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MLD 2010 Sir Allan Montagu Semi Final: #1 Florida Hammerheads vs. #4 St. Mary’s Huski

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Old
07-28-2010, 09:32 AM
  #51
markrander87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post

The formula is based on:




The formula varies by year due to sample size, but if we use it roughly estimate:

Tardiff's three best WHA seasons would translate to
1976: 130 points (1st)
1977: 60 points (45th)
1978: 100 points (4th)
1979: 94 points (9th)

The sample size skews things too much in years due to small sample sizes in all but the last year. Both 76 and 77 defy logic because Tardif was neither as good as 1st nor as bad as 45th)
Why not?? Syl Apps came 45th in NHL scoring in 1976-77.

Any type of formula that adjusts Tardif to a first place finish is flawed and should be thrown out the window.


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07-28-2010, 12:30 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Why not?? Syl Apps came 45th in NHL scoring in 1976-77.

Any type of formula that adjusts Tardif to a first place finish is flawed and should be thrown out the window.
Because if you accept 45th you'd also have to accept the 1st, so as you ignored in the rest of the post I came up with a more logical formula that accurately reflected the point level he put up in 79-80.

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07-28-2010, 12:32 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Ask and you shall receive

LOH
Checker and hard worker does not explicitly mean physical.

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07-28-2010, 12:43 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Where is the proof regarding all of this??? You can just select older era players and assume based on high goal totals in smaller leagues automatically means they are great puck movers as well? This is starting to bother me. It seems like the logical theory for future ATD and MLD are to just draft all players pre 1920's and then find one random quote from a newspaper that we can base his entire play on. We have nothing negative to say about them because we've never seen them play, so its a win-win situation. We draft players like Yashin,Parise,Bure etc.. and everybody is so quick to jump on the negatives because we've all seen them play and there is a million more media sources on them.
Admittedly modern players have more to criticize, but it's not fair to throw out the older players. And it's not one random quote, it's statistical information and bios put together by hockey historians. And if you think so lowly of the era, why do you have a guy who wasn't even a pro in your top 6?

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
It seems like a bit of a cop out when we have next to nothing on three of your top 6 forwards and three of your defenseman, and we can place so much value on such minimal information.
There's as much on Halderson and McNamara as a lot of ATD pre-1930s player aside from the superstars. There's more on them than Leroy Goldsworthy.

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I have an SIHR account and when I see names like: Shirley Davidson, Norman Rankin, William Barlow and William Dobby finish ahead of Dolly Swift in scoring it really makes me shake my head. Swift had 4 seasons where he finished in top 15 in scoring why is this so impressive??
No, Dolly Swift finished top 3 in scoring 5 times and has a retro hart. He had the second most goals of the decade (and the most from 1887 - 1890).

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
So is he taking Jonathans spot? Im not sure what you mean by this.
Depends on how the series goes. I'm not closing any options, but not to start the series.

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I just googled Statistical smoke

Thats what it gave me.
So basically unless you find an answer that doesn't suit your needs, it's unacceptable. Stalberg wanted to know how to measure WHA success, and so probably the most respected person for hockey statistical analytics has a formula based on a reasonable study. I lowered the formula to compensate for sample size and even lowered it again to see how the results would be under Seventies' suggestion. The formula at 0.65 produces significantly lower results than his 79-80 season, but I still used it. There's no way the WHA was more than 35% worse than the NHL considering they could beat NHL teams in exhibition games

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
It seems Ironic that we are rewarding Tardif for leaving the best league in the world to take more money in the WHA. 5 impressive seasons in the WHA beating out the likes of: Terry Rushkowski, Chris Bordeleau, and Rich Leduc for top 10's in scoring does not warrant such high praises.
What about Bobby Hull, Anders Hedberg, Ulf Nilsson, Vaclav Nedomansky, Real Cloutier, Gordie Howe, Andre Lacroix, Kent Nilsson, and Mark Howe?


Last edited by Hedberg: 07-28-2010 at 04:05 PM.
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07-28-2010, 01:21 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
Because if you accept 45th you'd also have to accept the 1st, so as you ignored in the rest of the post I came up with a more logical formula that accurately reflected the point level he put up in 79-80.

Im not willing to accept the 45th either. It's giving Tardiff too much credit for something that never happened.


