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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Rank them: Tocchet, Verbeek, Tkachuk, Roberts, O'Reilly, LeClair

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Old
07-23-2010, 08:26 PM
  #26
kmad
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
LOL

The injury prone yes.. when you play like he did you get hurt. The rest of what you said is so wrong I don't even know where to start.
Argue his points all you want but try to be a little more respectful. Acting like this doesn't help your case.

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07-23-2010, 08:30 PM
  #27
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Please try.
The notion that Roberts is over-rated based on a 57-game, 28-point stretch in Pittsburgh right at the end of his career, and which is basically just a footnote to his career, is bizarre to say the least.

Anyone rating Roberts highly is doing so because of his 1989-1994 peak when he was an absolute force.

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07-23-2010, 10:06 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Please try.
Gary Roberts - the guy who won a Stanley Cup when Sidney Crosby was 2 years old is over rated because he played with Sidney at the tail end of his career as a role player and mentor?

Gary Roberts - a guy who peaked as a 40-50 goal scoring power forward and is one of the very few players to hit 50 goals and 200 pim in a season. I believe he was actually the first.

Gary Roberts - who suffered nerve damage in his neck requiring surgery.. who missed a year and a half but through persistence, complete dedication and hard work manages to not only make it back to the NHL from a forced retirement but records another 5 20+ goal seasons all the while battling injuries because he continues to play a gritty take no prisoners style of play?

Gary Roberts - who carries the Leafs on his back to a conference final as a 35 year old with two shoulders requiring surgery and puts up 19 pts in 19 games along with 56 penalty minutes..

Yeah those 57 games he played with the Pens really defined his career..

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07-23-2010, 11:45 PM
  #29
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A guy like Owen Nolan could probably be included as well.

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07-24-2010, 05:12 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Gary Roberts - the guy who won a Stanley Cup when Sidney Crosby was 2 years old is over rated because he played with Sidney at the tail end of his career as a role player and mentor?

Gary Roberts - a guy who peaked as a 40-50 goal scoring power forward and is one of the very few players to hit 50 goals and 200 pim in a season. I believe he was actually the first.

Gary Roberts - who suffered nerve damage in his neck requiring surgery.. who missed a year and a half but through persistence, complete dedication and hard work manages to not only make it back to the NHL from a forced retirement but records another 5 20+ goal seasons all the while battling injuries because he continues to play a gritty take no prisoners style of play?

Gary Roberts - who carries the Leafs on his back to a conference final as a 35 year old with two shoulders requiring surgery and puts up 19 pts in 19 games along with 56 penalty minutes..

Yeah those 57 games he played with the Pens really defined his career..
You do know there is a difference between being overrated and being bad right? I never once stated he wasn't good or great.

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07-24-2010, 07:15 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
You do know there is a difference between being overrated and being bad right? I never once stated he wasn't good or great.
Yes. However, what you said was that he was overrated because he played well on Sidney's line as what.. a 40 year old for 57 games?

You are always good at backpedaling and moving the goalposts but there is no way you can get around the fact your statement was just plain ridiculous.

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07-24-2010, 07:49 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Yes. However, what you said was that he was overrated because he played well on Sidney's line as what.. a 40 year old for 57 games?

You are always good at backpedaling and moving the goalposts but there is no way you can get around the fact your statement was just plain ridiculous.
He is overrated. What else would you have called it when some people said he was one of the best players on that Pens team. Outside of his incredibly small peak what have he accomplished?

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Gary Roberts - the guy who won a Stanley Cup when Sidney Crosby was 2 years old is over rated because he played with Sidney at the tail end of his career as a role player and mentor?
Yeah, because Roberts were a key factor on that Flames team....

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Gary Roberts - a guy who peaked as a 40-50 goal scoring power forward and is one of the very few players to hit 50 goals and 200 pim in a season. I believe he was actually the first.
Yep, excellent peak. Didn't say anything about that. He did it in the same season Stevens did I believe.

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Gary Roberts - who suffered nerve damage in his neck requiring surgery.. who missed a year and a half but through persistence, complete dedication and hard work manages to not only make it back to the NHL from a forced retirement but records another 5 20+ goal seasons all the while battling injuries because he continues to play a gritty take no prisoners style of play?
So we should rank him higher because he played with injuries? Didn't say anything about him not being persistant or willing to play. Though he was a compiler.

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Gary Roberts - who carries the Leafs on his back to a conference final as a 35 year old with two shoulders requiring surgery and puts up 19 pts in 19 games along with 56 penalty minutes..
Yeah, because alot of penalty minutes is what a team needs in the playoffs and he didn't carry them by himself. McCabe and McCauley (Mogilny) was as big of contributing factors as Roberts. Plus Curtis Joseph.


So now tell me outside of that one excellent season (50G + 200PIM) was he that great?

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07-24-2010, 08:18 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
He is overrated. What else would you have called it when some people said he was one of the best players on that Pens team. Outside of his incredibly small peak what have he accomplished?
Who said he was one of the best players on the Pens???

