F Matt Bradley
F Anton Gustafsson



Only crappy thing is I doubt WSH does this because it's not like they're hurting on D by any means. And they also have both Carlson and Alzner coming up most likely. So it doesn't fill a need for them.

Would be nice to have Bradley's physicality and Gustafsson is the son of the Swedish National Team Coach Bengt-Ake.
Canucks do well with Swedish centers =P. Having him and Rodin in the system would be awesome.

But we'd have to keep him sheltered from Samuelsson's wrath.
RIFT!!

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07-21-2010, 06:28 PM
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RIFT!!
MAY DAY MAY DAY ABORT ABORT ABOOOOOOOOORT

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07-21-2010, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCM View Post
His role is to be a big body player and hit for us. He has a decent amount of hits but they're usually namby pamby ones if you've ever watched the games. He never has that game-changing momentum hit.

his forechecking is good but his backchecking is horrible. He finished with a team worst -7.

And when he fights, he usually loses.

Tanner Glass is better in pretty much every way.

Glass actually fulfils his role: An energy player that can deliver a wake-up hit or win a fight to get the team going. He also has some nice hands to boot (and a mullet).
Is the role of the policeman gone in the NHL? An enforcers role is far more than to hit and fight. They are a deterrent. Do you want Glass taking on a Boogard? How about Rypien? How will he do? It's not only about winning fights, it's about deterring guys from taking runs at your stars.

Glass doesn't scare anyone. Guys like Avery and Tucker aren't going to square off with Rypper. Rypien is great at squaring off and beating guys technically, but he doesn't scare anyone into thinking he'll actually do anything to hurt them.

Game changing hit:


Sticking up for your stars:


Yes, he didn't deter Boogard from doing anything, but he took him out of the game for 5 minutes. He knows he's gonna likely get beat up, but he does it anyways, cause that's his role.

So many more variables to a enforcer than just hitting and winning fights.

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