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Old
07-23-2010, 03:30 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
Dale Weise, Dane Byers, Brodie Dupont, Roman Horak, maybe Didiomete
Hagelin, Werek, Kreider, Grachev, Wilson, Bourque.

In all honesty in the next 2 years I would think the following players could do well on the 3rd line/PKing:

Weise
Byers
Hagelin
Prust
Dupont
Wilson
Kreider(if they absolutely need him to fill the role)

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07-23-2010, 03:31 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
Hagelin, Werek, Kreider, Grachev, Wilson, Bourque.

In all honesty in the next 2 years I would think the following players could do well on the 3rd line/PKing:

Weise
Byers
Hagelin
Prust
Dupont
Wilson
Kreider(if they absolutely need him to fill the role)
with Kreider's skating and speed, i can see him on the PK when down by a goal..

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07-23-2010, 03:34 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Weise and Prust replacing Callahan? Not even close.

Both of those guys are fourth line players, Weise with an outside chance of being a third liner. But neither of them are approaching the 20-25 goals that Callahan brings.

To me they serve different roles on different lines. But your response is exactly what I hear from others when we talk about trading Staal in other threads. In the end we end up replacing the guy we traded with someone who isn't nearly as good. I just don't know I feel comfortable with that, even if I really like a player like Neal.
But the thing is, Neal would be replacing Callahan, pushing down another player like MZA or Prospal.

Before:

Prospal-Christensen-Gaborik
Dubinsky-Anisimov-MZA
Callahan-Drury-Avery
Prust-Boyle-Boogard

After:

Neal-Christensen-Gaborik
Dubinsky-Anisimov-MZA
Prospal-Drury-Avery
Prust-Boyle-Boogard

I meant in the future he is replaceable from within as this organization in the future. Adding a future 30 goal scorer with the system this team has is greater than a 20 goal scoring hard-working winger.

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07-23-2010, 03:35 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
Dale Weise, Dane Byers, Brodie Dupont, Roman Horak, maybe Didiomete
LOL, not even close.

Dale Weise projects as a fourth liner, who might be a third liner.

Dane Byers hasn't been able to crack this lineup yet, despite being a year younger than Callahan.

Dupont hasn't even developed a an AHL level scoring threat yet, let alone shown he is an NHL player.

Horak, Didomete? Maybe in about 3 or 4 years, maybe.

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07-23-2010, 03:39 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
But the thing is, Neal would be replacing Callahan, pushing down another player like MZA or Prospal.

I meant in the future he is replaceable from within as this organization in the future. Adding a future 30 goal scorer with the system this team has is greater than a 20 goal scoring hard-working winger.
MZA hasn't even played an NHL shift yet and plays a game that is nothing like Callahan's.

Prospal for Callahan? Come on, be serious now.

And your last statement is exactly my point, we don't have anyone in this organization who replaces Callahan right now. Which reinforces my point that once again, we are jumping the gun.

There's this sense of overeagerness to make a trade based on the assumption that one of the kids in the system will inherently replace the talent we just traded. It just doesn't work like that. Those are the kind of moves that work out in the EA's NHL series, they seldom work in the NHL.

Simply put, we're not at that point yet. That's not to say we never will, but we're getting a little too far ahead of ourselves, here, in 2010.

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07-23-2010, 03:40 PM
  #31
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If there is one RFA, I'd want the Rangers to target... It would be James Neal. This guy is such a great player and one of my favorites not on the Rangers.

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07-23-2010, 03:42 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
MZA hasn't even played an NHL shift yet and plays a game that is nothing like Callahan's.

Prospal for Callahan? Come on, be serious now.

And your last statement is exactly my point, we don't have anyone in this organization who replaces Callahan right now. Which reinforces my point that once again, we are jumping the gun.

There's this sense of overeagerness to make a trade based on the assumption that one of the kids in the system will inherently replace the talent we just traded. It just doesn't work like that. Those are the kind of moves that work out in the EA's NHL series, they seldom work in the NHL.

Simply put, we're not at that point yet. That's not to say we never will, but we're getting a little too far ahead of ourselves, here, in 2010.

Normally I agree with you but I don't here. If the Rangers system can not replace a 15 goal and 35 point forward who works hard and hits then there is something wrong with the system. I like Callahan a lot but he is no where near untouchable.

