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Ilya Kovalchuk to the Devils (17 years @ $6M cap hit) UPDATE: NHL rejects contract

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Old
07-20-2010, 09:15 PM
  #876
NYRJE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panfork View Post
NO REDDEN/DRURY.

DO IT, Gary.
You're right.... I'd better rethink my position on this...LOL

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07-20-2010, 09:15 PM
  #877
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kovy's contract was structured to give him 13.5 in the first two years. Dont know where you guys are getting 6M or 10M from.

suffice it to say, this isnt being rejected because of the 50% rule. Kovy's contract was compliant under all contract rules set out in the cba - 50%, league minimum, league maximum, etc. It is being rejected by the NHL because they feel it is cap circumvention. They, like us, believe it is designed to artificially lower his cap hit and that he doesnt intend to play out the full contract.

I'm not entirely sure the NHL has the right to do this, as I and wetcoaster have already mentioned. The proper mechanism outlined in the CBA would be to accept the contract and then launch an investigation into the cap circumvention, with the option to nullify the contract later.

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07-20-2010, 09:16 PM
  #878
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I'm sure part of this has to do with the fact that Lou almost admitted that's what he was doing. When the Flyers signed Pronger, they claimed all along that they expect Pronger to play out the contract. Lou sounds like he doesn't think that, and is circumventing the cap because it doesn't say that he can't.

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07-20-2010, 09:16 PM
  #879
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
The NHL doesn't have the right to arbitrarily draw the line as to what cap circumvention is. They have to be able to back up the decision with hard evidence.
The NHL can do what it wants in regards to the NHL. Remember the coyotes/JB standoff? What will be interesting is what the Devils do about this. I mean the Hossa deal was not as long but it's almost the same situation. I would think whats good for the Hawks is good for the Devils.

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07-20-2010, 09:16 PM
  #880
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Originally Posted by Stuy View Post
CBA 26.10: The commissioner's authority to investigate a possible circumvention relating to an SPC shall in no way be limited by the fact such SPC was approved or registered by Central Registry.
Stuy's becoming my favorite poster hah

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07-20-2010, 09:16 PM
  #881
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So you can circumvent the cap to some extent but not to another, none which is explained. Only in the NHL.

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07-20-2010, 09:16 PM
  #882
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Originally Posted by hockeydadx2 View Post
Maybe Lou really hated the deal, and behind closed doors asked Bettman to go ahead and reject it. Seems clear that the deal wasn't something he liked doing.
I think you're right. Lou doesn't like this deal that ownership is forcing on the team, and wants it to go away. Kovy was kept in Atlanta by the owners too. It wasn't Rick Dudley offering Kovy 102 million, it was the wacky owners (who also just gave Joe Johnson of the Hawks 20m a year)!

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07-20-2010, 09:16 PM
  #883
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Great post man, this man knows
yea except luongo and hossa last 5 years are when they are 37-42 kvoys last 5 years are 39-44

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07-20-2010, 09:17 PM
  #884
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Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
You have insides sources? You know this? Or are you talking out your ass?
Why not fix it before free agency? After the Hossa and Pronger deals last offseason?

All of a sudden the reject a deal? I hate how the NHL makes up rules as they go it seems. I do believe they have big market bias.

The Devils did nothing different from what the Flyers did with Pronger.

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07-20-2010, 09:17 PM
  #885
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Originally Posted by danishh View Post
league minimum salary should have no effect on the NHL accepting a contract. If anyone had a problem with a player potentially being paid well under league minimum, it would be the NHLPA, not the NHL. The NHL is interjecting here because they believe this contract is cap circumvention. Simple as that.
Wouldn't the NHL want to stop this entire situation from happening? Instead of allowing a contract they know the NHLPA is going to rake them over the coals for further down the road, just nix it now and save the trouble.

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07-20-2010, 09:17 PM
  #886
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Maybe it was the six million he's being paid in the first two years and then the dramatic JUMP in salary to $11.5 million. The $6 million allows the very low salaries at the end of the contract.

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07-20-2010, 09:17 PM
  #887
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Originally Posted by IcedMaidenDeth View Post
I'm not going to deny that this is cap circumvention, but Hossa, Franzen, and Zetterberg all have very low salaries, compared to earlier in the contract, at the "retirement" years of their contracts and they were allowed. The NHL should've stopped these deals with the Hossa deal and not now, after the precedent has already been set.

