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Old
07-22-2010, 12:02 PM
  #76
msv957
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Originally Posted by lundy View Post
No. Stop it.

No, for both teams. Pitt is fine as is, and the Rangers aren't a good enough team for the downgrade from Lundqvist to Fleury to be nullified.

I am not so sure about Fluery being a downgrade from Lundqvist... Both are real good goalies... Not much of a difference... Fluery plays on an offensive team so his stats wont be as shiny as Hanks's stats.. Hank played before a trap system under Tom Renney his whole career.... Only last year's team under Torts did the team open it up for about a half of a season and then Torts realized he does not have the horses so he modified the system and went more into a defensive system...

Fluery did win a Stanley Cup and came up big in the playoffs... I know Fluery had a team that could win the Stanley Cup but Fluery did perform and did his job by winning the Stanley Cup... Credit has to be given to Fleury..

Hank is one of the better goalies in the league and a team could win a cup with Hank in goal. He is an important piece to the Rangers right now and his considered a god by the MSG faithful...... But this trade proposal is not bad at all..

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07-22-2010, 12:10 PM
  #77
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I am not so sure about Fluery being a downgrade from Lundqvist... Both are real good goalies... Not much of a difference...
I don't understand how there can possibly this many people saying that. To me as a goalie, it's ridiculous. The difference between the two is huge, as of now. Lundqvist is better by a wide margin.

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07-22-2010, 12:55 PM
  #78
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I don't understand how there can possibly this many people saying that. To me as a goalie, it's ridiculous. The difference between the two is huge, as of now. Lundqvist is better by a wide margin.
Agreed.

But you have to consider that Henrik was clearly outplayed by MAF a few years back in the postseason.

A year before that, Miller also outplayed Henrik.

Both the teams were superior to the Rangers though. Hank or no Hank, we were losing both those series.

But you have to tip your hat and acknowledge who outplayed who when the game was literally, on the line.

As a goalie there isn't a position on the ice I focus on more. MAF probably won't win a Vezina. He doesn't have to though. Ask Cam Ward, or Mike Richter how important regular season achievements are.

Most goalie's in the NHL can win a cup, if they're put in the right enviroment. If Sather can ever put a competent line-up on the ice, maybe Henrik won't have to do it all by himself.

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07-22-2010, 01:16 PM
  #79
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I don't understand how there can possibly this many people saying that. To me as a goalie, it's ridiculous. The difference between the two is huge, as of now. Lundqvist is better by a wide margin.
The difference between MAF and Hank is not huge at all...

Hank would be considered in the echelon of top 5 goalies in the NHL..

MAF would be included in the echelon of top 10 goalies in the NHL....

Not much of a difference at all to me...

MAF won a Stanley cup.. He did what every goalie's job is to do which is to WIN a Stanley cup. He played great in the playoffs when money goalies shine. He was great and endured the intense pressures and won a Stanley Cup... He is a winner...This feat cannot be taken lightly... I know he was behind a team that was capable of winning a cup but MAF shined and was a huge success for the Pens...

Hank is a real good goalie.. but it seems he cannot do anything wrong from the HF members... Whenever he lets in a goal it is NEVER Hanks fault.... It is always the defense's fault, the forwards did not backcheck, Hank was screened, he was beat by an impossible shot to save, Hank had a sore knee, or Hank is tired and overworked and etc and etc...

Don't get me wrong. I am convinced a team can win a cup with Hank in goal.. He is the goods.... but so is MAF and there is not much of a difference...

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07-22-2010, 01:23 PM
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Lundvquist for Staal+Fleury? What a joke. Lundvquist is worth much more then those 2.
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Originally Posted by Dadude2399 View Post
God damn this thread is even worse than the last one. Naive Islander fans...
Lundqvist is waaaay better than Fleury and Staal combined.
Callahan is, as someone has already mentioned, the heart and soul of the Rangers.
Now stop with these stupid trades.
Lundqvist will not be traded.
Haha good then. You keep your overrated goalie with two, count em, TWO second round appearances.

We'll keep our 22 year old 20 goal scoring Selke nominated Stanley cup winning 6'4" 220lb shut down center, and our 25 year old stanley cup winning goalie.

