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Flyers have worst farm system in NHL

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Old
03-18-2011, 10:07 AM
  #1
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Flyers have worst farm system in NHL

Just a theory..but does anybody think this has anything to do with gifting draft picks like tic tacs over the years

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DALLAS -- It’s official.

The Flyers have the worst farm system in the NHL.

Even though the Flyers have had the lowest average first pick in the NHL draft every year since 2007, the Flyers’ farm system still ranks 30th in the NHL in viable prospects, according to The Hockey News’ annual “Future Watch” edition which was released this week.

The Flyers did not place a prospect in THN’s Top 50 list and the organization was given a C-minus grade by a panel of 18 scouts, the lowest grade league-wide.

Sure, it doesn’t help that the Flyers have had just one first round pick since 2008. They have needed to trade them to bring in worthwhile players like Chris Pronger and Kris Versteeg. But when they’ve had one, they’ve been pretty successful.

Every single one of the Flyers’ first round picks since 2000 – Justin Williams (now in LA), Jeff Woywitka (DAL), Joni Pitkanen (CAR), Jeff Carter, Mike Richards, Steve Downie (TB), Claude Giroux, James van Riemsdyk, Luca Sbisa (ANA) – are all playing in the NHL.

The Flyers have very few prospects in Adirondack - which has slowly but surely picked themselves out of last place in the AHL and out of contention for the worst record in franchise history - that project to make the NHL.


http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/f...em-in-NHL.html

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03-18-2011, 10:10 AM
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Not surprising. Most of the guys below the NHL are known scrubs. However, I have no problem having a crappy farm system if the big club is winning.

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Old
03-18-2011, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Not surprising. Most of the guys below the NHL are known scrubs. However, I have no problem having a crappy farm system if the big club is winning.
I have a problem with it especially considering this isn't MLB and you have a cap and right now the big club is looking rather SMALL....but we shall see if they can turn on the intensity like a light switch as they seem to think they can do every season.

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03-18-2011, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
I have a problem with it especially considering this isn't MLB and you have a cap and right now the big club is looking rather SMALL....but we shall see if they can turn on the intensity like a light switch as they seem to think they can do every season.
Well, yeah like I said...as long as they are winning it is ok. If they are not winning it wouldn't be ok. Then again, just having good prospects doesn't equal wins. The Flyers don't really need a good farm system when you look at this team. Richards, Carter, Giroux, JVR, Bob, and to a lesser extent Coburn, Leino, and Carle are all very young and very capable guys. When the majority of your team is young you can go out and get the other pieces you need to compete, even that means replacing Pronger and Timonen with free agents when the time comes. Now, in a few years when these guys are older if they still have the worst farm system, then you get worried.

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03-18-2011, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Well, yeah like I said...as long as they are winning it is ok. If they are not winning it wouldn't be ok. Then again, just having good prospects doesn't equal wins. The Flyers don't really need a good farm system when you look at this team. Richards, Carter, Giroux, JVR, Bob, and to a lesser extent Coburn, Leino, and Carle are all very young and very capable guys. When the majority of your team is young you can go out and get the other pieces you need to compete, even that means replacing Pronger and Timonen with free agents when the time comes. Now, in a few years when these guys are older if they still have the worst farm system, then you get worried.
I agree, this was the basis of why I was fine with the Pronger deal. However, in a cap world, at a certain point your young, cheap players are no longer cheap and you NEED to have younger, cheaper guys in your farm ready to replace them.

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03-18-2011, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I agree, this was the basis of why I was fine with the Pronger deal. However, in a cap world, at a certain point your young, cheap players are no longer cheap and you NEED to have younger, cheaper guys in your farm ready to replace them.
Exactly! Look successful teams that are not just about the short-term have good farm systems. You can't succeed in this league in any sustainable manner without developing your farm system...it is critical in a cap league. People act like you can't chew gum and walk at the same time. Good management has a balanced approach to development...Devils were successful and won cups while still developing their players within a system no less so I don't totally buy this idea that to WIN NOW having a suck ass farm team is just a natural byproduct and should be acceptable...BULL!

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Old
03-18-2011, 10:40 AM
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Somewhere, Chris Shafer is compiling a list of reasons why that assessment is wrong. OUR PROSPECTS ARE FINE.

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03-18-2011, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
Somewhere, Chris Shafer is compiling a list of reasons why that assessment is wrong. OUR PROSPECTS ARE FINE.
Yeah I'm familiar with the prevailing orthodoxies/dogma of some....

Maybe the Flyers should opt out of having a farm system altogether..they can be the only team in the league with the ideology that they don't need one....

