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Is Hasek really the best goaltender?

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07-26-2010, 01:24 AM
  #201
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Once again does anyone think that the Sabres that Hasek played behind had any kind of TEAM DEFENSE that Roy and Broduer enjoyed?

I really think that playoff success can be attributed too much to certain goalies just like with pitchers in baseball.

Teams wins championships in team sports like hockey and baseball, maybe the closet where one guy can have a huge impact is basketball and even then it's great teams that win just ask Lebron.
Sure Roy and Brodeur were on better teams than Hasek. And Hasek played great in the playoffs.

But how many times did Hasek carry his team farther than it should have gone? Once in 1999.

How many times did Roy carry his team farther than it should have gone?

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07-26-2010, 01:40 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by greatgazoo View Post
In his prime, Hasek was out of this world good like Jimi Hendrix was to guitar playing in the late 1960's.
now that is one comp I can agree with, Hasek simply was magic, more than the teams that played in front of him, especially in that peak Buffalo period.

Roy was a great goalie and Broduer is too but they both are a step or two below what Hasek did and the caliber of teams he did his magic under.

If one where to ask the question which of the 3 goalies benefited from the teams that played in front of them, in terms of style skill level ect..., is there anyone who would put Hasek's buffalo teams where he placed his peak at over the other 2 guys.

I highly doubt it and while I understand that trying to determine the best goalie of all time is probably more subjective than either forwards where it is more simple and Dmen where it's somewhere in between, the peak and totality of what Hasek has done and the teams he did it with makes him number 1 in my books.

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07-26-2010, 02:07 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Okay, I'm apparently a month or two behind in my KHL news, but was everyone around here aware that Hasek is signed to play with Spartak Moscow next season? I remember hearing rumours (after all, he kicked ass in the Czech league last year, leading his team to the championship), but I just came across the actual "proof": link 1, link 2.

The guy is simply a freak. How do you play that style and still have working knees and a groin at age 45?? On that note, if his team wins the KHL championship next year, and then he retires for good, he will have retired from the NHL as a Cup champion, followed by retiring from the Czech league as champion, and finally from the KHL as champion... all between the ages of 42/43 and 46 (and since he played 41 games with the Red Wings that year, it's somewhat legit to consider him a/the "starting goalie" in each).
It's not probable, because Spartak isn't strong contender in KHL. I think it's more like top 10 team. But still it s considered here in CZE as just unbelievable what Hasek is doing at his age.

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07-26-2010, 02:35 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Okay, I'm apparently a month or two behind in my KHL news, but was everyone around here aware that Hasek is signed to play with Spartak Moscow next season? I remember hearing rumours (after all, he kicked ass in the Czech league last year, leading his team to the championship), but I just came across the actual "proof": link 1, link 2.

The guy is simply a freak. How do you play that style and still have working knees and a groin at age 45?? On that note, if his team wins the KHL championship next year, and then he retires for good, he will have retired from the NHL as a Cup champion, followed by retiring from the Czech league as champion, and finally from the KHL as champion... all between the ages of 42/43 and 46 (and since he played 41 games with the Red Wings that year, it's somewhat legit to consider him a/the "starting goalie" in each).
Let's not get ahead of ourselves...

But I admit it is a tantalyzing prospect, simply because you just can't count Hasek out, ever. He's a year older but moving into a much better league. Gotta respect those cojones.

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07-26-2010, 09:05 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Why Roy and Plante behind Brodeur?
Personal preference I guess. You can make a case for all 3 of them though. I will admit though, I do hold bias against Roy. Just never liked him. Although bias aside, I do believe Plante is better that Roy.

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07-26-2010, 10:16 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Sure Roy and Brodeur were on better teams than Hasek. And Hasek played great in the playoffs.

But how many times did Hasek carry his team farther than it should have gone? Once in 1999.

How many times did Roy carry his team farther than it should have gone?
If you look at the actual matchups both goalies faced in the playoffs, this is closer than you might think.

Record in playoff series for Hasek and Roy, broken down by whether their team was superior to the opponent, fairly even, or inferior.

When their team was 6 or more regular season points better:

Roy: 22-5
Hasek: 7-0

When their team was within 5 regular season points of the other team:

Roy: 8-2
Hasek: 3-3

When their team was 6 or more regular season points worse:

Roy: 2-6
Hasek: 3-5

Most of Roy's playoff edge came because his team was usually better than the other team. Also, while this doesn't fit exactly into the playoff category, most of Hasek's teams wouldn't have made the playoffs with an average goaltender.

