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Will Marc Savard end up in Toronto or Ottawa?

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Old
07-24-2010, 04:14 PM
  #251
grabo84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Its funny that Leafs fans think a UFA defensemen is going to get them a substantial return.
Funny how that works. Of course, Brian Campbell got a fair bit in return, and he was a rental at the deadline. Common sense suggests that your claim doesn't hold water.

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07-24-2010, 04:16 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by song4thedeaf View Post
2 years ago Boston had the #2nd best offense... last year worse...

Boston won't be near the bottom 5 in goals, if you really believe that, its laughable.
This is almost entirely based on their style of play. Boston played a 1-2-2 all season last year. They need to change that.

Hartsburg coaching Ottawa took the leagues best offense down to 2.07 GPG or something around that. Clouston took over and immediately it was 2.75-3.00 GPG after he put his system in place.

It's weird because Boston's coach had them playing a more open offensive system the year before but clearly he changed his mind about things. Hopefully now that he's got Horton and Seguin he'll open it up. Otherwise he's going to play the same defense first crap he did this past year and you'll struggle to score goals.

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07-24-2010, 04:20 PM
  #253
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More supporting evidence for my statements above.

1. Washington Capitals - Offensive system. A lot of pressure on the opposition. Puck possession and offensive freedom.

2. Calgary Flames - Defensive system. A 1-2-2 all game long and that's why they score so few goals it's not just their roster that's the problem.

Honestly people need to realize GPG & GAA for teams depends much more on the system the coach is using than anything else. If a coach demands defense first and only sends in one forechecker with the other four guys lining up in the neutral zone you're not going to be icing a high-scoring team no matter what you do.

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07-24-2010, 04:22 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Funny how that works. Of course, Brian Campbell got a fair bit in return, and he was a rental at the deadline. Common sense suggests that your claim doesn't hold water.
Two things:

Number one, probably the most important, the trade deadline.

Second, a 1st round pick from a contender(25th-30th), and Steve Bernier. That is substantial?

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07-24-2010, 04:44 PM
  #255
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Just ignore the Leafs fans posts seriously. Their minds work in magical ways.

I think the Leafs will finish somewhere in the bottom 10 in the league. If they're really lucky they might finish 10th-11th in the East and just miss out on the dance as usual.

Logic for my claim:
1. The Leafs once again have many new faces up front. This means a period of building chemistry, learning the system, and overall adjustment. Usually this results in an early season slump vs. teams that are more put together and organized.

2. If the Leafs move Kaberle that's another new face for the forwards and a huge shuffle in the top four defense. That's a bunch of chemistry to work out.

3. Komi hasn't played at the NHL level in basically a year. That's going to be a huge adjustment. He might very will suck for the entire season just trying to get himself up to speed. Not that he had much speed to begin with.

4. If Kaberle is dealt the Leafs ability to move the puck out of their own end will take a big hit. That means more difficulty starting the offense. He's also a key to their PP. Phaneuf will fill some of that void but won't bring the lateral movement at the top that Kaberle brings.

5. Stajan, Steen, Stempniak, Poni, Hagman, Stalberg, and Antropov all shown the door over the past couple years. That's a lot of top nine forwards and 20-25 goal scorers sent away. It's arguable the guys currently on the forward roster aren't all that much better than this group. Grabo, Versteeg, Kessel, Kulemin, Bozak Armstrong, and potentially Kadri if he's ready. The only thing you can really say about this new group is that their younger and different people. Whether they're that much better remains to be seen.

The Leafs have chosen to do the same thing they always do. Acquire new talent by dealing away prospects and picks and signing UFA's. This hasn't worked in the past and I don't see it working now. Toronto will be nothing more than a mediocre team this year and in future unless they change the strategy to focus on the draft. Leaf fans can say whatever they want but their lineup in the top 9 forwards is laughable compared to most other teams in the NHL. Your defense is largely overrated by the fan base which is based on past achievements rather than recent ones. Phaneuf, Komi, Beau all played big effective roles for other teams. They have yet to do so for the Leafs. In fact all of taken a sharp downturn since their arrival. Will they level off? Will they just continue to get worse? Time will tell but all three have been heavily overrated since their arrival. His NHL peers voted Phaneuf as the most overrated player in hockey. That says something. Enjoy the 6.5M anchor of a contract weighing the Leafs down for years to come!

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07-24-2010, 04:53 PM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Two things:

Number one, probably the most important, the trade deadline.

Second, a 1st round pick from a contender(25th-30th), and Steve Bernier. That is substantial?
Steve Bernier was highly thought of at the time. Obviously, that's changed, but still.

As for the first point, are you trying to say that Kaberle will be worth more on deadline day? If you are, I don't find that credible at all. A team that trades for him now gets him for an entire year, and gets a chance to integrate him into their system. Trading for him at the deadline is a gamble. His salary is low enough to not be a significant issue.

