HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Is Hasek really the best goaltender?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-22-2010, 04:13 PM
  #1
I Hate Chris Butler
Backlund Fan Club
 
I Hate Chris Butler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Saskatchewan
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,728
vCash: 330
Is Hasek really the best goaltender?

I see this a lot on HF where people refer to Hasek as "the best goalie of all time" and I have never really thought that. I feel like Hasek gets overrated a lot simply because his peak was so dominant. I didn't watch hockey when he was at his best so I can't fully appreciate his talent, but does anyone feel that guys like Roy, Brodeur, Sawchuk, etc. who kept up great play for longer periods of time, whereas Hasek lost his job to Osgood later in his career, don't get enough credit when compared to Hasek? I feel like Hasek gets way too much credit.

Maybe it's just me.

I Hate Chris Butler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 04:14 PM
  #2
kmad
Riot Survivor
 
kmad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,042
vCash: 500
An easy case for Hasek over Brodeur and Roy is that Hasek won all of his Vezinas (and both his Harts and both his Pearsons) while playing directly against those two.

kmad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 04:15 PM
  #3
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,418
vCash: 500
Hasek was out of this world good at his peak.

How can you be overrated because you were so dominant?

Maybe he didn't last as long as some others but his peak was craaaazy.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 04:22 PM
  #4
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,609
vCash: 500
I agree that Hasek can be overrated by the "save percentage" crowd. It is becoming canon in some places that he is the best goalie of all time, period, and I think that is simply not the case. Patrick Roy and Jacques Plante both have very good cases as the best goalie of all time, and I'd probably take them both over Hasek by the slimmest of margins, though I certainly wouldn't fault anyone for having Hasek #1. Terry Sawchuk has a case over Hasek too, if you only look at peak performance and value playoffs extremely highly.

Glenn Hall and Martin Brodeur were consistently elite goalies for a long period of time, but I don't think either can really touch Hasek in terms of peak, so it's a stretch to rank either one over him IMO.

However, the fact that Hasek lost his starting job to Osgood shouldn't be used against him at all. He was well into his 40s by this time. Patrick Roy retired at 37.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 04:24 PM
  #5
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,609
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stank Mahovlich View Post
An easy case for Hasek over Brodeur and Roy is that Hasek won all of his Vezinas (and both his Harts and both his Pearsons) while playing directly against those two.
It's an easy, but incomplete case, considering Roy's statistical prime was the late 80s*, and any case he has to be #1 values his playoff performances very highly. And that Brodeur is 7 years younger than Hasek and was likely just entering his prime when Hasek was leaving his.

*someone calculated save % vs. the rest of the league, and Roy had a peak in the late 80s where he led the field almost as much as Hasek did in the mid 90s, albeit against weaker competition.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 04:25 PM
  #6
Bear of Bad News
Mod Supervisor
 
Bear of Bad News's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Windsor
Posts: 5,326
vCash: 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by C For Choke View Post
does anyone feel that guys like Roy, Brodeur, Sawchuk, etc. who kept up great play for longer periods of time,
Just because Hasek wasn't being dominant in the NHL for his entire career, that doesn't mean that he wasn't dominant for a long period of time.

Bear of Bad News is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 04:25 PM
  #7
kmad
Riot Survivor
 
kmad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,042
vCash: 500
Hasek's dominance at the 1998 Olympics should be the crown on his resume.

kmad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 04:28 PM
  #8
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,609
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stank Mahovlich View Post
Hasek's dominance at the 1998 Olympics should be the crown on his resume.
It was dominance, but was it really more dominant than Roy? Didn't the Czech Republic actually outshoot Canada in the famous semifinal game?

The difference between Hasek and Roy in 1998 was basically a single shot in a shootout.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 04:32 PM
  #9
Bear of Bad News
Mod Supervisor
 
Bear of Bad News's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Windsor
Posts: 5,326
vCash: 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
It was dominance, but was it really more dominant than Roy? Didn't the Czech Republic actually outshoot Canada in the famous semifinal game?

The difference between Hasek and Roy in 1998 was basically a single shot in a shootout.
That's correct - shots were in the Czechs' favor by a 28-25 margin.

Bear of Bad News is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 04:34 PM
  #10
kmad
Riot Survivor
 
kmad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,042
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The difference between Hasek and Roy in 1998 was basically a single shot in a shootout.
That's hardly accurate. Canada's team was miles better in all areas. Roy had truckloads of support - Hasek had nothing but Jagr. The difference in that one game might be slightly in Hasek's favor but there is no way that holds true throughout the tournament.

I can't find the tournament statistics right now but I do remember that Hasek's stats blew Roy's out of the water. I dug them up for a previous argument once. Let me know if you can find them.

kmad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 04:42 PM
  #11
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,609
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stank Mahovlich View Post

I can't find the tournament statistics right now but I do remember that Hasek's stats blew Roy's out of the water. I dug them up for a previous argument once. Let me know if you can find them.
I would imagine anyone with a SIHR account could find them easily.

But I'm not interested in their stats for the whole tournament. I'm interested in their stats for the whole tournament, minus the bronze medal game when a disinterested Canada got blown out.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 04:42 PM
  #12
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 33,102
vCash: 500
That one gets a great big no from me.

MXD is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 04:50 PM
  #13
Bear of Bad News
Mod Supervisor
 
Bear of Bad News's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Windsor
Posts: 5,326
vCash: 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I would imagine anyone with a SIHR account could find them easily.
Or anyone who can find my site

Hasek:
02/13/98: W (60m, 17/17) 3-0 victory vs. Finland (Myllys).
02/15/98: W (60m, 21/23) 8-2 victory vs. Kazakhstan (Yeremeyev, Shimin).
02/16/98: L (60m, 29/31) 1-2 defeat at Russia (Shtalenkov).
02/18/98: W (60m, 38/39) 4-1 victory vs. United States (Richter, Vanbiesbrouck, Richter) [Quarterfinals].
02/20/98: W (70m, 24/25) 2-1 SO (5/5) victory vs. Canada (Roy) [Semifinals].
02/22/98: W (60m, 20/20) 1-0 victory vs. Russia (Shtalenkov) [Gold-Medal Game].