Hasek also carried his team in the playoffs more often than in 1999. In 1998, Buffalo was 17th out of 26 teams in goals for, and allowed the most shots against in the regular season. They beat Philadelphia (6th in regular season points) and Montreal (12th in regular season points) in the playoffs, before losing to Washington (8th in regular season points). Hasek had an 0.938 SV% that playoffs. Without Hasek, Buffalo probably doesn't make the playoffs that season, so the conference finals would be a clear overachievement.

Also, in 2001, Buffalo beat a Philadelphia team that had more regular season points, goals for, and fewer shots against.

Even in 2001-02, while the Wings were better than everyone else, Hasek beat some very good teams. The Blues were probably as good as the Wings outside of the goalies, and of course Colorado and Patrick Roy were always a tough matchup. (Yes, you could say the same for Roy's playoff runs also. I'm just saying that it's not like the Wings would have won with any goalie in net that year.)

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07-26-2010, 11:35 AM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
If you look at the actual matchups both goalies faced in the playoffs, this is closer than you might think.

Record in playoff series for Hasek and Roy, broken down by whether their team was superior to the opponent, fairly even, or inferior.

When their team was 6 or more regular season points better:

Roy: 22-5
Hasek: 7-0

When their team was within 5 regular season points of the other team:

Roy: 8-2
Hasek: 3-3

When their team was 6 or more regular season points worse:

Roy: 2-6
Hasek: 3-5

Most of Roy's playoff edge came because his team was usually better than the other team. Also, while this doesn't fit exactly into the playoff category, most of Hasek's teams wouldn't have made the playoffs with an average goaltender.

Hasek also carried his team in the playoffs more often than in 1999. In 1998, Buffalo was 17th out of 26 teams in goals for, and allowed the most shots against in the regular season. They beat Philadelphia (6th in regular season points) and Montreal (12th in regular season points) in the playoffs, before losing to Washington (8th in regular season points). Hasek had an 0.938 SV% that playoffs. Without Hasek, Buffalo probably doesn't make the playoffs that season, so the conference finals would be a clear overachievement.

Also, in 2001, Buffalo beat a Philadelphia team that had more regular season points, goals for, and fewer shots against.

Even in 2001-02, while the Wings were better than everyone else, Hasek beat some very good teams. The Blues were probably as good as the Wings outside of the goalies, and of course Colorado and Patrick Roy were always a tough matchup. (Yes, you could say the same for Roy's playoff runs also. I'm just saying that it's not like the Wings would have won with any goalie in net that year.)
Bolded is a rather interesting assertion. With 16 teams making the playoffs out of 26 below average teams and goalies making the playoffs were the rule rather than the exception.

Likewise Stanley Cup Champions or finalists would fail to qualify for the playoffs the next season or within three seasons fairly often - Montreal, NYR, NJ, FL,WASH.

Washington went from non-playoff to finalist to non-playoff,Florida wasn't much different.

After the Penguins double SC wins to date, most of the good - elite teams had serious flaws. Detroit had to play around average goaltending, Colorado had spotty coaching, NJ had to squeeze offense. If the elements came together teams had a chance.

Hasek with his European background had an initial edge against the perimeter game which became prevalent starting with the short season in 1994-95. The Sabres with Nolan and later Ruff built teams around the players strengths. As long as the Sabres system held - protect the slot/crease force the offense to the perimeter. the team performed and Hasek's SV% was high. Once the league adapted then it became a question of which style was imposed by which team. Just like during the 2009-10 playoffs.

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07-26-2010, 11:43 AM
  #208
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I know Hasek didnt have the teams Roy had , but I always find it hard to go against a goaltender with 3 conne smythes , more than any player from any position.I mean the guy won 4 cups and he was MVP in 3 of them , sure the goalie always have a sort of advantage in the conne smythe race but it's not like he didnt deserve his smythes.You can argue clutchness is the most important thing for a goaltender once you compare 2 elite goalies.

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07-26-2010, 02:01 PM
  #209
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Patrick Roy was my favorite player of all time, but I can't rank him ahead of Hasek. Hasek was simply ridiculous and he beat Roy and Brodeur in nearly every category aside from wins, which is a team stat more than anything. He even dominated a league that featured both Roy and Brodeur and they were far from past their prime.

