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LD Ryan Murray (2012, 2nd overall, Columbus)

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Old
04-02-2012, 07:35 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by DuckJet View Post
You don't think Fowler and Niedermayer had anything to do with that? I'm just saying. We'll see when he hits the NHL.
I don't think anyone is discounting Nieds or Fowler.

Just pointing out they were on juggernauts.

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04-02-2012, 07:45 PM
  #227
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About Murray.

At worst I'd say he becomes a #3.

I liken him to Hamhuis. May not be a PP QB, but is serviceable on a 1st or 2nd unit. Plays the tough PK minutes, matches against the oppositions best and still puts up 30-40 points.

I think Murray, depending on the situation, could likely put up more points in his career, but I think his style has a lot of similarities to Hamhuis.

About his shot, Murray has a freaking bomb. A much better shot than Fowler IMO, but both guys skating and passing will be their bread and butter.

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04-02-2012, 10:53 PM
  #228
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04-03-2012, 12:20 AM
  #229
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Maybe at his worst offensively

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04-03-2012, 01:34 AM
  #230
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Originally Posted by NeilYoung View Post
Ryan Murray is the exact same player as Karl Alzner
No.

..

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04-03-2012, 01:38 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
No.

..
Enlighten me how many times have you seen Murray play?

How many times have you seen Alzner play?

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04-03-2012, 07:18 AM
  #232
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I thought I would just point this out because a few people say I cannot have seen him because he is always so good, I've seen him mostly in the U18 and U20. I took a quick look at the stats, and in my mind at least it justifies what I have said. It may not be true, but when I have seen him it was.

Basically U18 Canada had 22 goals scored on them, 14 when Murray was on the ice. U20 Canada had 10 scored on them, 7 when Murray was on the ice.

I've heard several excuses but after a while, thats all they are excuses.

So when I say I do not see shutdown potential in him, these are the games I am basing it on. Maybe I just have seen all the wrong games of course, but I can say these are the high profile games, the ones where he needs to excel.

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04-03-2012, 07:32 AM
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilYoung View Post
Enlighten me how many times have you seen Murray play?

How many times have you seen Alzner play?
There are similarities, but Murray has higher offensive upside.

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04-03-2012, 09:38 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
I thought I would just point this out because a few people say I cannot have seen him because he is always so good, I've seen him mostly in the U18 and U20. I took a quick look at the stats, and in my mind at least it justifies what I have said. It may not be true, but when I have seen him it was.

Basically U18 Canada had 22 goals scored on them, 14 when Murray was on the ice. U20 Canada had 10 scored on them, 7 when Murray was on the ice.

I've heard several excuses but after a while, thats all they are excuses.

So when I say I do not see shutdown potential in him, these are the games I am basing it on. Maybe I just have seen all the wrong games of course, but I can say these are the high profile games, the ones where he needs to excel.
How many goals for was he on for?

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04-03-2012, 09:54 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
How many goals for was he on for?
Quite a few, but thats not my point. I've always said he seems far better offensively to me than scouting reports give him credit for. And I've said he does not seem as solid defensively as the scouting reports say whenever I see him. And the numbers from the games I have seen certainly back up my views, or better put my views are formulated from them.

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04-03-2012, 10:08 AM
  #236
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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
Quite a few, but thats not my point. I've always said he seems far better offensively to me than scouting reports give him credit for. And I've said he does not seem as solid defensively as the scouting reports say whenever I see him. And the numbers from the games I have seen certainly back up my views, or better put my views are formulated from them.
Same for me.

People are talking about him as if he's a shutdown defenceman. I don't think he is. I think he's more of an offensive guy than defensive, but that's just my take.

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04-03-2012, 10:47 AM
  #237
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Same for me.

People are talking about him as if he's a shutdown defenceman. I don't think he is. I think he's more of an offensive guy than defensive, but that's just my take.
Thats my take too, which seems opposite of the scouting reports.

I've gotten a few nasty emails over time over my opinion of him not being a shut down guy, I'm glad a few people see the same thing as I've been seeing.

And for the record its not beating on him, he still is my number 1 choice for a D man in this draft, just not for the same reasons he is in most peoples opinion.

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04-03-2012, 11:10 AM
  #238
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I think there is a difference between "shutdown" and "stay-at-home" that is getting misconstrued.