And at any rate, my original point still stands - you low-balled the Bruins with your original offer from the sens, and obviously value Kaberle less than the Leafs do. For the record, I think the biggest problem with your post is that the Bruins want to open up cap space - Kaberle for Savard doesn't accomplish that, and the 1M of cap space you offered in the Sens deal isn't what they need.

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07-24-2010, 05:31 PM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Steve Bernier was highly thought of at the time. Obviously, that's changed, but still.
Not by the San Jose management. And funnily enough, he was shipped out the following summer for a third round pick. So in conclusion, all that Buffalo got for Campbell was a 1st and a 3rd, low ones at that.

Quote:
As for the first point, are you trying to say that Kaberle will be worth more on deadline day? If you are, I don't find that credible at all. A team that trades for him now gets him for an entire year, and gets a chance to integrate him into their system. Trading for him at the deadline is a gamble. His salary is low enough to not be a significant issue.
You have to understand markets to realize that players, particularly defensemen, come at an inflated price during the deadline. Right now, value for trades isn't that high, at the deadline, it is much higher. A year of Kaberle vs. half a season of Kaberle plus the playoffs is not that much different. Besides, teams at the deadline have a much better picture of their needs, their standings in the league, and their position to make a trade or improvement. Paying assets for a year of Kaberle is just as much of a risk as a contending team paying assets for half a season of Kaberle.

Quote:
And at any rate, my original point still stands - you low-balled the Bruins with your original offer from the sens, and obviously value Kaberle less than the Leafs do. For the record, I think the biggest problem with your post is that the Bruins want to open up cap space - Kaberle for Savard doesn't accomplish that, and the 1M of cap space you offered in the Sens deal isn't what they need.
I don't even know what you are talking about here.


Last edited by guest1467: 07-24-2010 at 05:37 PM.
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07-24-2010, 06:38 PM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
I don't even know what you are talking about here.
I assumed you had made the proposal that I was originally responding to. Still, I think we've both made our points clear, so I'm not going to repeat myself. The bottom line is, I don't agree that Shannon, Foligno, and Campoli are as valuable as Kaberle, either in the context of a trade to the Bruins or around the league. That goes for now or at the deadline.

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07-24-2010, 07:04 PM
  #259
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Maybe s prospect from Ottawa for savored or kulimen and a prospect or draft pick for savard




I think he could go to either one but i think. Tat Ottawa maybe

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07-24-2010, 10:16 PM
  #260
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I think Ottawa wants it more.

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07-24-2010, 11:15 PM
  #261
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neither.

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07-24-2010, 11:52 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by sgupca View Post
Caputi to get Savard? what? i guess thats not an overpayment...I'm a die hard leaf fan, and it would cost more than Caputi.

Caputi + +

probably a similar deal to the Versteeg deal.

Caputi + Mikus + Ryan or something.
Nope your wrong. Burke is not about to start trading for older players to take away spots for our younger players. Despite what haters say this is a young teame growing together for the future. Savard at this time does not make sense, he's too risky.

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Old
07-25-2010, 10:09 AM
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Its funny that Leafs fans think a UFA defensemen is going to get them a substantial return.
Take a team like LA for example. Lost out on Kovalchuk and they still want to step up this upcoming season and the have some big RFA's to sign next summer like Doughty, Johnson, and Simmons. A top level talent like Kaberle on a one year deal fits in pretty nicely in that type of scenario. Worst case he leaves and they have $4 million to spend elsewhere. That is probably why there are at least 6 offers on the table.

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07-25-2010, 10:32 AM
  #264
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Take a team like LA for example. Lost out on Kovalchuk and they still want to step up this upcoming season and the have some big RFA's to sign next summer like Doughty, Johnson, and Simmons. A top level talent like Kaberle on a one year deal fits in pretty nicely in that type of scenario. Worst case he leaves and they have $4 million to spend elsewhere. That is probably why there are at least 6 offers on the table.
Link???

What are the offers??

Who are the players coming back??

In a deal with LA what would you expect the return to be for a rental like Kaberle??

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07-25-2010, 10:34 AM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by song4thedeaf View Post
Link???

What are the offers??

Who are the players coming back??

In a deal with LA what would you expect the return to be for a rental like Kaberle??
Burke said there was 6 offers in his news conference from Vancouver, a week ago. Obviously, he wasn't going to say what they were.

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07-25-2010, 10:46 AM
  #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by song4thedeaf View Post
Link???

What are the offers??

Who are the players coming back??

In a deal with LA what would you expect the return to be for a rental like Kaberle??
I'm going to adopt the Leafs fan mentality here.

It's got to be a soft deal with LA,since Burke loves the NCAA players I'd say Kaberle for Ray Kaunisto. You know Ray, the 23 year old from Northern Michigan U.

Or if Burke really wants to go all out and get his top 6 winger then I'd say Kaberle for Justin Williams. Although, Burke may have to add a pick to even things out. Let's say a 3rd rounder. Yep, Kaberle+3rd for Justin Williams and the Leafs have their roster all set to go.

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