For a team full of 3rd liners I would think moving 1 3rd liner + a pick for a 2nd liner would be a good move.

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07-23-2010, 03:50 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
Normally I agree with you but I don't here. If the Rangers system can not replace a 15 goal and 35 point forward who works hard and hits then there is something wrong with the system. I like Callahan a lot but he is no where near untouchable.

For a team full of 3rd liners I would think moving 1 3rd liner + a pick for a 2nd liner would be a good move.
Simply put, they cant at this point in time. If there was a young player that was capable of filling that role at the NHL level, they'd be up here right now.

I dont mind people who drink the prospect kool-aid and preach patience, but taking it a step further and penciling in prospects for the roles that guys like Callahan are performing well in right now is crazy-talk. Hell, half the prospects mentioned in this thread will never even play an NHL game.

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07-23-2010, 03:54 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Simply put, they cant at this point in time. If there was a young player that was capable of filling that role at the NHL level, they'd be up here right now.

I dont mind people who drink the prospect kool-aid and preach patience, but taking it a step further and penciling in prospects for the roles that guys like Callahan are performing well in right now is crazy-talk. Hell, half the prospects mentioned in this thread will never even play an NHL game.
It wouldnt have to be right now. I showed it earlier in the thread that this seasons line-up, with the addition of Neal another player would be moved down lower in the line-up.

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07-23-2010, 03:59 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
Normally I agree with you but I don't here. If the Rangers system can not replace a 15 goal and 35 point forward who works hard and hits then there is something wrong with the system. I like Callahan a lot but he is no where near untouchable.

For a team full of 3rd liners I would think moving 1 3rd liner + a pick for a 2nd liner would be a good move.
Ryan Callahan has scored 22 and 19 goals the last two seasons on a low scoring team while also playing as an Olympian, but I do love how we've suddenly downgraded him to a 15 goal guy.

Which doesn't even begin to address the fact,that why in the world Dallas would move a young power forward, who is the best player in the deal, for a mere 15 goal scorer and a pick.

To me we've just shot down our own proposal.

Furthermore, not one of the players you just named brings what Ryan Callahan does. Sorry, but there's not spinning that. If there was, they'd already be playing for us, or Dallas wouldn't mind taking them instead of Callahan.

Additionally, the last thing we need to be doing is trading the pieces we have that work. Those are the guys we should be adding to, not using as trade chips.

I fully understand the fact that as a "prospects" board we're always going to operate under the assumption that the prospect we have in the system is better than the player we have in the pros. But it just doesn't work that way. That's exactly how you end up with Mike York and Jamie Lundmark, instead of Marc Savard.

Ryan Callahan isn't a star, but he's not an easy player to replace. That's exactly why he is an olympian and exactly why players like him are always in demand. If guys Byers, Dupont, etc. were so close to replacing him, they would be the ones teams want because of their salaries.

This whole proposal as way too many assumptions and way too many contradictions for my taste.

You just said Callahan was a 15 goal, 35 point. So if I'm Dallas, why in the world would I trade for him when I could be getting far more for my 23 year old budding power forward?

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07-23-2010, 04:00 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
It wouldnt have to be right now. I showed it earlier in the thread that this seasons line-up, with the addition of Neal another player would be moved down lower in the line-up.
And that prospoal was responded to.

You're two solutions of inserting MZA or Propsal are not really solutions I'm prepared to go with.

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07-23-2010, 04:12 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Ryan Callahan has scored 22 and 19 goals the last two seasons on a low scoring team while also playing as an Olympian, but I do love how we've suddenly downgraded him to a 15 goal guy.

Which doesn't even begin to address the fact,that why in the world Dallas would move a young power forward, who is the best player in the deal, for a mere 15 goal scorer and a pick.

To me we've just shot down our own proposal.

Furthermore, not one of the players you just named brings what Ryan Callahan does. Sorry, but there's not spinning that. If there was, they'd already be playing for us, or Dallas wouldn't mind taking them instead of Callahan.

Additionally, the last thing we need to be doing is trading the pieces we have that work. Those are the guys we should be adding to, not using as trade chips.

I fully understand the fact that as a "prospects" board we're always going to operate under the assumption that the prospect we have in the system is better than the player we have in the pros. But it just doesn't work that way. That's exactly how you end up with Mike York and Jamie Lundmark, instead of Marc Savard.