To me it's a no contest. Hasek was by far the best goalie ever.

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07-26-2010, 02:27 PM
  #210
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Its impossible to quantify this statement with any evidence whatsoever, but I think if you were to put Hasek on those dominant Avalanche teams that Roy had, or even the Devils teams that Brodeur won under, he would have had more rings and Conn Smythe awards.

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07-26-2010, 07:11 PM
  #211
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Its impossible to quantify this statement with any evidence whatsoever, but I think if you were to put Hasek on those dominant Avalanche teams that Roy had, or even the Devils teams that Brodeur won under, he would have had more rings and Conn Smythe awards.
And fewer Hart votes. Consider the following: In 2002, the PHWA elected Patrick Roy the best goaltender of the year and Jose Theodore the most valuable player of the year. That is to say, Roy was considered by the PHWA to be the better player of the two, but less valuable because he was on a decent enough team. Perhaps the PHWA would have considered Hasek's numbers in 1996-97 as a by-product of the New Jersey Devils' system and awarded the Buffalo Sabres' Martin Brodeur the Hart Trophy instead?

As you said, impossible to quantify with evidence, but the fact that Hasek played on the Buffalo Sabres and not the New Jersey Devils nor Colorado Avalanche has had its advantages as well, as he hasn't had to share the spotlight with Joe Sakic, Scott Stevens, Scott Niedermayer, Claude Lemieux, or Peter Forsberg: Five players with MVP trophies of their own.

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07-26-2010, 08:20 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
And fewer Hart votes. Consider the following: In 2002, the PHWA elected Patrick Roy the best goaltender of the year and Jose Theodore the most valuable player of the year. That is to say, Roy was considered by the PHWA to be the better player of the two, but less valuable because he was on a decent enough team. Perhaps the PHWA would have considered Hasek's numbers in 1996-97 as a by-product of the New Jersey Devils' system and awarded the Buffalo Sabres' Martin Brodeur the Hart Trophy instead?

As you said, impossible to quantify with evidence, but the fact that Hasek played on the Buffalo Sabres and not the New Jersey Devils nor Colorado Avalanche has had its advantages as well, as he hasn't had to share the spotlight with Joe Sakic, Scott Stevens, Scott Niedermayer, Claude Lemieux, or Peter Forsberg: Five players with MVP trophies of their own.
You mean Conn Smyth Trophies, not MVPs.

But you make a good point. The team a goalie plays on makes a huge difference in the perception of his ability.

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07-26-2010, 09:02 PM
  #213
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You mean Conn Smyth Trophies, not MVPs.
Conn Smythes are MVP trophies, as are Harts. Niedermayer, Lemieux, and Stevens have a Conn Smythe each, Forsberg has a Hart, and Sakic has both. Needless to say, the presence each of them brought didn't exactly do Brodeur and Roy any favors in terms of isolating their contributions to their respective squads.

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07-26-2010, 10:08 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Patrick Roy was my favorite player of all time, but I can't rank him ahead of Hasek. Hasek was simply ridiculous and he beat Roy and Brodeur in nearly every category aside from wins, which is a team stat more than anything. He even dominated a league that featured both Roy and Brodeur and they were far from past their prime.

To me it's a no contest. Hasek was by far the best goalie ever.
I simply don't see a way Roy or Brodeur can be ranked ahead of Hasek. I do place a significant emphasis on peak performance (believe Neely/Bure deserved spots in HHoF).

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07-27-2010, 07:03 AM
  #215
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I never got to see Tretiak, Sawchuck, Dryden, Plante properly. But from the guys I have been able to follow properly, Hasek was simply better at stopping pucks going into the net than anyone else. You can argue from dozens of different angles saying this that and the next thing, but nobody was better at stopping pucks than Hasek and that's what a goalie is meant to do. It's that simple for me. Afaic, after Wayne and Mario, Hasek is the best player I have ever seen.

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07-27-2010, 08:54 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by zorz View Post
It's not probable, because Spartak isn't strong contender in KHL. I think it's more like top 10 team. But still it s considered here in CZE as just unbelievable what Hasek is doing at his age.
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Let's not get ahead of ourselves...