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07-22-2010, 01:30 PM
  #81
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Don't get me wrong. I am convinced a team can win a cup with Hank in goal.. He is the goods.... but so is MAF and there is not much of a difference...
Yes, there is, and it's pretty obvious. And like me (I know that ), you have done nothing to support your argument. A cup is beautiful, but teams win cups, not single players. Fleury was in a good spot at the right time, Lundqvist not. It doesn't change that he is well ahead of Fleury in terms of ability.

We are not talking about amateurs here - every goaltender in the NHL has the abilities to play very well for a certain amount of time, as Michael Leighton and Brian Boucher among others proved again this spring. Fleury was great in the Pens' cup run, but Lundqvist is on a different level and pretty much everyone who is in touch with goaltending, as a scout, goaltending coach or similar, will tell you the same thing. The difference - for the NHL level - is very significant.

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07-22-2010, 01:34 PM
  #82
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Haha good then. You keep your overrated goalie with two, count em, TWO second round appearances.

We'll keep our 22 year old 20 goal scoring Selke nominated Stanley cup winning 6'4" 220lb shut down center, and our 25 year old stanley cup winning goalie.
Alright then.

I refuse to believe people are blind enough to actually think like that...

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07-22-2010, 02:08 PM
  #83
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I don't understand how there can possibly this many people saying that. To me as a goalie, it's ridiculous. The difference between the two is huge, as of now. Lundqvist is better by a wide margin.
I also played goalie, and got to D1 college. I currently coach the position, and seem to think that I may know a little about goaltending. BOTH guys are top tier goalies. Hank is more polished fundamentally, and plays very well within the Rangers system, which has been stated before, is more defensive. MAF is an athletic freak of nature. He moves laterally faster than any goalie I have ever seen, and can stretch and move to pucks that NO other goalie can get to. This works well for the Pens all out offensive system, because the Pens goalies often face odd man breaks and all around great chances off of counter rushes. Bylsma doesn't care if he gives up 3 goals a game, because his plan is to score 5+ goals a game.

If you look back at Fleury's stats from that last full year under Therrien, Fleury's Save% reg season was .925ish and .933 in the playoffs. He can post the eye popping numbers that the rest of the elite goalies in the league can under a defensive system.

Both Goalies are great. Both have different strengths that suit the current system they play in. There isn't that big of a gap if any and MAF is 3 years younger.

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07-22-2010, 02:14 PM
  #84
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Yes, there is, and it's pretty obvious. And like me (I know that ), you have done nothing to support your argument. A cup is beautiful, but teams win cups, not single players. Fleury was in a good spot at the right time, Lundqvist not. It doesn't change that he is well ahead of Fleury in terms of ability.

We are not talking about amateurs here - every goaltender in the NHL has the abilities to play very well for a certain amount of time, as Michael Leighton and Brian Boucher among others proved again this spring. Fleury was great in the Pens' cup run, but Lundqvist is on a different level and pretty much everyone who is in touch with goaltending, as a scout, goaltending coach or similar, will tell you the same thing. The difference - for the NHL level - is very significant.
BTW... love your Avatar... Family Guy is an awesome show....

MAF was drafted first overall so the scouts, GM's and etc must have seen the incredible skills that MAF has.. Also, MAF is what 3-4 years younger than Hank.. So MAF is only getting better and better.... MAF has shown to be a WINNER so this cannot be taken lightly when the pressure is magnified, MAF performed like an ELITE goalie....

As I mentioned.. Hank is the goods and a team can win a cup with Hank just as a team won a cup with MAF... Hank has to show (which I believe he can) that he can endure the pressure of winning 4 rounds of intense playoff pressure and performing at an elite level when it's crunch time in the playoffs... MAF did... Hank did not play well the last game 7 against Washington.. He let in some softies... I know he played great for most of the series but the he did not play great that game 7..

There is not a huge difference between the (2) goalies...

MAF has played behind offensive systems so he wont have the shiny stats. (much like Grant Fuhr back in the day).. Hank has played almost his whole career behind defensive trapping systems under Tom Renney where his stats were Vezina nominated stats.