Quote:
Admittedly modern players have more to criticize, but it's not fair to throw out the older players. And it's not one random quote, it's statistical information and bios put together by hockey historians.
Quote:
There's as much on Halderson and McNamara as a lot of ATD pre-1930s player aside from the superstars.
Where is it?? Show it to us. We questioned your puck winning ability on your 2nd line and you gave us a one line quote on Ridpath telling us he was fast and a good stick handler??


Quote:
No, Dolly Swift finished top 3 in scoring 5 times and has a retro hart. He had the second most goals of the decade (and the most from 1887 - 1890). He was a key player in 6 Stanley Cup Wins.

The decade...thats 4 years. Here is his profile from SIHR can you show us the other statistics you are using.

Skater Statistics Regular Season Playoffs

Season Team League No. GP G A P PIM GP G A P PIM


1886-1887 Montreal Victorias AHAC 3 5 * -- 5 * -- -- -- -- -- --

1888-1889 Quebec H/C AHAC 1 0 -- 0 -- -- -- -- -- --

1893-1894 Quebec H/C AHAC 8 10 -- 10 -- -- -- -- -- --

1894-1895 Quebec H/C AHAC 6 10 -- 10 -- -- -- -- -- --

1895-1896 Quebec H/C AHAC 8 8 -- 8 -- -- -- -- -- --

1896-1897 Quebec H/C AHAC 8 6 -- 6 -- -- -- -- -- --

1897-1898 Quebec H/C AHAC 6 3 -- 3 -- -- -- -- -- --

1898-1899 Quebec H/C CAHL 1 0 -- 0 -- -- -- -- -- --

Totals 41 42 0 42 0 0 0 0



Quote:
So basically unless you find an answer that doesn't suit your needs, it's unacceptable. Stalberg wanted to know how to measure WHA success, and so probably the most respected person for hockey statistical analytics has a formula based on a reasonable study. I lowered the formula to compensate for sample size and even lowered it again to see how the results would be under Seventies' suggestion. The formula at 0.65 produces significantly lower results than his 79-80 season, but I still used it. There's no way the WHA was more than 35% worse than the NHL considering they could beat NHL teams in exhibition games

Stalberg and I were just laughing at how terrible them metric is. Im sorry your formula equates Marc Tardif as finishing first in the NHL in points!!! Come on if that isnt a warning sign on how inaccurate this formula is then I dont know what is. He played in the NHL for 8 seasons, 2 of which were during his prime and he has zero top 10 finishes in any category

Marc Tardiff Career Point totals in the NHL

In Marc Tardiffs 5 full NHL seasons (Min 70 games) his point totals are: 54th, 47th, 70th, 64th, and 115th.

Keeping in mind Tardif only played 6 seasons in the WHA so his NHL years should have way better finishes than that for "The best offensive player in the series".



Quote:
What about Bobby Hull, Anders Hedberg, Ulf Nilsson, Vaclav Nedomansky, Real Cloutier, Gordie Howe, Andre Lacroix, Kent Nilsson, and Mark Howe?
Nedomansky?? HE's on your list haha, Bobby Hull, Gordie Howe were both well into their 40's, MArk Howe was a defenseman and he played in the WHA when he was 18-23 hardly his prime. Kent Nilsson only played two years in the WHA as a 21-22 year old and then went on to have a great NHL Career with two top 10's in points (Which is why he deserves to be a first liner)



You keep telling us you have the advantage because you have home-ice, but you have yet to indicate anymore match ups??

Duncan Keith is being severly overrated yes he's had two great seasons, but he's only been in the league for 5 years so lets keep in mind Career Value

Do you have any information regarding your centreman and their ability to win draws?? We plan on having the Rogers line with Sheppard and the Ricci line out for all defensive faceoffs in our own end which will be a huge advantage.


Regarding Leroy Goldsworthy, after your poor excuse for a source for Ridpath's puckwinning abilities Goldsworthy's quotes look spectacular.


Last edited by markrander87: 07-28-2010 at 01:39 PM.
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07-28-2010, 01:37 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
Checker and hard worker does not explicitly mean physical.
......... and this - Ridpath ("very fast and aggressive and a great stick handler") with no source is suppose to pass for a puck winner for a 2nd line?

Compared to this From the Hockey Hall of Fame website:

Quote:
Right-winger Leroy Goldsworthy was a fine two-way player on six different NHL clubs in the 20s and 30s. He was a tireless worker whose strength was consistency.