Roy:
02/13/98: W (60m, 18/18) 5-0 victory vs. Belarus (Mezin).
02/14/98: W (60m, 27/29) 3-2 victory vs. Sweden (Salo).
02/16/98: W (60m, 31/32) 4-1 victory vs. United States (Richter).
02/18/98: W (60m, 16/17) 4-1 victory vs. Kazakhstan (Yeremeyev) [Quarterfinals].
02/20/98: L (70m, 27/28) 1-2 SO (3/4) defeat vs. Czech Republic (Hasek) [Semifinals].
02/21/98: L (60m, 12/15) 2-3 defeat vs. Finland (Sulander) [Bronze-Medal Game].

Bear of Bad News is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 04:50 PM
  #14
BostonAJ
Registered User
 
BostonAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Southie
Country: United States
Posts: 2,559
vCash: 500
I'm in the 'Hasek is #1' crowd. Roy was more technically proficient, but Hasek played like he'd rather lose a limb than allow a goal. Easily the most exciting goalie to watch that I've ever seen. It's not easy for a goalie to be widely regarded as the best player in the world. Only goalie to win the Hart twice (and the Lindsay/Pearson).

BostonAJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 04:55 PM
  #15
kmad
Riot Survivor
 
kmad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,042
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
But I'm not interested in their stats for the whole tournament. I'm interested in their stats for the whole tournament, minus the bronze medal game when a disinterested Canada got blown out.
You can't pick and choose statistics. If Roy was as elite as Hasek, he should be able to bail out a lackluster team for one game, as Hasek did night in and night out for several seasons in Buffalo.

kmad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 04:55 PM
  #16
Infinite Vision*
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,861
vCash: 500
Yes he is. There is no logical argument for him not being the best ever. The only arguements are for guys who played on stacked teams for longer periods of time, both seasons, and games per season, yet none match his 6 Vezina trophies, or his 2 Hart trophies. No one matches his statistical dominance in save percentage. Whether people like it or not save percentage is the most important statistic for comparing goalies. Yes there are many factors which determine a goalies save percentage...but there are even more that determine GAA and wins, etc. There really is no reason to believe Hasek wasn't the best goalie ever...IMO that is.


Last edited by Infinite Vision*: 07-22-2010 at 05:15 PM.
Infinite Vision* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 05:00 PM
  #17
Fire Sweeney
Registered User
 
Fire Sweeney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bergen
Country: Norway
Posts: 23,070
vCash: 500
The brodeurisafraud blog has a detailed analysis of the Hasek/Roye/Brodeur debate:

http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/...-rages-on.html

Fire Sweeney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 05:09 PM
  #18
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,337
vCash: 500
I don't remember Hasek having a "statue of liberty"-moment. Edge Hasek.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 05:10 PM
  #19
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,609
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stank Mahovlich View Post
You can't pick and choose statistics. If Roy was as elite as Hasek, he should be able to bail out a lackluster team for one game, as Hasek did night in and night out for several seasons in Buffalo.
No, you can't just take all stats at face value. Roy cared about as much about the bronze medal game as the rest of his team did. That is to say, marginally more than a preseason NHL game. It was obvious to anyone who watched.

(Now if you want to use the fact that Roy insisted on playing the bronze game over a young and fresh Brodeur who might have actually put his all into it, that's another story).

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 05:11 PM
  #20
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,609
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Edwards View Post
The brodeurisafraud blog has a detailed analysis of the Hasek/Roye/Brodeur debate:

http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/...-rages-on.html
And it's a completely unbiased source that doesn't just throw away arguments and statistics that go against its original premises (Hasek is god, Brodeur is overrated).

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 05:15 PM
  #21
Infinite Vision*
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,861
vCash: 500
Also I think Roy is the clear cut 2nd best goalie ever. 3 Conn Smythes being the main reason.

Infinite Vision* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 05:20 PM
  #22
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 30,580
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I agree that Hasek can be overrated by the "save percentage" crowd. It is becoming canon in some places that he is the best goalie of all time, period, and I think that is simply not the case. Patrick Roy and Jacques Plante both have very good cases as the best goalie of all time, and I'd probably take them both over Hasek by the slimmest of margins
I don't think it is being canonized at all. it seems that most of us agree that the three of them are all remarkably close.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 07:07 PM
  #23
RabbinsDuck
Registered User
 
RabbinsDuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Brighton, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 4,761
vCash: 500
If you give any credit to Hasek's career before coming to the NHL, I don't think there is much debate, because in reality he has an incredible career and longevity to go with his unsurpassed dominance in his prime.

Hasek was literally the youngest professional hockey player in history, and now he is one of the oldest.

RabbinsDuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 07:13 PM
  #24
unknown33
Registered User
 
unknown33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Europe
Country: Marshall Islands
Posts: 3,648
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
And it's a completely unbiased source that doesn't just throw away arguments and statistics that go against its original premises (Hasek is god, Brodeur is overrated).
And this makes things stated there wrong?

unknown33 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2010, 07:16 PM
  #25
RabbinsDuck
Registered User
 
RabbinsDuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Brighton, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 4,761
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
And this makes things stated there wrong?
That site has a lot of merit - but the site name is off-putting and reeks of bias, even though I do think it has a lot of great content.

RabbinsDuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:58 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2017 All Rights Reserved.