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07-22-2010, 02:17 PM
  #85
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I remember when Mike Bullard was our captain, before we had Mario. I been a fan through the good times and bad, so don't say none of us were fans or remember a thing before Crosby. Can you name who was the Captain of your favorite team in the early 80s?
My team wasn't around in the 80's, but I did follow hockey in general.

I loved watching the Oilers dynasty.

And yes, I realize that there were Pens fans from the Lemieux era, and even before.

There were just a few posts stating how elite the Pens were, and how the Ranegrs sucked, and I just though thats what the Pens were in between Mario and Crosby

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07-22-2010, 02:20 PM
  #86
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Yes, there is, and it's pretty obvious. And like me (I know that ), you have done nothing to support your argument. A cup is beautiful, but teams win cups, not single players. Fleury was in a good spot at the right time, Lundqvist not. It doesn't change that he is well ahead of Fleury in terms of ability.

We are not talking about amateurs here - every goaltender in the NHL has the abilities to play very well for a certain amount of time, as Michael Leighton and Brian Boucher among others proved again this spring. Fleury was great in the Pens' cup run, but Lundqvist is on a different level and pretty much everyone who is in touch with goaltending, as a scout, goaltending coach or similar, will tell you the same thing. The difference - for the NHL level - is very significant.

Hank is a good athlete...Fleury is an athletic freak. His ability is really unmatched by ANYONE. Now that being said, he still has much room to grow into that ability, but if he reaches his true full potential, he'll be the best in the league. There is a reason MAF was a consensus #1 overall Draft Pick as a goalie...He has unmatched physical ability in terms of movement and quickness.

Let's just stop to consider that Jimmy Howard was just up for the Calder Trophy, and is 6 months older than Fleury.

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07-22-2010, 02:35 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post

Hank is a good athlete...Fleury is an athletic freak. His ability is really unmatched by ANYONE. Now that being said, he still has much room to grow into that ability, but if he reaches his true full potential, he'll be the best in the league. There is a reason MAF was a consensus #1 overall Draft Pick as a goalie...He has unmatched physical ability in terms of movement and quickness.

Let's just stop to consider that Jimmy Howard was just up for the Calder Trophy, and is 6 months older than Fleury.
thats good for him. that dont mean his potential is higher than Henrik's. It also has to do with vision and other aspects. You can be an athlete all you want but if you dont have the sense, your potential is limited.
I mean you can analyze Henrik's game and say his potential is there too. If you see Henrik at his best, nobody can score on him. Ask Ovechkin in the first part of last yrs playoffs.

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07-22-2010, 03:02 PM
  #88
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thats good for him. that dont mean his potential is higher than Henrik's. It also has to do with vision and other aspects. You can be an athlete all you want but if you dont have the sense, your potential is limited.
I mean you can analyze Henrik's game and say his potential is there too. If you see Henrik at his best, nobody can score on him. Ask Ovechkin in the first part of last yrs playoffs.

I know that when Hank is on his game he is a wall, I've been saying that this whole thread. My point is that THE SAME STATEMENT APPLIES TO FLEURY. They BOTH are ELITE goalies. Fleury can stop the best chances in the world and change the outcome of an entire series..Ask Jeff Carter, Ask Ovechkin (remember the breakaway save on Ovie early in game 7 that hushed the crowd and swung the momentum the Pens way).

The gap is just not that big if any. Hank is a little more consistent, but I would like to think that 3 year from now, when Fleury is 28 his consistency will have improved. If not, oh well. If he continues to be at his best come playoff time, like he has been 2 of the last three years, I can live with that too.

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07-22-2010, 03:06 PM
  #89
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This thread is devolving to a mudtoss about Henrik L v, MAF.

MAF is good, with flashes of brilliance to very good.
Hank is also occasionally sloppy with a bad game but is usually very good at minimum, with flashes of brilliance that make him elite.
Someone above suggested to effect that MAF has freekishly raw talent, exceptional reflexes etc., if that's true --- and I don't know that it is --- I might even consider conceding that MAF has more potential that Lundqvist. However today, honestly also needs admit King Hank has more skill ---- at present.

