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Rank them: Tocchet, Verbeek, Tkachuk, Roberts, O'Reilly, LeClair

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Old
07-22-2010, 06:39 PM
  #1
kmad
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Rank them: Tocchet, Verbeek, Tkachuk, Roberts, O'Reilly, LeClair

I want to know more about these guys - none of them are hall of famers but all of them are very good players. They are all good scorers who are also gritty/nasty.

How would you rank them?

Rick Tocchet
Pat Verbeek
Keith Tkachuk
Gary Roberts
Terry O'Reilly
John LeClair

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Old
07-22-2010, 06:50 PM
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BraveCanadian
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Gary Roberts gets his own category because he's Gary f'ing Roberts.

Rick Tocchet
John LeClair
Keith Tkachuk
Pat Verbeek
Terry O'Reilly


I'm biased about Gary Roberts though I think that guy was just awesome even at the tail end of his career in Toronto and Pittsburgh.. and whipping Stamkos into shape.

Really these guys are so close in many ways.

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Old
07-22-2010, 07:21 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Gaps intentional

1. John Leclair

2. Keith Tkachuk (would be right up with Leclair if it weren't for... obvious reasons)

3. Rick Tocchet
4. Gary Roberts (would swap with Tocchet if less injury-prone)
5. Terry O'Reilly

6. Pat Verbeek

Leclair has a legit shot at the HOF, though obviously not anything close to first ballot. Tkachuk would have a legit shot if it weren't for the playoff problems, but even so, he has an outside chance, I would think.

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07-22-2010, 07:56 PM
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MS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Gaps intentional

1. John Leclair

2. Keith Tkachuk (would be right up with Leclair if it weren't for... obvious reasons)

3. Rick Tocchet
4. Gary Roberts (would swap with Tocchet if less injury-prone)
5. Terry O'Reilly

6. Pat Verbeek

Leclair has a legit shot at the HOF, though obviously not anything close to first ballot. Tkachuk would have a legit shot if it weren't for the playoff problems, but even so, he has an outside chance, I would think.
Generally agree with this, although I'd rate Verbeek well ahead of O'Reilly, who is easily the worst player on the list.

O'Reilly's best season (90 points in 1978-79) is in line with everyone else on the list, but the rest of his career is nowhere close to that.

O'Reilly has only 4 seasons which work out to over 50 adjusted points, and only the 1 season which works out to over 70 or 80 adjusted points.

Verbeek, by comparison, has 12 seasons over 50 adjusted points, 7 years over 70 adjusted points, and 3 years over 80 adjusted points.

Even if O'Reilly was a little bit better in his best season, Verbeek absolutely destroys O'Reilly offensively over the course of their careers and it's impossible for me to rate O'Reilly as the superior player.

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07-22-2010, 08:21 PM
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kmad
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As a corollary - what other players would you put among these guys in terms of style and also overall ability?

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07-22-2010, 08:54 PM
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Mike Farkas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stank Mahovlich View Post
As a corollary - what other players would you put among these guys in terms of style and also overall ability?
Kevin Stevens. Whose peak I would put against anyone on that list. In fact, I believe he's the only 50 goal-200 PIM player that you're missing (Gary Roberts is the other 3 ...actually, I forget who the rest are, I'm guessing Tkachuk and maybe Verbeek?)

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07-22-2010, 08:58 PM
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Kieth Tkachuk is clearly the best player from this group, Leclair is overrated because of lindros. Never put up a 60 point season once lindros left.

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07-22-2010, 09:07 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
Generally agree with this, although I'd rate Verbeek well ahead of O'Reilly, who is easily the worst player on the list.

O'Reilly's best season (90 points in 1978-79) is in line with everyone else on the list, but the rest of his career is nowhere close to that.

O'Reilly has only 4 seasons which work out to over 50 adjusted points, and only the 1 season which works out to over 70 or 80 adjusted points.

Verbeek, by comparison, has 12 seasons over 50 adjusted points, 7 years over 70 adjusted points, and 3 years over 80 adjusted points.