Goldsworthy was a solid worker for the Blueshirts


During the 1934 playoffs he was an important checker when the team won the Stanley Cup


He later suited up for the Boston Bruins and New York Americans where he was a fine defensive player


Last edited by markrander87: 07-28-2010 at 01:53 PM.
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07-28-2010, 01:53 PM
  #57
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Just so we are clear, is Tardiff the puck winner for your 1st line or is Dolly Swift?

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07-28-2010, 03:19 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Just so we are clear, is Tardiff the puck winner for your 1st line or is Dolly Swift?
Tardif, in the cases when the puck needs to be taken.

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07-28-2010, 03:46 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Where is it?? Show it to us. We questioned your puck winning ability on your 2nd line and you gave us a one line quote on Ridpath telling us he was fast and a good stick handler??
I told you he was fast and aggressive. Those type of players often win pucks. Realistically though, Haynes could be the one to win pucks if necessary because he was noted for his "hook check" which could be useful for stripping pucks (he was also noted as a very intelligent player).

As for puck moving defence skills:
Halderson:
Winnipeg Falcons:
Quote:
Slim Halderson was a great puck carrier. He could weave his way down the right wing with uncanny control over the puck. Slim, who was six foot two inches tall, travelled down the ice at a much faster clip than the actions of his long limbs indicated. A few long strides and he'd be down to the other end of the rink before the opposition expected.
Wilson:
Legends:
Quote:
He was noted as an all-time great amateur player whose long rushes down ice contributed to his winning the senior scoring title as a defenceman.
Quote:
The decade...thats 4 years. Here is his profile from SIHR can you show us the other statistics you are using.
Looking at those stats, it's clear he led the league in scoring in 1887 and 1894, was 2nd in 1893 and 1896 and was 3rd in 1895.

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Stalberg and I were just laughing at how terrible them metric is. Im sorry your formula equates Marc Tardif as finishing first in the NHL in points!!! Come on if that isnt a warning sign on how inaccurate this formula is then I dont know what is. He played in the NHL for 8 seasons, 2 of which were during his prime and he has zero top 10 finishes in any category
That was Desjardin's metric. I produced a more realistic one. I admitted up front the original metric doesn't work because of the small sample size and it's unrealistic results. You should have read the entire post. The conclusion was basically in Tardif's best years, he would have put up Janney or Haynes-like offensive finishes in points, but was a much better goal scorer and was fairly tough.

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Keeping in mind Tardif only played 6 seasons in the WHA so his NHL years should have way better finishes than that for "The best offensive player in the series".
Goldsworthy's finishes outside of 1970-1975 aren't in the top ten. If Tardif had the sort of longevity you want to see, he'd wouldn't be in the MLD.

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Nedomansky?? HE's on your list haha, Bobby Hull, Gordie Howe were both well into their 40's, MArk Howe was a defenseman and he played in the WHA when he was 18-23 hardly his prime. Kent Nilsson only played two years in the WHA as a 21-22 year old and then went on to have a great NHL Career with two top 10's in points (Which is why he deserves to be a first liner)
Howe was a forward in the WHA. Nedomansky was an ATD player, no need to condescendingly laugh at him. I wasn't claiming that those guys where at their primes, but they were better players than your examples.

If you think so little of the WHA, why did you pick Anders Hedberg in the ATD and hyped him using the line:
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Anders Hedberg played on one of the greatest lines of his era with Bobby Hull too.
?

Hedberg did not do much more than Tardif did in the NHL, so the pick must have been influenced somewhat by his WHA play.

I should also point out when Tardif led the league in scoring, both times he had a 25 point lead over everyone else. He wasn't just leading the league, but blowing away the competition.

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
You keep telling us you have the advantage because you have home-ice, but you have yet to indicate anymore match ups??
Pahlsson line/Keith/McNamara against line 1 most of the time (Keith/McNamara all the time). Line 3 and Line 2 can matchup against St. Mary's 2nd line.

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Do you have any information regarding your centreman and their ability to win draws?? We plan on having the Rogers line with Sheppard and the Ricci line out for all defensive faceoffs in our own end which will be a huge advantage.
Pahlsson is pretty good at faceoffs.
It's hard to tell with Haynes. He was noted as a defensive specialist:
Montreal Canadiens Legends:
Quote:
Haynes combines the defensive skill of Pete lepine and the playmaking prowess of Joe Primeau, and is rated as one of the headiest players in the league."
Defensive centres are usually good at faceoffs, but that is just speculation.