However, the (revised) current original post was a deal with principals of Lundqvist + Callahan for J. Staal + MAF.

Lundqvist alone is worth more than Staal, but less than Malkin. Given restructing, NYR could temporarily take on MAF, but NYR shouldn't be jammed up with that salary/cap (something like $25 mil, 5m over 5 per, roughly) without added compensation.

Any objective review of my earlier suggested counter PROPOSAL earlier in this thread?
Core of deal is sign + trade of Kovalchuk + Gabborik to Pens for Malkin + J. Staal. Do you agree this is pretty even?
Subset component to deal includes also Girardi for LeTang, two #2s in 2011 from NYR for two #1 PP picks (2011 + one other over 2012-2014). NYR also dumps a few smaller salaries, + then takes MAF off PP hands, with intent or trading ASAP.

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07-22-2010, 03:14 PM
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Dominik Hašek is one of the best goaltenders of all time.

Dominik Hašek thinks Henrik Lundqvist is the best goaltender in the entire world.

I trust Dominik Hašek.

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07-22-2010, 03:54 PM
  #91
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Dominik Hašek is one of the best goaltenders of all time.

Dominik Hašek thinks Henrik Lundqvist is the best goaltender in the entire world.

I trust Dominik Hašek.
Hasek is biased toward European players

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07-22-2010, 04:32 PM
  #92
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BTW... love your Avatar... Family Guy is an awesome show....
Agreed. I thought Brian's character and that picture were good at illustrating how I see myself looking at these boards...

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MAF was drafted first overall so the scouts, GM's and etc must have seen the incredible skills that MAF has..
This should not turn into a drafting discussion - but they obviously saw something good in him. That said, we all know how tough goalies are to project.

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Also, MAF is what 3-4 years younger than Hank.. So MAF is only getting better and better...
It's possible. But I don't see him reaching the level Lundqvist is at right now. He can prove me wrong, no question, and I'll admit that when I see it happening.

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MAF has shown to be a WINNER so this cannot be taken lightly when the pressure is magnified, MAF performed like an ELITE goalie....
I don't like the "winner" argument. It doesn't come to everyone in the same way. There's 30 teams in the league, only one is going to win every year. It definitely takes skill, but also a lot of timing and luck to be on the right team at the right time (what people commonly refer to this thing called "cup window", which is a concept I hate, by the way). And maybe my standards for being "elite" are higher, but in order to be considered an elite goalie, you don't have to be perfect for a while, but great for long times. You see goalies come in and play perfect very often, the examples are countless. I don't think MAF has performed on quite that level for a long enough time to be considered elite or very close just yet.

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Hank has to show (which I believe he can) that he can endure the pressure of winning 4 rounds of intense playoff pressure and performing at an elite level when it's crunch time in the playoffs... MAF did... Hank did not play well the last game 7 against Washington.. He let in some softies... I know he played great for most of the series but the he did not play great that game 7..
This is something else which I heavily debate. Goaltending doesn't change as much as people say in the playoffs. If you're a great goalie in this league today, you don't fold just because it's the playoffs. The pressure on these guys is ultimate all the time, you make a mistake, you give up a goal, and no goalie likes that, whether it's soft or not. Actually, the style of the game gets easier for goalies in the playoffs, because most teams will try to keep the game simpler and take shots rather than go for a crazy move or two passes more. The distinction between how goalies perform in the playoffs and in regular season are vastly overstated. The reasons are mainly a small sample size against higher calibre opponent teams and team efforts showing more in statistics in such smaller sample sizes. Two goalies that were always marked as such "playoff-chokers" were Luongo and Turco, until that one series they played against each other.

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MAF has played behind offensive systems so he wont have the shiny stats. (much like Grant Fuhr back in the day).. Hank has played almost his whole career behind defensive trapping systems under Tom Renney where his stats were Vezina nominated stats.
A defensive strategy, yes, well executed ones, I would not say so. That said, I'm a strong opponent of putting too much emphasis on goaltending statistics (S%) or team statistics that get mistaken for such (GAA, SO).

