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Old
07-21-2010, 11:49 AM
  #1
Shootmaster_44
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CSKA Question

I know this will sound like a dumb question, but thought I'd ask. Last night I was flipping around on TV and noticed a Russian soccer game, not being a major soccer fan, I tuned in for only a few minutes. The game featured CSKA playing Kryilja Sovetov (sp?). As I was watching I noticed the announcer who was speaking English and had a British accent, kept calling them siska (pronouncing CSKA as one word). Is that the actual name of the club? In all the Red Army hockey games, I've ever seen they always call them C S K A, pronouncing each letter individually. So which is correct?

As an aside, Kryilja Sovetov is the Soviet Wings correct? I'm surprised that in the post-Soviet period they hadn't changed their name to the Russian Wings or something like that.

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07-21-2010, 12:20 PM
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I think C-S-K-A is correct spelling. And names like Kirilja Sovetov are probably too traditional names to change them. In Czech Rep. we have also still some traditional names from comunist era like Dukla Jihlava which weren't changed. There is no need for that.

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07-21-2010, 12:24 PM
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IJKPrinciple
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shootmaster_44 View Post
I know this will sound like a dumb question, but thought I'd ask. Last night I was flipping around on TV and noticed a Russian soccer game, not being a major soccer fan, I tuned in for only a few minutes. The game featured CSKA playing Kryilja Sovetov (sp?). As I was watching I noticed the announcer who was speaking English and had a British accent, kept calling them siska (pronouncing CSKA as one word). Is that the actual name of the club? In all the Red Army hockey games, I've ever seen they always call them C S K A, pronouncing each letter individually. So which is correct?

As an aside, Kryilja Sovetov is the Soviet Wings correct? I'm surprised that in the post-Soviet period they hadn't changed their name to the Russian Wings or something like that.
"Siska" that's how Russians pronounce it, sort of anyway.
Pronouncing each letter separately takes too much time, too lazy for that. It can be compared to pronouncing USA as Usai (as in Usain Bolt).

About Krylya - it's a historic name relating to the aircraft industry, so no point in changing it. For example the basketball club in Samara that was established last year is called "Krasnye Krylya" which means Red Wings, a variation on the whole "Soviet Wings" I believe.
Also don't confuse Krylya Sovetov Moscow and Krylya Sovetov Samara. The former is a hockey club (currently two independent clubs actually), the second is a soccer club.
Edit: Also about CSKA - the Russians pronounce it as C S Ka (and not C S K A) - so that's "Siska" for you.
Edit2: In English you pronounce it as cee es kay ay (as in kay)
However Russian letters are pronounced differently: C is Tse, S is still Es, and K is Ka, A is U (as in pun)
So the correct pronunciation would be Tse Es Ka U however due to laziness (IMHO) the letter a in Ka is substituted for the last letter in the abbreviation CSKA, so CSKA=Tse Es Ka=CSK=Siska
So CSK in CSK VVS and CSKA are pronounced in Russian in the exact same way, so unless someone writes it down you won't distinguish CSKA from CSK.


Last edited by IJKPrinciple: 07-21-2010 at 12:46 PM.
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07-21-2010, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IJKPrinciple View Post
"Siska" that's how Russians pronounce it, sort of anyway.
Pronouncing each letter separately takes too much time, too lazy for that. It can be compared to pronouncing USA as Usai (as in Usain Bolt).

About Krylya - it's a historic name relating to the aircraft industry, so no point in changing it. For example the basketball club in Samara that was established last year is called "Krasnye Krylya" which means Red Wings, a variation on the whole "Soviet Wings" I believe.
Also don't confuse Krylya Sovetov Moscow and Krylya Sovetov Samara. The former is a hockey club (currently two independent clubs actually), the second is a soccer club.
Edit: Also about CSKA - the Russians pronounce it as C S Ka (and not C S K A) - so that's "Siska" for you.
Edit2: In English you pronounce it as cee es kay ay (as in kay)
However Russian letters are pronounced differently: C is Tse, S is still Es, and K is Ka, A is U (as in pun)
So the correct pronunciation would be Tse Es Ka U however due to laziness (IMHO) the letter a in Ka is substituted for the last letter in the abbreviation CSKA, so CSKA=Tse Es Ka=CSK=Siska
So CSK in CSK VVS and CSKA are pronounced in Russian in the exact same way, so unless someone writes it down you won't distinguish CSKA from CSK.
Thanks that makes a lot of sense. Last night I thought it was someone from England who didn't realize the name of the club.

I also don't follow Russian soccer, so I didn't realize that the soccer team wasn't an off-shoot of the hockey team (or vice-versa).

It would be interesting to get an English language book on the post-Soviet era sports scene. I'd be interested in learning all the little ideosyncracies that exist. I remember reading a very good book years ago about the Soviet hockey scene. Seems to me it was written or co-written by the General Manager of the Winnipeg Jets at the time.