But I admit it is a tantalyzing prospect, simply because you just can't count Hasek out, ever. He's a year older but moving into a much better league. Gotta respect those cojones.
Haha, I'm not getting ahead of anything, really. Just one of those "could you imagine" thoughts that I decided to share, having come across those articles. But seriously though, that'd be some way to wrap up a career.

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07-27-2010, 03:26 PM
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
And fewer Hart votes. Consider the following: In 2002, the PHWA elected Patrick Roy the best goaltender of the year and Jose Theodore the most valuable player of the year. That is to say, Roy was considered by the PHWA to be the better player of the two, but less valuable because he was on a decent enough team. Perhaps the PHWA would have considered Hasek's numbers in 1996-97 as a by-product of the New Jersey Devils' system and awarded the Buffalo Sabres' Martin Brodeur the Hart Trophy instead?
Hasek won the Pearson those years as well, which is for the best player, not the most valuable.

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07-27-2010, 05:43 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Conn Smythes are MVP trophies, as are Harts. Niedermayer, Lemieux, and Stevens have a Conn Smythe each, Forsberg has a Hart, and Sakic has both. Needless to say, the presence each of them brought didn't exactly do Brodeur and Roy any favors in terms of isolating their contributions to their respective squads.
Sorry. Never heard them alluded to as one type of award before.

Guess I'm easily confused.

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07-27-2010, 05:57 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Sure Roy and Brodeur were on better teams than Hasek. And Hasek played great in the playoffs.

But how many times did Hasek carry his team farther than it should have gone? Once in 1999.

How many times did Roy carry his team farther than it should have gone?
Hasek carried his team to a Gold Medal in the 1998 Olympics. And in the semi-finals the Czechs beat Canada in a shootout. Roy stop 4 of 5 and Hasek stopped all five Canadian shooters, including the classic against Lindros. He then shut out Russia 1-0 in the final. And in their semi-final, Russia beat Finland 7-4 behind 5 goals by pavel Bure.

Roy carried the Avs to the Cup in 2001. The Devils out-played the Avs but lost in 7 games due to the fact that Roy was tremendous and Brodeur was not good.

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07-27-2010, 06:07 PM
  #220
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Didt Bob McGowan in that book 100 Greatest Hockey Arguments leave Hasek out of his top 5? I'll read it again tonight and post what he said. If I remember he said something like he pulled the chute on his teams. I don't agree with that, btw.

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07-27-2010, 07:34 PM
  #221
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something i havent seen mentioned yet in this thread:

when hasek was finally on a good team(in 2002) he broke the single season playoff shutout record by 50%

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07-27-2010, 09:02 PM
  #222
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Sorry. Never heard them alluded to as one type of award before.

Guess I'm easily confused.
Really? It's kind of by definition:

The Hart Memorial Trophy is an annual award given to the player judged to be the most valuable to his team.

The Conn Smythe Trophy is an annual award given to the most valuable player for his team in the playoffs.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ricky0034
something i havent seen mentioned yet in this thread:

when hasek was finally on a good team(in 2002) he broke the single season playoff shutout record by 50%
Five goalies broke the old record (4) from 2002-2004.

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07-27-2010, 09:09 PM
  #223
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The best goaltender? It's hasek no question. If it's the best career then it's closer but it's still hasek.

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07-27-2010, 09:27 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Five goalies broke the old record (4) from 2002-2004.
hasek was the first though,just an interesting fact(and something roy has never done)

in any case if hasek had played more of his career on better teams like roy did and/or spent his entire career in the nhl then there really wouldnt be any question at all who the best goaltender was

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07-28-2010, 03:16 AM
  #225
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Hasek carried his team to a Gold Medal in the 1998 Olympics. And in the semi-finals the Czechs beat Canada in a shootout. Roy stop 4 of 5 and Hasek stopped all five Canadian shooters, including the classic against Lindros. He then shut out Russia 1-0 in the final. And in their semi-final, Russia beat Finland 7-4 behind 5 goals by pavel Bure.

Roy carried the Avs to the Cup in 2001. The Devils out-played the Avs but lost in 7 games due to the fact that Roy was tremendous and Brodeur was not good.
I know it won't make big difference in considering their careers, but in fact, Roy stopped only 3 of 4 shooters, while Hasek 5 of 5. It's because Canada went first and when Shanahan didn't score, last czech shooter didn't shoot, because it was clear who wins.


Last edited by zorz: 07-28-2010 at 03:24 AM.
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