Ryan Callahan isn't a star, but he's not an easy player to replace. That's exactly why he is an olympian and exactly why players like him are always in demand. If guys Byers, Dupont, etc. were so close to replacing him, they would be the ones teams want because of their salaries.

This whole proposal as way too many assumptions and way too many contradictions for my taste.

You just said Callahan was a 15 goal, 35 point. So if I'm Dallas, why in the world would I trade for him when I could be getting far more for my 23 year old budding power forward?

Your argument before was not whether Dallas would move Neal for Callahan +. It was that Callahan could not be replaced. You still seem to not want to make a deal like this because Callahan is the more valuable player to this team(which i do not agree with at all).


Callahan is a valuable player but just because he is one of the first home-grown players to have value does not mean he has to be held onto forever. If a trade comes up that improves the team, like the deal above, I see no reason to not make it.

Also, I will take the words of the Ranger scouts over your take on MZA(who hasn't played a game in the NHL). They seem to think he is skilled enough and ready for the NHL.

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07-23-2010, 04:42 PM
  #38
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A lot of posters on the board have this crazy mindset that if we trade a player then there will be a guy in Hartford that will no doubt take his place.

It's always McD will replace Staal or Weise will replace Cally or that Kreider or Stepan will come right in and replace Dubinsky.

People need to stop penciling guys into our lineup that have proven nothing in the NHL. You don't trade an asset unless you know for sure you can replace that asset. To pretend that rookies and prospects are ready and able right now to step into the lineup is both silly and terrible asset management.

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07-23-2010, 04:48 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtrap View Post
A lot of posters on the board have this crazy mindset that if we trade a player then there will be a guy in Hartford that will no doubt take his place.

It's always McD will replace Staal or Weise will replace Cally or that Kreider or Stepan will come right in and replace Dubinsky.

People need to stop penciling guys into our lineup that have proven nothing in the NHL. You don't trade an asset unless you know for sure you can replace that asset. To pretend that rookies and prospects are ready and able right now to step into the lineup is both silly and terrible asset management.
Neal replaces Callahan........That is an upgrade.

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07-23-2010, 04:52 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
Neal replaces Callahan........That is an upgrade.
Thanks for missing the point completely...I'm just glad it didn't hit you straight in the face...

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07-23-2010, 04:59 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by dtrap View Post
Thanks for missing the point completely...I'm just glad it didn't hit you straight in the face...
I understand your point. Did you understand mine?

Because mine goes along with the topic of the thread.

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07-23-2010, 04:59 PM
  #42
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and actually just a side note....Neal does not replace Callahan...


Neal, like you stated, would go on the top line with Gabby. So that moves say, Prospal, down to line 2 to take the spot Cally left open.

That's all good and fine for scoring goals (maybe), but then you lose your heart and soul and your best PK'er. So Neal doesn't totally replace Cally.

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07-23-2010, 05:03 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by dtrap View Post
and actually just a side note....Neal does not replace Callahan...


Neal, like you stated, would go on the top line with Gabby. So that moves say, Prospal, down to line 2 to take the spot Cally left open.

That's all good and fine for scoring goals (maybe), but then you lose your heart and soul and your best PK'er. So Neal doesn't totally replace Cally.
Neal provides energy as well. He isn't a Blake Wheeler power forward.

I know he is important to this team, I just think that this team needs to solidify its more important positions first as a player like Callahan can be had in the UFA market or through trade(see Buff, Ladd, Armstrong).

Good teams solidify their skill positions and rotate secondary players through. I would rather the Rangers start to take a step towards solidifying their top-6 scoring and then search for the secondary players after that.

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07-23-2010, 05:05 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
I understand your point. Did you understand mine?

Because mine goes along with the topic of the thread.
Read my last post about Neal not being able to completely replace Cally.

If you were replacing Gabby with Hossa or something like that, yeah I gotcha. They score about the same and they play about the same level of defense.

But with Neal, he doesn't do everything that Cally does. Sure he scores more, but he isn't a better leader and he sure as hell isn't a better PK'er. I'm just saying that you can assume because Neal has better stats, he will replace everything that Cally does. You are going to need to fill in some other blanks and obviously there is no one in Hartford ready to do that because they would either be a) in the NHL or b) the ones being asked for by other teams

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07-23-2010, 05:11 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by dtrap View Post
Read my last post about Neal not being able to completely replace Cally.