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Yeah, because Roberts were a key factor on that Flames team....
I only brought it up because of your stupid statement about his career being overrated by playing with the Pens for 57 games. I never said he won the Conn Smythe.

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So we should rank him higher because he played with injuries? Didn't say anything about him not being persistant or willing to play. Though he was a compiler.
Who said anything about ranking?

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Yeah, because alot of penalty minutes is what a team needs in the playoffs and he didn't carry them by himself. McCabe and McCauley (Mogilny) was as big of contributing factors as Roberts. Plus Curtis Joseph.
That was only to illustrate the style of play he was maintaining even though he needed rehab on both shoulders in the off season and was maintaining a point per game in the playoffs at the same time. At 35. And none of those guys except maybe Joseph were as big a contributing factor to that playoff run as Roberts if you saw it. Roberts was the catalyst for sure.

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So now tell me outside of that one excellent season (50G + 200PIM) was he that great?
Just the whole list I gave you.

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07-24-2010, 12:27 PM
  #34
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I think we'll all remember Mario Lemieux as that big old guy that played with Sidney Crosby on the power-play for the first couple months of his rookie season...



LeClair and Tkachuk are definitely 1 and 2. Hmm, close for me too.

Then I have to go with Roberts, Tocchet, Verbeek, then O'Reilly. Terry is a bit out of his element here with some guys who were elite scorers.

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07-24-2010, 01:58 PM
  #35
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Rick Tocchet
John LeClair
Keith Tkachuk
Pat Verbeek
Terry O'Reilly
Gary Roberts

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07-24-2010, 02:07 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by RogerRogerRoeper View Post
I think we'll all remember Mario Lemieux as that big old guy that played with Sidney Crosby on the power-play for the first couple months of his rookie season...



LeClair and Tkachuk are definitely 1 and 2. Hmm, close for me too.

Then I have to go with Roberts, Tocchet, Verbeek, then O'Reilly. Terry is a bit out of his element here with some guys who were elite scorers.
You don't see the difference between a top4 of all-time and a injury proned compiler?

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Who said he was one of the best players on the Pens???
Sadly, many people. Specially after Don Cherrys comments about him.

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I only brought it up because of your stupid statement about his career being overrated by playing with the Pens for 57 games. I never said he won the Conn Smythe.
So we agree. It was pretty irrelevant.

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Who said anything about ranking?
Ok, give him credit then.

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That was only to illustrate the style of play he was maintaining even though he needed rehab on both shoulders in the off season and was maintaining a point per game in the playoffs at the same time. At 35. And none of those guys except maybe Joseph were as big a contributing factor to that playoff run as Roberts if you saw it. Roberts was the catalyst for sure.
Everyone who watched the series remembers how good McCauley were (and ofcourse Roberts).

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Just the whole list I gave you.
What list? Compiling 20+ goals, a peak season and a good playoff performance (despite him being injured).

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07-24-2010, 02:20 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Leclair - HoF career with or without Lindros.
I wouldn't take that to the bank. A lot of factors go against Leclair in getting into the HHOF. If we have trouble thinking Kariya is in there, then you'd better not rely on Leclair either.

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07-24-2010, 04:16 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
You don't see the difference between a top4 of all-time and a injury proned compiler?
He is just chiming in with how silly your comment was by showing it to you in a little more extreme case.

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Old
07-25-2010, 04:33 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I wouldn't take that to the bank. A lot of factors go against Leclair in getting into the HHOF. If we have trouble thinking Kariya is in there, then you'd better not rely on Leclair either.
Neither would I but in my opinion he did had a HoF career. If its actually enough to get in we'll have to wait and see.

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07-26-2010, 12:32 PM
  #40
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John LeClair did not have a HOF career. When people are having trouble unanimously placing him ahead of Rick Tocchet, he is not a HOF'er. Nothing against Rick Tocchet either. But he was nowhere near a HOF'er, and neither was LeClair.

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07-26-2010, 01:07 PM
  #41
TheDevilMadeMe
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John LeClair did not have a HOF career. When people are having trouble unanimously placing him ahead of Rick Tocchet, he is not a HOF'er. Nothing against Rick Tocchet either. But he was nowhere near a HOF'er, and neither was LeClair.
Honestly, how can anyone possibly take Tocchet over LeClair if you take a step back and look at their careers? LeClair was Top 10 in scoring 4 times and Top 10 in goals 6 times, including 3 straight 50 goal seasons at the beginning of the dead puck era. He was a 1st Team All Star twice and a 2nd Team All star 3 Times.

Tocchet was never top 10 in any scoring category, never a postseason All-Star, and never hit 50 goals, despite playing the first half of his career in a very high scoring era.

Leclair has a Cup early in his career and his pretty good playoff numbers in his prime.

You can't even use "LeClair played with Lindros" because Tocchet played a few years with Mario Lemieux!

Tocchet was meaner and a better fighter, sure. But still... if LeClair isn't unanimously considered better than Tocchet, he should be.

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07-26-2010, 03:06 PM
  #42
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But still... if LeClair isn't unanimously considered better than Tocchet, he should be.
Exactly.

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