Even if O'Reilly was a little bit better in his best season, Verbeek absolutely destroys O'Reilly offensively over the course of their careers and it's impossible for me to rate O'Reilly as the superior player.
You're right. I was making way too much of O'Reilly's career season without looking as much at the rest of his career.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stank Mahovlich View Post
As a corollary - what other players would you put among these guys in terms of style and also overall ability?
Kevin Stevens would be at Roberts/Tocchet level IMO.

Edit: ha, beaten to it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Kevin Stevens. Whose peak I would put against anyone on that list. In fact, I believe he's the only 50 goal-200 PIM player that you're missing (Gary Roberts is the other 3 ...actually, I forget who the rest are, I'm guessing Tkachuk and maybe Verbeek?)
Keith Tkachuk, Brendan Shanahan, Gary Roberts, Kevin Stevens. I swear I knew this off the top of my head and didn't google "50 goal 200 PIM."

According to the first hit on google, I mean my memory, Owen Nolan and Al Secord both just missed 50 and 200.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 07-22-2010 at 09:15 PM.
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Old
07-22-2010, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Kieth Tkachuk is clearly the best player from this group, Leclair is overrated because of lindros. Never put up a 60 point season once lindros left.
It's amazing that you've been on the HOH board this long and still don't know that Leclair's stats were the same when Lindros was injured as they were when he was not during seasons they played together. Or that Leclair was absolutely fantastic (as was Tkachuck) in the 1996 World Cup of Hockey without Lindros obviously.

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07-22-2010, 09:14 PM
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ushvinder
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
It's amazing that you've been on the HOH board this long and still don't know that Leclair's stats were the same when Lindros was injured as they were when he was not during seasons they played together. Or that Leclair was absolutely fantastic (as was Tkachuck) in the 1996 World Cup of Hockey without Lindros obviously.
tkachuk was more consistent over his career, still putting up good numbers in 2003 and 2004. Everything leclair did was in those 6 years. Playing good without lindros for 20-30 games dont mean anything. He never put up great numbers for a whole year without eric.

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07-22-2010, 09:20 PM
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Mike Farkas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Keith Tkachuk, Brendan Shanahan, Gary Roberts, Kevin Stevens. I swear I knew this off the top of my head and didn't google "50 goal 200 PIM."
Ah, yeah, Shanahan makes more sense than Verbeek anyway...well done

Just to elaborate on my Stevens' peak notion, I have this from another project I'm working on...(note: this is just in Pittsburgh, though I wouldn't believe his Boston, Los Angeles or Philadelphia days would help him much)

Trophies:
Hart: 8th

Post-season All-Star Nominations:
First team: 91-92*
Second team: 90-91, 92-93
"Third" team: N/A

* - 62 of 65 first place votes (!)

Top-10 scoring
Goals: 2nd, 8th
Assists: 7th
POints: 2nd

Penguins scoring (9 seasons) [1987-88 16-game season ignored]
Goals: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 5th, 5th, 8th, 8th
Assists: 2nd, 4th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 10th, 10th
Points: 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th

- Won 2 Stanley Cups (1991, 1992)

The case for Stevens: His peak is really unbelievable, even with Lemieux's help he is quite simply the best left wing in the game for a 3 or 4 year stretch. That's impressive enough right there for me. Second in goals and points in his career in the league. He leads the super-talented Penguins teams in goals 3 times and a runner-up finish in there too. Five top-5 Penguin scoring finishes is also excellent. Prototypical power forward, big, mean, major league goal-scorer, maybe not as good defensively as you'd like but still perhaps Mario Lemieux's most perfect linemate...Crosby's too (if only). He's what power forwards strived to be in his era. His playoff resume is sublime. In 1991, he led the Cup champs in goals in both the regular season and the playoffs. He was second in goals and points on the 1992 championship team. Career he had 68.11 points per 82 games in the regular season but amassed a phenomenal 84.39 points per 82 playoff games (the point differential is the 11th best in NHL history). Not that he was that close to winning a Hart trophy (8th place finish), but only four full-time LWs have ever won it: Joliat, Blake, Hull and Ovechkin - he would have been in some interesting company. A premier power forward in terms of peak...could have been in Neely-type territory if he could have hung on a little longer. Owns the highest point total in a season by an American born left winger. One of four players to ever get 50 goals and 200 PIMs in the same season. Useful even when he's not scoring for his forecheck and intimidation game. Mucker, grinder, fighter, finisher.