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03-18-2011, 11:01 AM
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I don't think anyone should be surprised. Our best prospects are either traded or already on the roster.

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03-18-2011, 11:17 AM
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We'll have Richards, Carter, Giroux, JVR for the next 8 years. We'll also probably have Hartnell, Leino, Briere, Kimmo, Pronger, Mez, Coburn for the next 3-4 years.

To be honest, our prospects aren't much of a concern right now. We have 3 years to rebuild our system before we have to replace any impact players.

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Old
03-18-2011, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Yeah I'm familiar with the prevailing orthodoxies/dogma of some....

Maybe the Flyers should opt out of having a farm system altogether..they can be the only team in the league with the ideology that they don't need one....
Can they opt out of power plays, too?

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03-18-2011, 11:29 AM
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Yeah the only thing I'd really like in the system is a top defensive prospect. No forward prospects will ever make a big impact with the young core of forwards we have. Richards/Carter/Giroux/JVR/Versteeg/Leino are all relatively young. If there are no significant injuries in the next few years, we should be fine with Richards/Carter/Giroux leading the team. Not to mention JVR has plenty of room to develop.

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03-18-2011, 11:31 AM
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The prospect pool is weak but just so everyone knows, The Hockey News' opinion doesn't make anything "official"

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03-18-2011, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Quacker912 View Post
We'll have Richards, Carter, Giroux, JVR for the next 8 years. We'll also probably have Hartnell, Leino, Briere, Kimmo, Pronger, Mez, Coburn for the next 3-4 years.

To be honest, our prospects aren't much of a concern right now. We have 3 years to rebuild our system before we have to replace any impact players.
Ok our earlier point remains...

The next 8 years:
Richards = yes
Carter = yes
Giroux = will need another contract AKA more money
JVR = will need another contract AKA more money

The next 3-4 years:
Hartnell = will need another contract
Leino = will need another contract AKA more money
Briere = yes
Kimmo = will need another contract
Pronger = yes
Mez = yes
Coburn = will need another contract AKA more money

Where the hell are you getting this idea that this is possible? Where is this money coming from? When you have good players, they will get paid. It is critical to have young, cheap guys to replace some of these guys bc we can't afford them all forever.

Edit: Just an addition, I'm not doom and gloom by any means. I agree with the general sentiment. But at the moment we have a HORRENDOUS farm system. We can't allow that to be the case for much longer.

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03-18-2011, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by jd2210 View Post
The prospect pool is weak but just so everyone knows, The Hockey News' opinion doesn't make anything "official"
So true. Also, the Flyers' have never had a good ranking in that edition, in my memory, but it hasn't stopped us from being a good team.

You could have three prospects or Pronger. You could have Jonathan Blum coming up this year, or you could have Timonen and Hartnell for the last three years and the next few.

We've traded picks and prospects for guys who are "players" on one of the league's better teams. I'd take that anyday over being 30th overall with a huge pool of great "prospects."

Prospect rankings are amusing, but not predictive of NHL success, at the micro or macro levels.

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03-18-2011, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Ok our earlier point remains...

The next 8 years:
Richards = yes
Carter = yes
Giroux = will need another contract AKA more money
JVR = will need another contract AKA more money

The next 3-4 years:
Hartnell = will need another contract
Leino = will need another contract AKA more money
Briere = yes
Kimmo = will need another contract
Pronger = yes
Mez = yes
Coburn = will need another contract AKA more money

Where the hell are you getting this idea that this is possible? Where is this money coming from? When you have good players, they will get paid. It is critical to have young, cheap guys to replace some of these guys bc we can't afford them all forever.

Edit: Just an addition, I'm not doom and gloom by any means. I agree with the general sentiment. But at the moment we have a HORRENDOUS farm system. We can't allow that to be the case for much longer.

We'll get money because other players will be leaving? I'm pretty positive we can have all of those players locked up. Players like Kimmo and Hartnell (and Leino at the end of this year) would clearly sign here at a discount.

Only concerns money wise is Giroux, JVR, and Coburn because none of them have reached their potential yet. All of them love it here and will probably also take discounts.

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03-18-2011, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Quacker912 View Post
We'll get money because other players will be leaving? I'm pretty positive we can have all of those players locked up. Players like Kimmo and Hartnell (and Leino at the end of this year) would clearly sign here at a discount.

Only concerns money wise is Giroux, JVR, and Coburn because none of them have reached their potential yet. All of them love it here and will probably also take discounts.
Ah, what? The numbers they're talking about with Leino is around 3M a year... that isn't a "discount" in my book. Hartnell's next contract will be his last significant one most likely, very much doubt he'll be signing on at a discount.