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I also played goalie, and got to D1 college. I currently coach the position, and seem to think that I may know a little about goaltending. BOTH guys are top tier goalies.
Well, then I guess we just disagree. In my opinion, there's a distinct difference between the two in terms of who is the better goaltender at this point.

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Hank is more polished fundamentally, and plays very well within the Rangers system, which has been stated before, is more defensive. (...)

This works well for the Pens all out offensive system, because the Pens goalies often face odd man breaks and all around great chances off of counter rushes. Bylsma doesn't care if he gives up 3 goals a game, because his plan is to score 5+ goals a game. (...)

If you look back at Fleury's stats from that last full year under Therrien, Fleury's Save% reg season was .925ish and .933 in the playoffs. He can post the eye popping numbers that the rest of the elite goalies in the league can under a defensive system.
More defensive, yes, working better or even benefitting the goalie more - I don't quite see that. That said, I'm not comparing both due to their respective stats, where a more defensive system would actually show, which is why I generally don't give a S% too much consideration.

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MAF is an athletic freak of nature. He moves laterally faster than any goalie I have ever seen, and can stretch and move to pucks that NO other goalie can get to.
I realize those strenghts, but I wouldn't go as far as saying no other goalie can do so.

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Both Goalies are great. Both have different strengths that suit the current system they play in. There isn't that big of a gap if any and MAF is 3 years younger.
Agree to disagree, then. There's a considerable gap as of now, in my opinion. MAF may prove me wrong in three years, or considerable less time, but as of now, I just don't see it.

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Hank is a good athlete...Fleury is an athletic freak. His ability is really unmatched by ANYONE.
Goaltending ability is way, way more than athleticism, as a goaltender and coach you will know that.

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Now that being said, he still has much room to grow into that ability, but if he reaches his true full potential, he'll be the best in the league. There is a reason MAF was a consensus #1 overall Draft Pick as a goalie...He has unmatched physical ability in terms of movement and quickness.
Nobody's arguing he doesn't have potential. I personally don't think he has the potential to be great enough in all aspects of the game to be the best in the league.

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Let's just stop to consider that Jimmy Howard was just up for the Calder Trophy, and is 6 months older than Fleury.
I don't see how that case is helping Fleury. First of all, Howard played better than Fleury for the biggest part of the season. Secondly, it's the Calder Trophy. It doesn't say Howard is elite. It does show that Fleury is young and has done respectably much for that age, no one will argue, but it also doesn't help his case when Fleury is compared to Lundqvist, who just might be the best goalie in the game today.

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I know that when Hank is on his game he is a wall, I've been saying that this whole thread. My point is that THE SAME STATEMENT APPLIES TO FLEURY. They BOTH are ELITE goalies.

Fleury can stop the best chances in the world and change the outcome of an entire series..Ask Jeff Carter, Ask Ovechkin (remember the breakaway save on Ovie early in game 7 that hushed the crowd and swung the momentum the Pens way).
And my point is, no, Fleury is not. Not at this point in time.

Every goalie that has the ability to play in this league can be a wall for a while. You can see it happening again, and again, and again. The difference is in how long goaltenders are able to perform on that level consistently. And Fleury hasn't done that nearly as long or consistently as quite a few others in the leauge, and can't be considered elite due to that, in my honest opinion.

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(...) but I would like to think that 3 year from now, when Fleury is 28 his consistency will have improved. If not, oh well.
Well, then what's wrong with calling him elite oder Lundqvist-level in those three years or whatever it takes for him to prove just that...?

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If he continues to be at his best come playoff time, like he has been 2 of the last three years, I can live with that too.
Oh, I have absolutely no doubt you won't if the Penguins continue to be good enough to make it there as it seems. And I doubt anyone in the organisation will have a problem to live with that. But as of now, there's just not enough to consider Fleury elite or on Lundqvist's level.

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07-22-2010, 04:36 PM
  #93
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Hasek is biased toward European players
Why would a Czech be biased towards a Swede? American's often seem to suggest that there's some sort of continental feeling of collectiveness in Europe. I personally feel a lot closer to Canadians than to the French, or a lot closer to US-Americans than towards Brits. Hell, I don't even care whether it's a countryman or not.

I am personally not a huge fan of Hasek, but I can't see anything wrong about his opinion.