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07-21-2010, 01:07 PM
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IJKPrinciple
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Originally Posted by Shootmaster_44 View Post
I also don't follow Russian soccer, so I didn't realize that the soccer team wasn't an off-shoot of the hockey team (or vice-versa).
It could be considered an off-shoot of sorts I guess: You see in the Soviet era there were many Sport societies: Dynamo (KGB), Spartak (Kolkhoz/Sovkhoz), CSKA (Red Army), Lokomotiv (railroads), Zenit, etc.

So Krylya Sovetov was a society uniting sport clubs all around the USSR that had something to do with the aircraft manufacturing industry. It doesn't have to be in one city - as can be seen with Dynamo for example: Dynamo Moscow, Dynamo Minsk, Dynamo Riga, Dynamo Tbilisi etc. and even Dynamos beyond Soviet borders in Eastern Bloc states, like Romania - Dynamo Bucharest or a CSKA: CSKA Sofia in Bulgaria.

Edit: It has to be noted however that nowadays these club are mostly private run and have little in common with their previous "masters": That is for example - Dynamos all over the former Eastern Bloc countries are not connected to each other any more and are privately run with no connection to the KGB/FSB (although HC MVD, before being merged with Dynamo this year, was linked to the Interior Ministry), CSKA being also private although still having some connections with the Ministry of Defense, without the existence of Kolkhozes the Spartak Moscow team is also entirely private, etc.
So all these teams only retain their historic names as the sole reminder of the Soviet past.


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07-21-2010, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IJKPrinciple View Post
It could be considered an off-shoot of sorts I guess: You see in the Soviet era there were many Sport societies: Dynamo (KGB), Spartak (Kolkhoz/Sovkhoz), CSKA (Red Army), Lokomotiv (railroads), Zenit, etc.

So Krylya Sovetov was a society uniting sport clubs all around the USSR that had something to do with the aircraft manufacturing industry. It doesn't have to be in one city - as can be seen with Dynamo for example: Dynamo Moscow, Dynamo Minsk, Dynamo Riga, Dynamo Tbilisi etc. and even Dynamos beyond Soviet borders in Eastern Bloc states, like Romania - Dynamo Bucharest or a CSKA: CSKA Sofia in Bulgaria.

Edit: It has to be noted however that nowadays these club are mostly private run and have little in common with their previous "masters": That is for example - Dynamos all over the former Eastern Bloc countries are not connected to each other any more and are privately run with no connection to the KGB/FSB (although HC MVD, before being merged with Dynamo this year, was linked to the Interior Ministry), CSKA being also private although still having some connections with the Ministry of Defense, without the existence of Kolkhozes the Spartak Moscow team is also entirely private, etc.
So all these teams only retain their historic names as the sole reminder of the Soviet past.
I didn't realize that they were interlinked like that. I assumed it was like the St. Cloud State team wearing similar jerseys to the Montreal Canadiens. That Dynamo Minsk liked the name so they "borrowed" it from Dynamo Moscow.

I also assumed they were like some of the Italian and Greek soccer teams, where they also have basketball teams etc. They are all run by the same organization and just have management underneath that structure for the individual team.

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07-21-2010, 05:22 PM
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IJKPrinciple
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shootmaster_44 View Post
I didn't realize that they were interlinked like that. I assumed it was like the St. Cloud State team wearing similar jerseys to the Montreal Canadiens. That Dynamo Minsk liked the name so they "borrowed" it from Dynamo Moscow.

I also assumed they were like some of the Italian and Greek soccer teams, where they also have basketball teams etc. They are all run by the same organization and just have management underneath that structure for the individual team.
Yes, they were linked, although I'm not sure whether internationally (that is for example if Romanian Dynamo had links with Dynamos from USSR), however all Dynamos/Lokomotivs/etc. were linked throughout the USSR.
Also of note is that SKA (for example SKA Saint Petersburg (SKA Leningrad back then)) was a subsidiary of sorts of the CSKA society, because CSKA meaning Central Sports Club of the Army obviously was the "central" club, while SKAs all over USSR were branches of sorts.

About multi-sports: Yes, for example Dynamo - every particular club of the society based in a particular city had many sport branches, some of the sports don't even have to be team-based, like tennis, swimming etc. Although clubs from different cities aren't connected to each other any more, the sport branches in a particular city still do: For example CSKA Moscow has currently 4 clubs - Soccer, ice hockey, basketball and futsal
Dynamo Moscow has soccer, ice hockey, bandy, basketball, volleyball, etc.
These are still linked sort of, so yes - a similarity to the Greek clubs for example.
Although I'm not sure whether for example Dinamo Minsk's soccer and ice hockey clubs are connected in any way, maybe not, it depends I guess whether there's still a parent organization that "oversees" all the sport branches, like in the case of CSKA Moscow.