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07-22-2010, 09:26 PM
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Stevens was really great.

He gets underrated because he played with Lemieux but until that horrible fall face first onto the ice he was really really good.

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07-22-2010, 09:28 PM
  #13
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Leclair
Tocchet
Tkachuk
Roberts (could be as high as 2, but injuries...)
Verbeek
O'Reilly. What's this one doing on that poll?!?!?!

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Old
07-22-2010, 09:46 PM
  #14
Kyle McMahon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
tkachuk was more consistent over his career, still putting up good numbers in 2003 and 2004. Everything leclair did was in those 6 years. Playing good without lindros for 20-30 games dont mean anything. He never put up great numbers for a whole year without eric.
Leclair had the misfortune of suffering a career-derailing back injury at the exact same time that Lindros left the Flyers. As TDMM said, he maintained his production during all the time that Lindros missed. We're not talking 20-30 games, we're talking a significant number of games every single season. But hey, why let factual data get in the way of your habit of declaring innumerable players "leeches".

Leclair tops this list for me. Tkachuk always struck me, and many others, as a self-important ass, which makes the decision between him and Johnny Vermont an easy one.

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07-22-2010, 10:58 PM
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Leclair - With or without Lindros the guy was a beast for a 5-6 year stretch. Unfortunately we witnessed what he did without Lindros and history has not looked too kind on him with that one. Not close enough for the HHOF either. But I will say this, even in the late 1990s Leclair was always the guy I would have taken over Tkachuk.

Tkachuk - Never liked him personally, but it's hard pressed to not put him at #2. He is very, very close to Tocchet though.

Tocchet - Was a mean SOB and just might be the best guy on this list out of the 6 that you want on your team in the postseason.

Roberts - Was valuable even in his old age, never a superstar though and his best season is just short of the other guys above him.

Verbeek - Got to put him ahead of O'Reilly if only for the stats he accumulated. That being said, time has not been kind to Verbeek but he wasn't called the "little ball of hate" for nothing.

O'Reilly - Like another poster said, he had a big year in 1978 but never did anything close to that before or after. Tazmanial devil he was though.


Edit: I know Kevin Stevens isn't on this list, but if he were, I'd have him #1. In my honest opinion he would/should have the best shot at the HHOF over anybody else on this list although he won't because of his off-ice stuff and a rapid decline in his career. But no one had a better peak than him among these guys. Not sure if anyone would like to try and prove otherwise

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Old
07-23-2010, 12:35 AM
  #16
MS
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Ah, yeah, Shanahan makes more sense than Verbeek anyway...well done

Just to elaborate on my Stevens' peak notion, I have this from another project I'm working on...(note: this is just in Pittsburgh, though I wouldn't believe his Boston, Los Angeles or Philadelphia days would help him much)

Trophies:
Hart: 8th

Post-season All-Star Nominations:
First team: 91-92*
Second team: 90-91, 92-93
"Third" team: N/A

* - 62 of 65 first place votes (!)

Top-10 scoring
Goals: 2nd, 8th
Assists: 7th
POints: 2nd

Penguins scoring (9 seasons) [1987-88 16-game season ignored]
Goals: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 5th, 5th, 8th, 8th
Assists: 2nd, 4th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 10th, 10th
Points: 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th

- Won 2 Stanley Cups (1991, 1992)