Sure, Kovalchuk has a few more low salary years at the end, with a lower than normal hit, but Hossa's was only slightly less blatant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devils Mike View Post
The NHL is a joke. What about Lecavlier's contract, Luongo? Hossa?

The NHL is run by morons.
How did Scott Stevens treat you guys?

Life is tough.

I hope they do more than just reject this deal.

No sympathy for you over here.

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07-20-2010, 09:17 PM
  #888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danishh View Post
kovy's contract was structured to give him 13.5 in the first two years. Dont know where you guys are getting 6M or 10M from.
http://capgeek.com/players/display.php?id=339

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07-20-2010, 09:17 PM
  #889
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Max. 1 year deals, according to the NHL Offices.

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07-20-2010, 09:17 PM
  #890
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Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
Why not fix it before free agency? After the Hossa and Pronger deals last offseason?

All of a sudden the reject a deal? I hate how the NHL makes up rules as they go it seems.

The Devils did nothing different from what the Flyers did with Pronger.
Pronger is a 35+ contract. The Flyers are screwed if he doesn't actually play all of the years.

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07-20-2010, 09:17 PM
  #891
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In this article Lou admits to Cap Circumvention from a post earlier today.
Quote:
While saying the Devils did nothing illegal in signing Ilya Kovalchuk to a 17-year, $102 million contract, general manager Lou Lamoriello admitted that such a deal was bad for the NHL and should be eliminated in the next CBA.

I asked Lamoriello what he would think if someone brought up Kovalchuk’s contract in the next round of CBA negotiations (in two years) and pointed to it as a flaw.

“I might agree,” he said. “But there is nothing that we have done wrong. This is within the rules. This is in the CBA. There are precedents that have been set. But I would agree we shouldn’t have these. But I’m also saying that because it’s legal and this is something that ownership felt comfortable doing for the right reasons.”
http://blogs.northjersey.com/blogs/f..._part_of_nhl1/

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07-20-2010, 09:17 PM
  #892
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
The NHL doesn't have the right to arbitrarily draw the line as to what cap circumvention is. They have to be able to back up the decision with hard evidence.
Not so.

A Circumvention is very broadly defined and catches both the Club (and Club Actors) and Players (and Player Actors). Note the use of the words "intent" and "intention". Also note the "I am just an idiot player" defence does not work nor does "it was all my agent who did this" since the player is deemed to not be an idiot and is responsible for everything his agent does.
Quote:
26.3 Circumventions.

(a) No Club or Club Actor, directly or indirectly, may:

(i) enter into any agreements, promises, undertakings, representations, commitments, inducements, assurances of intent, or understandings of any kind, whether express, implied, oral or written, including without limitation, any SPC, Qualifying Offer, Offer Sheet or other transaction, or (ii) take or fail to take any action whatsoever, if either (i) or (ii) is intended to or has the effect of defeating or Circumventing the provisions of this Agreement or the intention of the parties as reflected by the provisions of this Agreement, including without limitation, provisions with respect to the financial and other reporting obligations of the Clubs and the League, Team Payroll Range, Player Compensation Cost Redistribution System, the Entry Level System and/or Free Agency.
(i) Any act by a Club Actor that, if committed by the Club would constitute a Circumvention, shall be imputed to the Club and shall be deemed to be a Circumvention by the Club.
( b) No Player or Player Actor, directly or indirectly, may: (i) enter into any agreements, promises, undertakings, representations, commitments, inducements, assurances of intent, or understandings of any kind, whether express, implied, oral or written, including without limitation, any SPC, Qualifying Offer, Offer Sheet or other transaction, or (ii) take or fail to take any action whatsoever, if the Player knows or reasonably should have known (measured by the objective standard of the "reasonable Player under the circumstances") that either (i) or (ii) is intended to and has the effect of defeating or Circumventing the provisions of this Agreement or the intention of the parties as reflected by the provisions of this Agreement, including without limitation, provisions with respect to the Team Payroll Range, the Entry Level System and/or Free Agency.