Duncan Keith is a shutdown defensman, so is Ryan Suter, Dan Hamhuis, Ryan McDonagh....etc

Murray getting asked to check the oppositions top units at the WJHC speaks to his ability to be a shutdown defensman, especially considering he was on a blueline with much hyped Douggie Hamilton and Brandon Gormley.

I honestly think its unfair to look at his stats "in a box" like ottawah (not to single you out) is.

He was on the ice for all these goals against in these best on best tournaments...I guess what I am doing is 'making excuses', but you cannot just look at a stat line and assume Murray is to blame.

U-18's his partner was Ryan Murphy, otherwise known as the riverboat gambler of all defensman.

He was on for 7 out of 10 at the WJC, yet still came out of the tourney with positive +/- numbers, hell he was only -1 in probably the worst game of luck in his young career (semifinal vs. Russia). Could you possibly state with any confidence that the canadian goalies were free of any fault?

Hell Nik Lidstrom finished -1 last season, does that mean he sucks defensively...I would say NO.

I would definitely call Ryan Murray a shutdown defensman, he gets asked to be a shutdown defensman on every team he has ever played on....

He has all the calling cards of a truly elite shutdown defensman: low panic threshold, smooth skating stride, active stick, great body positioning in the d-zone, physical enough, strong stick etc...

He isn't a 'stay at home' guy, but he is definitely a shutdown player (draft eligible guys for Canada, dont often get handed the responsibility to shutdown the oppositions best if they aren't suited for it).

I honestly feel he gets a bad wrap because all people want to remember is the Russia game.

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04-03-2012, 11:17 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
I think there is a difference between "shutdown" and "stay-at-home" that is getting misconstrued.

Duncan Keith is a shutdown defensman, so is Ryan Suter, Dan Hamhuis, Ryan McDonagh....etc

Murray getting asked to check the oppositions top units at the WJHC speaks to his ability to be a shutdown defensman, especially considering he was on a blueline with much hyped Douggie Hamilton and Brandon Gormley.

I honestly think its unfair to look at his stats "in a box" like ottawah (not to single you out) is.

He was on the ice for all these goals against in these best on best tournaments...I guess what I am doing is 'making excuses', but you cannot just look at a stat line and assume Murray is to blame.

U-18's his partner was Ryan Murphy, otherwise known as the riverboat gambler of all defensman.

He was on for 7 out of 10 at the WJC, yet still came out of the tourney with positive +/- numbers, hell he was only -1 in probably the worst game of luck in his young career (semifinal vs. Russia). Could you possibly state with any confidence that the canadian goalies were free of any fault?

Hell Nik Lidstrom finished -1 last season, does that mean he sucks defensively...I would say NO.

I would definitely call Ryan Murray a shutdown defensman, he gets asked to be a shutdown defensman on every team he has ever played on....

He has all the calling cards of a truly elite shutdown defensman: low panic threshold, smooth skating stride, active stick, great body positioning in the d-zone, physical enough, strong stick etc...

He isn't a 'stay at home' guy, but he is definitely a shutdown player (draft eligible guys for Canada, dont often get handed the responsibility to shutdown the oppositions best if they aren't suited for it).

I honestly feel he gets a bad wrap because all people want to remember is the Russia game.
This.

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04-03-2012, 11:30 AM
  #240
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
I think there is a difference between "shutdown" and "stay-at-home" that is getting misconstrued.

Duncan Keith is a shutdown defensman, so is Ryan Suter, Dan Hamhuis, Ryan McDonagh....etc

Murray getting asked to check the oppositions top units at the WJHC speaks to his ability to be a shutdown defensman, especially considering he was on a blueline with much hyped Douggie Hamilton and Brandon Gormley.

I honestly think its unfair to look at his stats "in a box" like ottawah (not to single you out) is.

He was on the ice for all these goals against in these best on best tournaments...I guess what I am doing is 'making excuses', but you cannot just look at a stat line and assume Murray is to blame.

U-18's his partner was Ryan Murphy, otherwise known as the riverboat gambler of all defensman.

He was on for 7 out of 10 at the WJC, yet still came out of the tourney with positive +/- numbers, hell he was only -1 in probably the worst game of luck in his young career (semifinal vs. Russia). Could you possibly state with any confidence that the canadian goalies were free of any fault?

Hell Nik Lidstrom finished -1 last season, does that mean he sucks defensively...I would say NO.

I would definitely call Ryan Murray a shutdown defensman, he gets asked to be a shutdown defensman on every team he has ever played on....