The case for Stevens: His peak is really unbelievable, even with Lemieux's help he is quite simply the best left wing in the game for a 3 or 4 year stretch. That's impressive enough right there for me. Second in goals and points in his career in the league. He leads the super-talented Penguins teams in goals 3 times and a runner-up finish in there too. Five top-5 Penguin scoring finishes is also excellent. Prototypical power forward, big, mean, major league goal-scorer, maybe not as good defensively as you'd like but still perhaps Mario Lemieux's most perfect linemate...Crosby's too (if only). He's what power forwards strived to be in his era. His playoff resume is sublime. In 1991, he led the Cup champs in goals in both the regular season and the playoffs. He was second in goals and points on the 1992 championship team. Career he had 68.11 points per 82 games in the regular season but amassed a phenomenal 84.39 points per 82 playoff games (the point differential is the 11th best in NHL history). Not that he was that close to winning a Hart trophy (8th place finish), but only four full-time LWs have ever won it: Joliat, Blake, Hull and Ovechkin - he would have been in some interesting company. A premier power forward in terms of peak...could have been in Neely-type territory if he could have hung on a little longer. Owns the highest point total in a season by an American born left winger. One of four players to ever get 50 goals and 200 PIMs in the same season. Useful even when he's not scoring for his forecheck and intimidation game. Mucker, grinder, fighter, finisher.
I've noted before here how eerily similar the careers of Stevens and Clark Gillies are.

Nearly identical career numbers, similar style players, both rode shotgun with great players on dynasties (or a Volek away in Pittsburgh's case), both broke down early, both had similar post-season All-Star nods at LW.

Amazing what being caught smoking crack with a hooker does to your legacy as a player.

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Old
07-23-2010, 01:58 AM
  #17
seventieslord
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Tkachuk - impossible to ignore that he has a goal title.
LeClair - very close to Tkachuk.
Roberts - Oozing intangibles.
Tocchet - Great toughness and goalscoring ability.
Verbeek - not a big difference maker but good compiler.
O'Reilly - one season as a great player.

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07-23-2010, 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Career he had 68.11 points per 82 games in the regular season but amassed a phenomenal 84.39 points per 82 playoff games (the point differential is the 11th best in NHL history). .
Just wanted to address this part. The reason his ratio looks so good is mostly because he played so many playoff games in his prime and barely any in the terrrible 2nd half of his career. So while his regular season PPG plummeted, his playoff PPG didn't get a chance to. By not playing in the playoffs, he began to look (by your metric) like an even better playoff performer!

To properly assess his rise/decline in the playoffs, I would do as follows:

1989: 11 playoff games at a 1.44 ratio (0.93/0.63)
1991: 24 playoff games at a 1.27 ratio
1992: 21 games @ 0.86
1993: 12 games @ 0.86
1994: 6 games @ 0.31
1995: 12 games @ 0.92
2001: 17 games @ 0.61

aggregate weighted ratio: 0.95.

So Kevin Stevens produced, on average, at 95% of his regular season rate in the playoffs. This is actually very good, but not the 124% that your metric makes it out to be.

For the record, the calculation you use can be applied to most players as an elementary look at how they produced in the playoffs versus the regular season. But Stevens is an odd case because almost all his playoff games came when he was good.

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Old
07-23-2010, 07:33 AM
  #19
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Keith Tkachuk
Rick Tocchet
Gary Roberts
John Leclair
Pat Verbeek
Terry O'reilly

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Old
07-23-2010, 10:39 AM
  #20
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Tkachuk - impossible to ignore that he has a goal title.
Here's the top goal scorers for that season: http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?

Compare the number of empty netters Tkachuk padded his total with compared to the other top scorers that year (including LeClair), and Tkachuk's goal-scoring title looks a lot less impressive. He drops to 7th place in goals scored against actual goalies.

Right now I'd probably go with:

Tocchet
LeClair
Tkachuk
Verbeek
Roberts
O'Reilly

Although I'd rather have Roberts or O'Reilly on my team than Tkachuk or Verbeek, so maybe they should be higher.

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07-23-2010, 11:22 AM
  #21
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Leclair - HoF career with or without Lindros.

Tocchet - Above Tkatchuk purely because of outperforming him in playoffs.
Tkatchuk - Regular season hero. Useless in playoffs.

Verbeek - Mean player with lots of skill.

Roberts - Too injury prone. Very overrated because of playing well on Crosbys line and for compiling high career numbers.
O'reilly - Loved him when he played but he is just not as good as the other guys.

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07-23-2010, 01:20 PM
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For me, itís either LeClair or Tocchet.