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07-22-2010, 04:43 PM
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I also played goalie, and got to D1 college. I currently coach the position, and seem to think that I may know a little about goaltending. BOTH guys are top tier goalies. Hank is more polished fundamentally, and plays very well within the Rangers system, which has been stated before, is more defensive. MAF is an athletic freak of nature. He moves laterally faster than any goalie I have ever seen, and can stretch and move to pucks that NO other goalie can get to. This works well for the Pens all out offensive system, because the Pens goalies often face odd man breaks and all around great chances off of counter rushes. Bylsma doesn't care if he gives up 3 goals a game, because his plan is to score 5+ goals a game.

If you look back at Fleury's stats from that last full year under Therrien, Fleury's Save% reg season was .925ish and .933 in the playoffs. He can post the eye popping numbers that the rest of the elite goalies in the league can under a defensive system.

Both Goalies are great. Both have different strengths that suit the current system they play in. There isn't that big of a gap if any and MAF is 3 years younger.
Wow.... This post is right on the money....

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07-22-2010, 05:00 PM
  #95
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i'd take that in a heatbeat.

the 2 biggest question marks of the Fab four traded for a sure thing in lundquist and a 2nd line winger in callahan.

they came thru in the cup year, but fluery was off to say the least this spring


Last edited by lastcupever75: 07-22-2010 at 05:12 PM.
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07-22-2010, 05:08 PM
  #96
The Perfect Paradox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipers31 View Post
Why would a Czech be biased towards a Swede? American's often seem to suggest that there's some sort of continental feeling of collectiveness in Europe. I personally feel a lot closer to Canadians than to the French, or a lot closer to US-Americans than towards Brits. Hell, I don't even care whether it's a countryman or not.

I am personally not a huge fan of Hasek, but I can't see anything wrong about his opinion.
Obviously because it does not match Ogelthorpe's opinion. Trust me with this one, the whole Fleury vs Lundqvist debate is really not worth it. I've dealt with it in the past, and you'll never make the Fleury supporters understand why.

Ask any level-headed Islander or Devils fan on this board who the better goalie is. They see both goalies 6 times a year, and they probably know that the gap between Lundqvist and Felury is very big. Lundqvist is an elite goalie, Fleury is not. Fleury has the potential to be, but at this point, it is questionable if he will ever reach that potential.

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07-22-2010, 05:36 PM
  #97
thefifagod
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As previously stated, neither team would do this trade. However, from a fan of neither team but have watched each team plenty, the people that think MAF is in the same tier as Lundquist have been biased Pens fans. MAF came through against the Red Wings in game 7 the year they won, and played solid throughout that series, but other than that he is a vulnerable part of that team. He is far too inconsistent, as evident by him constantly giving up soft goals, and looked terrible the entire season. Lundquist is always consistent, logs his 70+ games, rarely gives up a soft goal, and carries the Rangers. That team would be nowhere near the playoffs last year without Henrik. He has the ability to stand on his head and win his team games, we don't know if MAF can because he hasn't had to, but his inconsistency would lead me to believe that he couldn't like Henrik can. Also, comparing players and using one winning a Cup to say one (MAF) is better is naive, he didn't win the cup, the team did.

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07-22-2010, 06:13 PM
  #98
Zen Arcade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Alan View Post
This thread is full of Pens fans who don't remember a thing before Crosby.

Hint - your team sucked.
Hint-so did the Rangers.

And the Rangers sucked despite having Scrooge McDuck levels of money to throw at free agents.

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07-22-2010, 06:27 PM
  #99
BlueShirts702
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Originally Posted by Lario Melieux View Post
Haha good then. You keep your overrated goalie with two, count em, TWO second round appearances.

We'll keep our 22 year old 20 goal scoring Selke nominated Stanley cup winning 6'4" 220lb shut down center, and our 25 year old stanley cup winning goalie.
Okay, thanks.

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07-22-2010, 06:59 PM
  #100
BigTuna49
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........I basically have no response to this thread at this point. Fluery an elite goalie? I just don't see how he can be considered that with his setback this year. And Henrik is considered a top 3 goalie.

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