He has all the calling cards of a truly elite shutdown defensman: low panic threshold, smooth skating stride, active stick, great body positioning in the d-zone, physical enough, strong stick etc...

He isn't a 'stay at home' guy, but he is definitely a shutdown player (draft eligible guys for Canada, dont often get handed the responsibility to shutdown the oppositions best if they aren't suited for it).

I honestly feel he gets a bad wrap because all people want to remember is the Russia game.
I remember far more than the russian game, right through the U18's.

And to me +/- is a crappy useless stat, which is why I did not use it.

Anyway I stand by what I saw. A sample set of about ten games with high end talent where he was on the ice for 65% of the goals against. Thats not a truly elite shut down D man.

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04-03-2012, 11:38 AM
  #241
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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
I remember far more than the russian game, right through the U18's.

And to me +/- is a crappy useless stat, which is why I did not use it.

Anyway I stand by what I saw. A sample set of about ten games with high end talent where he was on the ice for 65% of the goals against. Thats not a truly elite shut down D man.
I appreciate your insight but I also don't really understand where you're coming from. You say you don't like the +/- stat, yet you talk about how many goals were scored against Murray when he was on the ice.. So basically you just look at the - stat line. Thats ignoring the rest (goals scored when Murray is on the ice, and goals scored against Murray's team when he's on the PK).

My point is that if his team is still scoring more when he is on the ice than the opponents are, I don't really see how you are punishing Murray for this? This may count as an excuse but you're also ignoring the fact that Murray is getting the toughest assignments (PK, playing opponents top lines).

Would you explain it by saying Murray makes up for his defensive shortcomings with solid offence?

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04-03-2012, 11:41 AM
  #242
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
I think there is a difference between "shutdown" and "stay-at-home" that is getting misconstrued.

Duncan Keith is a shutdown defensman, so is Ryan Suter, Dan Hamhuis, Ryan McDonagh....etc

He has all the calling cards of a truly elite shutdown defensman: low panic threshold, smooth skating stride, active stick, great body positioning in the d-zone, physical enough, strong stick etc...

He isn't a 'stay at home' guy, but he is definitely a shutdown player (draft eligible guys for Canada, dont often get handed the responsibility to shutdown the oppositions best if they aren't suited for it).

I honestly feel he gets a bad wrap because all people want to remember is the Russia game.
I agree with a lot of what you've said here. To me, that is a #1 D. He is a team's top guy because it is beneficial to have him out in all situations.. ie 25+ mins/night, PP, PK, last minute of a game up or down by 1.

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04-03-2012, 01:30 PM
  #243
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I appreciate your insight but I also don't really understand where you're coming from. You say you don't like the +/- stat, yet you talk about how many goals were scored against Murray when he was on the ice.. So basically you just look at the - stat line. Thats ignoring the rest (goals scored when Murray is on the ice, and goals scored against Murray's team when he's on the PK).
+/- looks at goals when you are on the ice for and against. A great offensive player can have a great +/- and be a crappy defensive player, so +/- means nothing. Different teams also means different goalies, a big difference changer in +/-.

But in my scenario that all goes away. All the D play with the same goaltender in behind them so thats equal.

You see, I'm only interested in the assertion that he is a shut down D. To me that means he is stopping the other teams players when he is on the ice. So if he is stopping them, then they score less goals against him, correct? Well, its not happening "when I saw him". In fact, they are scoring significantly more goals when he is on the ice than when other D are on the ice. Now I agree that he generally plays against the other teams better players, but would hope that his numbers across multiple tournies would at least be indicative that he is doing a shutdown job, and they are not.

Quote:
My point is that if his team is still scoring more when he is on the ice than the opponents are, I don't really see how you are punishing Murray for this? This may count as an excuse but you're also ignoring the fact that Murray is getting the toughest assignments (PK, playing opponents top lines).

Would you explain it by saying Murray makes up for his defensive shortcomings with solid offence?
Murrays team scoring more when he is on the ice does not make him a shutdown specialist, which is exactly my point.

More importantly, I'm not going to say Murray has defensive shortcomings, but based upon my observations, in no way can he be called an elite shut down specialist based upon how often he gets scored against compared to the other D men on his team. That does not mean he is weak defensively, it only means he is ont going to be the next great defender in the NHL.

And I personally think his offense is better than advertised. I read he is expected to be a 30 point D man at the next level, maybe topping out at 40. I think he is better than that offensively.