LeClair doesnít fit in with this group. Heís a different kind of player. He doesnít have the mean streak that the other players have. He was a very good hitter, and a clean hitter. But more than anything else, he was the perfect linemate for Eric Lindros. He had that heavy shot and the skills in tight that he could finish off opportunities that Lindros generated. And LeClair was very good when it came to the dirty work to create opportunities for Lindros. (Lindros didnít need help in that regard, but it helped to have LeClair). When you look at everything, LeClairís the most impressive on this list.

Tocchet wasnít the naturally offensive player that LeClair was. He didnít have LeClairís skills in tight. Yes, Tocchetís damn close to membership in the untouched 400 goal, 1,000 point and 3,000 PIM club. But he wasnít the natural like LeClair, Tkachuk or Roberts.

The one thing about Tocchet is that he changed the complexion of a Cup champion. Heís the only guy on this list who did that, and heís probably the only guy on the list who COULD do that. In 1992, Pittsburgh was struggling. They were briefly behind the Islanders for the final playoff spot in the Patrick. When Tocchet arrived, along with Kjell Samuelsson, it was a dramatic shift for the Pens. He was exactly what Pittsburgh needed. And he formed a line with Mario and Stevens that might be the most overwhelming line of the last 20 years.

Roberts might have played at the highest level of any player on this list. From 1991 to 1994, until he suffered the neck injury, he was unstoppable. A power winger who dominated every aspect of the game. The neck injury in 1994 changed him. He was never the same player. And thatís going to happen when you play 40-ish games over three seasons. Heís third for me, based on the level of play from 1991 to 1994.

From a regular season perspective, Tkachuk is 1B with LeClair. But we all know that you play the games from October to April to play in April, May and June. Tkachukís playoff record sucks. From 1993-94 to 2003-04, he had 20 more points than games played. Goal scoring title. Tough as nails. Yet he never had more than a point-per-game in the playoffs. The post-season in which he impressed me the most was his first, when he was a force as a 19-year-old rookie for Winnipeg. His teams werenít always strong, but the bottom line is he made it past the first round of the playoffs twice. For a guy with such natural leadership skills, who, in the regular season, played playoff-style hockey from the moment he entered the league in 1992, I expect better. For whatever reason, he wasnít a guy that you could win with. And heís the only one on this list who you could say that about.

Verbeek was solid. A pint-sized goal-scorer with plenty of grit. But he never played at a level close to the top-four players. He was one of the most underrated players in the league for years, toiling in anonymity in New Jersey (back when nobody cared about the Devils) and Hartford. He doesnít fit in with this list, either, because he doesnít have the size and skill combo of the top four players. But he was a very effective player who topped 40 goals four times, and in 1997-98, his goal total nearly matched his age.

OíReilly doesnít have the skill of the other five players. He is the sixth-best player on this list, although you could make a case that he was a better player than Verbeek, and once the playoffs began, he was better than Tkachuk. Certainly a guy you'd rather have on a contender than Tkachuk. Heís the best fighter, the best leader and probably the best team player on this list. But as far as skill is concerned, heís not at the level of the other players. LeClair, Tkachuk and Roberts could dominate a game offensively. Tocchet was a feared all-round player. Verbeek has 500 goals. O'Reilly wasn't good enough to score 500 goals. When you talk about great fighters with above-average skill, OíReilly is as good as it gets. When you put him in a class with Tocchet, Tkachuk and 1991-94 Roberts, you see that OíReilly is lacking.

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Old
07-23-2010, 06:14 PM
  #23
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Leclair
Tocchet
Tkachuk
Roberts (could be as high as 2, but injuries...)
Verbeek
O'Reilly. What's this one doing on that poll?!?!?!
I like this one.

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Old
07-23-2010, 06:17 PM
  #24
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Roberts - Too injury prone. Very overrated because of playing well on Crosbys line and for compiling high career numbers.
LOL

The injury prone yes.. when you play like he did you get hurt. The rest of what you said is so wrong I don't even know where to start.

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Old
07-23-2010, 08:09 PM
  #25
jkrx
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LOL

The injury prone yes.. when you play like he did you get hurt. The rest of what you said is so wrong I don't even know where to start.
Please try.

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