Edit: I checked the website of HC Spartak Moscow and they have web links to FC Spartak Moscow and Spartak Saint Petersburg basketball club. So some clubs are linked throughout the country. I have no idea actually whether it's only a cooperation of sorts, or a parent organization exists to oversee all of them, I really don't know - these days every club out there does it how they see fit. Back then, in the USSR there was this system of sport societies, it worked somehow, it had some order. After the break up of USSR most of these clubs became private, some of them renamed themselves, some still were part of a bigger organization, some became independent, etc. There are an enormous number of different teams in different cities with different sport specializations - and every single one of them had a different fate after the USSR collapsed. A new economic and political system means a new way of perceiving life.


Last edited by IJKPrinciple: 07-21-2010 at 05:49 PM.
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07-22-2010, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shootmaster_44 View Post
I didn't realize that they were interlinked like that. I assumed it was like the St. Cloud State team wearing similar jerseys to the Montreal Canadiens. That Dynamo Minsk liked the name so they "borrowed" it from Dynamo Moscow.

I also assumed they were like some of the Italian and Greek soccer teams, where they also have basketball teams etc. They are all run by the same organization and just have management underneath that structure for the individual team.
Yeah every society in the USSR was linked, and had branches in many sports and republics, like the other poster said. That could also be a reason for the passionate fan-base that the clubs have. For example a woman could have been part of the Spartak swim club in a city, but also therefore part of the Spartak organisation. Most likely, if she cheered for hockey, she would cheer for HC Spartak. Soccer, FC Spartak etc.

Also there are some families that stay within the society and send their kids through the youth programs. Many have pride for the organisation.

Again, as the poster before mentioned, it is completely different now since nobody really gives a **** to fund sports on a large scale. Obviously you cant just change the names overnight; clubs such as Soviet Wings have had almost half a century of good reputation and fanbase to just change the name, so many clubs keep their names with no connection to a society or anything.

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07-22-2010, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Shootmaster_44 View Post
As I was watching I noticed the announcer who was speaking English and had a British accent, kept calling them siska (pronouncing CSKA as one word). Is that the actual name of the club? In all the Red Army hockey games, I've ever seen they always call them C S K A, pronouncing each letter individually. So which is correct?
Tse-es-ka, in three syllables.

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07-22-2010, 10:22 AM
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IJKPrinciple
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Also of mention regarding the change of club names: Although all these societies are currently private enterprises and have little of common with their past (Kolkhoz, KGB, army, etc.), it would be an unwise move to change the name since these names - Spartak, Dynamo, etc. have a huge history, recognised all around the world, these are brands, brands that cost big money, and since we're in capitalism, you want to capitalize on that.

So bottom line - you can change Krylya Sovetov to something that doesn't remind you of communist era, but why would you if it's a worldwide recognised brand that brings you huge income.

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07-22-2010, 04:07 PM
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A lot of this had to do with keeping the amateur status to be eligible for the Olympics.

Many of those great CSKA hockey players were also officers in the Army, but I'm pretty sure their responsibilities were strictly hockey. I HIGHLY doubt they sent them into any kind of battle situations.

I also doubt very much that, the great Soviet soccer goaltender, Lev Yashin was a KGB agent.

BTW, On the topic of being loyal to organizations, my father was a HUGE Torpedo Moscow (ZIL automobile factory affiliation) fan. His favorite player was Eduard Streltsov, who is widely considered the best striker Soviet Union has ever produced and one of the most talented soccer talents of all time.

I followed his lead and became a Torpedo fan also.

Unfortunately, becoming a separate entity didn't workout for Torpedo and they are now playing in Division 2.

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07-22-2010, 08:22 PM
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IJKPrinciple
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A lot of this had to do with keeping the amateur status to be eligible for the Olympics.

Many of those great CSKA hockey players were also officers in the Army, but I'm pretty sure their responsibilities were strictly hockey. I HIGHLY doubt they sent them into any kind of battle situations.

I also doubt very much that, the great Soviet soccer goaltender, Lev Yashin was a KGB agent.

BTW, On the topic of being loyal to organizations, my father was a HUGE Torpedo Moscow (ZIL automobile factory affiliation) fan. His favorite player was Eduard Streltsov, who is widely considered the best striker Soviet Union has ever produced and one of the most talented soccer talents of all time.

I followed his lead and became a Torpedo fan also.

Unfortunately, becoming a separate entity didn't workout for Torpedo and they are now playing in Division 2.
I follow the situation of Torpedo as well, although I can't say I'm a fan. A shame such a great club is in such a situation. Hopefully Luzhkov's abomination that is FC Moscow is no more and Torpedo, after reuniting with Zil and returning to Streltsov stadium, can look into their future with optimism. Also this Torpedo-Zil, that has nothing to do with Zil or the history of Torpedo, hope it gets liquidated.

Sorry for off-topic.

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