If you were replacing Gabby with Hossa or something like that, yeah I gotcha. They score about the same and they play about the same level of defense.

But with Neal, he doesn't do everything that Cally does. Sure he scores more, but he isn't a better leader and he sure as hell isn't a better PK'er. I'm just saying that you can assume because Neal has better stats, he will replace everything that Cally does. You are going to need to fill in some other blanks and obviously there is no one in Hartford ready to do that because they would either be a) in the NHL or b) the ones being asked for by other teams
I totally understand that and I am not saying he will replace everything Callahan does very well but Neal does things that Callahan can not do. I just value what Neal brings more in the long-run compared to Callahan. Thats all.

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07-23-2010, 05:20 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
I totally understand that and I am not saying he will replace everything Callahan does very well but Neal does things that Callahan can not do. I just value what Neal brings more in the long-run compared to Callahan. Thats all.
I get your point...I just guess if Cally wasn't going be traded for Heatley then in no way should he be traded for James Neal.

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07-23-2010, 05:29 PM
  #47
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we don't make good trading partners for neal because get over it were not trading cally or dubi.

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07-23-2010, 05:42 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
Hagelin, Werek, Kreider, Grachev, Wilson, Bourque.

In all honesty in the next 2 years I would think the following players could do well on the 3rd line/PKing:

Weise
Byers
Hagelin
Prust
Dupont
Wilson
Kreider(if they absolutely need him to fill the role)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
Normally I agree with you but I don't here. If the Rangers system can not replace a 15 goal and 35 point forward who works hard and hits then there is something wrong with the system. I like Callahan a lot but he is no where near untouchable.

For a team full of 3rd liners I would think moving 1 3rd liner + a pick for a 2nd liner would be a good move.
Why isn't Callahan a 2nd liner in your book? And why do you label him as a 15G forward?

Imo, with the exception of Weise, nobody on that list you provided will become half the player Callahan is. Not even close. You're severely underestimating Ryan's game if you think a future AHL'r like Dupont will ever come close to replicating his production. On and off the scoresheet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
Your argument before was not whether Dallas would move Neal for Callahan +. It was that Callahan could not be replaced. You still seem to not want to make a deal like this because Callahan is the more valuable player to this team(which i do not agree with at all).


Callahan is a valuable player but just because he is one of the first home-grown players to have value does not mean he has to be held onto forever. If a trade comes up that improves the team, like the deal above, I see no reason to not make it.

Also, I will take the words of the Ranger scouts over your take on MZA(who hasn't played a game in the NHL). They seem to think he is skilled enough and ready for the NHL.
Enver Lisin is thrice as talented as Callahan. Skates better too. Why is he 150% less effective a hockey player?

There's no guarantee MZA's game translates well in the NHL. It's a gamble. Even for professional scouts.

If someone suggested we should trade Staal, because we have McDonagh, what would your reaction be? Even if we were getting a better player than Marc.

I'd also like to know why Dallas would consider moving Neal for Callahan +? What is that +? If the roles were reversed, would you consider that swap if you were Dallas? Probably not.

Unless that + is something significant, it's probably not worth it from their pov. And unless I'm mistaken, we're in no position to start moving our young assets, especially our few blue-chippers.

I like Neal and all. Love him, actually. But this swap doesn't make much sense from either side.

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07-23-2010, 06:03 PM
  #49
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Good trade value I guess. I love Cally, but I'd take Neal over him in a heartbeat.

It seems like one of Cally/Dubi will be gone after next season (my guess is Dubi though).

Why? We shouldnt have any problems trading Rozy to make room.

I would have no issues what so ever in trading Cally for Neal. 51 goals in first 2 NHL seasons as a 21 and 22 year old ... not bad.

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07-23-2010, 06:08 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
Neal replaces Callahan........That is an upgrade.
They are two different types of players who play two different wings.

Callahan is a second/third line RW, Neal is (at least) a second line LW, more than likely a first line LW.

The expectations and roles are different. Just because I trade Callahan for Neal, doesn't mean Neal replaces Callahan. What it does it upgrade the our top six LW spot.

Your solution for replacing Callahan is either shifting MZA to his slot, completely different player, or having one from a list of minor league players replace him.

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