( c) Such knowledge or knowledge imputed under Section 26.3(c)(i) of a Player applies to all references to Players set forth in Sections 26.1, 26.3 and 26.5, i.e., a Player has not engaged in a circumvention unless the Player knew or reasonably should have known that the conduct at issue was intended to have and did have the effect of defeating or Circumventing the provisions of this Agreement or the intention of the parties as reflected by the provisions of this Agreement, including without limitation, provisions with respect to the Team Payroll Range, the Entry Level System, and/or Free Agency.
(i) Any act by a Player Actor that, if committed by the Player would constitute a Circumvention, shall be imputed to the Player and shall be deemed to be a Circumvention by the Player.
A System Arbitrator has a very wide discretion to determine what constitutes a circumvention per the CBA after receiving the report from the Investigator (in this case the Commissioner or his delegate).
Quote:
26.13 ( b) The System Arbitrator may find a Circumvention has occurred based on direct or circumstantial evidence, including without limitation, evidence that an SPC or any provision of an SPC cannot reasonably be explained in the absence of conduct prohibited by this Article 26. The investigation and findings of the Investigator pursuant to Section 26.10 shall be fully admissible in any proceeding before the System Arbitrator under this Section 26.13.
The structure of the contract itself may be evidence of circumvention and the burden of proof would shift to the play/agent and Club to justify it.

This contract would seem to be of that species.

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07-20-2010, 09:17 PM
  #893
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Originally Posted by Gunnar Stahl 30 View Post
the intention of the contract was to lower the cap hit. no way did they actually want to sign pronger until he was 43 at a that much if he even plays
The Flyers have to pay Pronger even if he retires. The cap hit stays on the books even if he retires. It was only a 7 year deal. It takes him to the age of 43.

Kovalchuk comes off the books if he retires. It was a 17 year deal. The next closest contract length I can think of is 12 years. Kovalchuk will be 44 by the end of the deal.

There's no way you can compare the two, they're completely different. Kovalchuk's contract was far more blatant and unrealistic then the Pronger deal or any other deal before this one. Even the Hossa deal was five years shorter and ended at the age of 42.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlappyMcGee View Post
Ridiculous. You can't let other teams break a rule that doesn't exist and then punish us for breaking a rule that doesn't exist too much.
Look at what I wrote above.

Technically, from what I hear, the NHL can't nix a deal because of cap circumvention unless it doesn't follow the rules (so maybe the Devils ****ed up the salary details). IIRC though the NHL can nix a deal if they don't believe the player will fulfill the entirety of the contract. There's no way in hell anyone can believe Kovalchuk will fulfill that whole contract.

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07-20-2010, 09:17 PM
  #894
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I think the NHL realized that the Kovalchuk contract was a whole new level of blatent circumvention.

As others have mentioned, the Hossa and Luongo deals aren't as extreme as the Kovy contract was, and I think it was too much for the league to really accept.

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07-20-2010, 09:18 PM
  #895
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As far as I can tell from reading, the NHL CAN reject the contract because it feels the contract circumvents the cap.

The NHLPA could file a grievance with the league. Edit - it would require a deeper reading that I don't fee like doing, but I believe if the case goes to arbitration that the player could be allowed to play under the contract in question. If someone has the inclination, feel free to let me know how close that statement is to the truth. I'm not sure if that case only works if the contract is accepted first and then goes to arbitration. I really didn't feel like trying to figure it out right now. Forgive me.

My sincere hope would be that the parties get together and hammer this out. They could set a precedent together and avoid having to deal with an arbitrator. Doubtful, but that's my hope.

That said, assuming a grievance is filed, we should end up with more definitive answers by the time this saga is finished.
Basically, how long is too long? What IS circumventing the cap?

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Mitch

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07-20-2010, 09:18 PM
  #896
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
When the Flyers signed Pronger, they claimed all along that they expect Pronger to play out the contract.
I'm sure the Flyers hope he does because Pronger's contract will count against the cap even if he retires.

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07-20-2010, 09:18 PM
  #897
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17 yr contracts for a FA who is 27

That is probably why the league is going after this one (And the overloading of 1st 10 years)

The NHL does not need big market teams throwing 15-17 year deals to every major FA in mid to late 20's that is a star player to circumvent the cap

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07-20-2010, 09:18 PM
  #898
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So is the contract just void and Kovalchuk is a UFA again and it's like nothing ever happened ? or does NJ get a slap on the wrist or some other sort of penalty ? Can we just disqualify them from signing Kovalchuk or offering him another contract ?

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07-20-2010, 09:18 PM
  #899
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Well.. this one is getting interesting....

No doubt the Devils will adjust the contract
but this one will be a preference case.

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07-20-2010, 09:18 PM
  #900
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Originally Posted by MillerFan1 View Post
Who wants to bet that Lou caught wind of the rejection and made that statement today to save face?
That makes much more sense.

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