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04-03-2012, 01:58 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
+/- looks at goals when you are on the ice for and against. A great offensive player can have a great +/- and be a crappy defensive player, so +/- means nothing. Different teams also means different goalies, a big difference changer in +/-.

But in my scenario that all goes away. All the D play with the same goaltender in behind them so thats equal.

You see, I'm only interested in the assertion that he is a shut down D. To me that means he is stopping the other teams players when he is on the ice. So if he is stopping them, then they score less goals against him, correct? Well, its not happening "when I saw him". In fact, they are scoring significantly more goals when he is on the ice than when other D are on the ice. Now I agree that he generally plays against the other teams better players, but would hope that his numbers across multiple tournies would at least be indicative that he is doing a shutdown job, and they are not.



Murrays team scoring more when he is on the ice does not make him a shutdown specialist, which is exactly my point.

More importantly, I'm not going to say Murray has defensive shortcomings, but based upon my observations, in no way can he be called an elite shut down specialist based upon how often he gets scored against compared to the other D men on his team. That does not mean he is weak defensively, it only means he is ont going to be the next great defender in the NHL.

And I personally think his offense is better than advertised. I read he is expected to be a 30 point D man at the next level, maybe topping out at 40. I think he is better than that offensively.
Ok, I get what you're saying for the most part. One important thing to note IMO is that if a player (Murray) is scoring, while playing against the best teams opposition, thats the most effective way of shutting them down. So if Murray is leading to breakouts with slick passes, or leading to scoring chances in the opponents end, to me that also qualifies as shutting down the other teams big guns.

I guess I look at it in more of a holistic sense (what happens both offensively and defensively when Murray is on the ice VS top opposition) instead of just focusing on the defensive end as you have.

Its also a good sign that his coaches at both tournaments played him against top opposition. Especially at the WJs, when Canada had other solid, and older options they elected to play Murray. To me, that does say something about his strength as a player.

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04-03-2012, 02:29 PM
  #245
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I guess I look at it in more of a holistic sense (what happens both offensively and defensively when Murray is on the ice VS top opposition) instead of just focusing on the defensive end as you have.
The reason why I have him rated as the number 1 D man in the draft is because of the holistic approach. I only focus on D to point out that when I have seen him, he has not excelled as an elite shutdown D man, which some people are billing him as. Based on the games I have seen him in, he will better offensively than defensively at the next level.

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04-03-2012, 02:44 PM
  #246
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Same for me.

People are talking about him as if he's a shutdown defenceman. I don't think he is. I think he's more of an offensive guy than defensive, but that's just my take.
No you're right, anybody think that he lives and dies in the defensive zone really haven't seen him play. He's extremely smart and always makes the right play in the defensive zone, but always rushes the puck up the ice. Maybe he's not as good as Dumba in that regard, but he has a perfect balance of two-way ability and is far from a defensive-first type of player.

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04-04-2012, 09:56 PM
  #247
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No you're right, anybody think that he lives and dies in the defensive zone really haven't seen him play. He's extremely smart and always makes the right play in the defensive zone, but always rushes the puck up the ice. Maybe he's not as good as Dumba in that regard, but he has a perfect balance of two-way ability and is far from a defensive-first type of player.
I think his ability to cause turnovers and turn them into offensive chances is his greatest strength. When he goes on the forecheck, he always gets the puck and almost always can turn it into a pass up the ice, on the tape. He is consistent and reliable on defense and on the point, but the ease he has in making those quick conversions while not putting himself out of position always astounds me.

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04-09-2012, 01:11 PM
  #248
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So, Murray seems to have moved up. Everyone was saying Grigs was the #2 pick over Murray if the Oilers get it, just because it would be the "BPA", but does this mean he has a better shot at #2 overall now?

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04-09-2012, 01:25 PM
  #249
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So, Murray seems to have moved up. Everyone was saying Grigs was the #2 pick over Murray if the Oilers get it, just because it would be the "BPA", but does this mean he has a better shot at #2 overall now?
No doubt. This is also the 2nd scouting list hes been at #2 this week. Will be interesting to see where hes at on bobby macs top 10 tomorrow.

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04-12-2012, 03:41 PM
  #250
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Anyone think there's a chance Murray drops to 5th? I don't think it's likely, but would absolutely love to snag him as a Leafs fan.

1) Edmonton - Yakupov
2) Columbus - Grigorenko/Galchenyuk
3) Montreal - Grigorenko/Galchenyuk
4) NYI - Forsberg
5) Toronto - Murray

Probably a total pipe dream, but hey, a man can dream

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