...and I think you're living in a land of unicorns and leprechauns with the second paragraph.

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03-18-2011, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Quacker912 View Post
We'll get money because other players will be leaving? I'm pretty positive we can have all of those players locked up. Players like Kimmo and Hartnell (and Leino at the end of this year) would clearly sign here at a discount.

Only concerns money wise is Giroux, JVR, and Coburn because none of them have reached their potential yet. All of them love it here and will probably also take discounts.
The widespread assumption that everyone will take 'home town discounts' is a little ridiculous.

Will they take a lower cap hit in the form of more years? Probably. But I doubt they'll take lower dollar for their prime years just to play here. You really think Giroux and/or his agent don't know his worth and won't want to get paid on his next deal? At some point you have to pay these guys what they're worth or let them go. I'll be surprised if we don't lose at least one of them (unless we move money elsewhere).

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03-18-2011, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Quacker912 View Post
We'll get money because other players will be leaving? I'm pretty positive we can have all of those players locked up. Players like Kimmo and Hartnell (and Leino at the end of this year) would clearly sign here at a discount.

Only concerns money wise is Giroux, JVR, and Coburn because none of them have reached their potential yet. All of them love it here and will probably also take discounts.
hahaha who is leaving?

The ONLY player you didn't mention that makes a substantial amount of money is Carle. Hooray, we have a a little uner 3.5 million to spread out to ALLLLLL of those guys you mentioned. I'm sure they will be pleased with that. So who else is leaving that is resulting in this money? You named the entire damn team haha.

As for discounts? Who's taking one? Kimmo could re-sign for a bit cheaper as he'd be old. That's about it. Giroux, JVR, Leino are all in line for BIG raises. Everyone else would come in at about the same.

So counting Carle at a little under 3.5 and Kimmo taking, let's say even a 2million discount. Sweet. We have 5.5 million to disperse to the other 10 players you mentioned. I'm sure they are thrilled with their 550k raise.

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03-18-2011, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quacker912 View Post
We'll get money because other players will be leaving? I'm pretty positive we can have all of those players locked up. Players like Kimmo and Hartnell (and Leino at the end of this year) would clearly sign here at a discount.

Only concerns money wise is Giroux, JVR, and Coburn because none of them have reached their potential yet. All of them love it here and will probably also take discounts.
I also encourage you to go look at our roster from just 3 years ago and familiarize yourself with the amount of turnover that has occurred during that time. (Only 4 forwards and 2 d-men remain.)

To suggest this team will stay in tact for that long, let alone implying 8 years as you did, is laughable.

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Old
03-18-2011, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
hahaha who is leaving?

The ONLY player you didn't mention that makes a substantial amount of money is Carle. Hooray, we have a a little uner 3.5 million to spread out to ALLLLLL of those guys you mentioned. I'm sure they will be pleased with that. So who else is leaving that is resulting in this money? You named the entire damn team haha.

As for discounts? Who's taking one? Kimmo could re-sign for a bit cheaper as he'd be old. That's about it. Giroux, JVR, Leino are all in line for BIG raises. Everyone else would come in at about the same.

So counting Carle at a little under 3.5 and Kimmo taking, let's say even a 2million discount. Sweet. We have 5.5 million to disperse to the other 10 players you mentioned. I'm sure they are thrilled with their 550k raise.
I personally think Kimmo will retire after this contract is up.

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03-18-2011, 11:55 AM
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I personally think Kimmo will retire after this contract is up.
Sort of sounds like it... but wouldn't be shocked if he does a year-to-year thing.

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03-18-2011, 11:56 AM
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I think if they win it all this year, Holmgren and company will do a Chicago thing and ship out a few bodies to reclaim cap space, get some good prospects and get some picks. Some guys will become real valuable around the league if the Flyers go on another Stanley Cup run.....

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03-18-2011, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
I personally think Kimmo will retire after this contract is up.
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Sort of sounds like it... but wouldn't be shocked if he does a year-to-year thing.
Agreed. He seems content with his career.

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03-18-2011, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I think if they win it all this year, Holmgren and company will do a Chicago thing and ship out a few bodies to reclaim cap space, get some good prospects and get some picks. Some guys will become real valuable around the league if the Flyers go on another Stanley Cup run.....
I highly doubt it. And if so, it won't be nearly to the same extent or for the same reasons.

Chicago did what it did because they had no other choice merely to be cap complient. If we do anything, it would be entirely by choice. The only real issue heading into next season is Leino.

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