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Regarding Leroy Goldsworthy, after your poor excuse for a source for Ridpath's puckwinning abilities Goldsworthy's quotes look spectacular.
So because one quote is inconclusive an equally inconclusive quote is good? You can't have it both ways.

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Duncan Keith is being severly overrated yes he's had two great seasons, but he's only been in the league for 5 years so lets keep in mind Career Value
It's better career value than any Husky d-man. One absolutely elite year where he pretty much accomplished everything you could reasonably want from a defenceman coupled with two very good years should outweigh a bunch of above-average years.


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07-28-2010, 03:56 PM
  #60
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So one?? I'll take that in a heartbeat.
One that I definitely know of. Of course it's not my job or inclination to go looking for better 4th-line playmakers than Blair. There might be 12 more, there might be no more.

Quote:
Ask and you shall receive

LOH
I'm sorry, but I think this is proof of defensive ability and hard work, not physicality. Some reading between the lines is allowed for older players, but to assume physicality from this, is too much.

[QUOTE=Hedberg;27137714]There's as much on Halderson and McNamara as a lot of ATD pre-1930s player aside from the superstars. There's more on them than Leroy Goldsworthy.[/quote[

Agree... tons more.

Quote:
No, Dolly Swift finished top 3 in scoring 5 times and has a retro hart. He had the second most goals of the decade (and the most from 1887 - 1890). He was a key player in 6 Stanley Cup Wins.
6?

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07-28-2010, 03:59 PM
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Im not willing to accept the 45th either. It's giving Tardiff too much credit for something that never happened.
You're not willing to accept that the WHA's leading scorer would be in the top-45 in the NHL?

Quote:
Tardif, in the cases when the puck needs to be taken.
Heh... nice answer.

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07-28-2010, 04:05 PM
  #62
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6?
Yeah, sorry that's a mistake in my bio. I mistakenly counted him as being on the Montreal Victorias his whole career. Edited that part out. Double checked the other info as accurate though. I'm very embarrassed.


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07-28-2010, 07:56 PM
  #63
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To summarize, as voting day draws near:

- If you believe that dominance in the WHA and AHAC would translate to a reasonable level in the NHL, then Florida's offence is better than St. Mary's. If the NHL is far superior in your eyes, like it is to markrander and Stalberg (except for Whitcroft), than St. Mary's offence could be seen as better (although Florida still has more top 10s in points). I've tried to compare WHA and AHAC numbers (please read the entire post on Tardif and not the just beginning. I'm not actually claiming he would have lead the NHL in scoring). I don't really think further discussion on offence about Tardif, Swift, and McDougall will be fruitful due to the fundamental disagreement in value of leagues and eras between our two sides.


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07-29-2010, 07:52 AM
  #64
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Why St. Mary’s Will win this Series
  • The match-up of Mike Ricci vs. Craig Janney is a match made in heaven for the Huskies. It proved to be a huge advantage in last years MLD Final and this year will be no different. Ricci will be in Janney’s face all series and we all know how Esa Tikkanen wilted Janney, Ricci will do the exact same thing.


  • The Hammerheads lack of secondary scoring should not be ignored. The Hammerheads 2nd and 3rd lines have a combined 23 career playoff points in 75 career games. Who will pick up the lack of scoring from their first line?


  • Florida’s top two lines are by far the softest in the MLD. Tardif is the only player who has had any proof shown that he can be his puckwinner on either line. With Tardif being looked upon as the primary puckwinner that will surely take away from his offensive numbers thus putting more pressure on his 2nd and 3rd lines.Lets keep in mind Dolly Swift played when there were no boards used and he will have zero value as a puck winner. Craig Janney as already stated is one of the softest players ever. Therefore Marc Tardif has to be the puck winner for this line, a very poorly constructed top line.


  • The edge the Huskies have in the face-off circle will be massive. By having the Ricci and Rogers line we will control more of the play and win important defensive zone face-offs.


  • The Hammerheads may have the better 1st pairing on defense, but as a whole the huskies have the best depth without question. Kjell Samuelsson will be exploited for his slowness and lack of agility and Dvorak and Wilson are both unproven. It is safe to say that St. Mary’s number 6 dman Galley would be number 3 on the Hammerheads depth chart.

  • Does Florida have specialty teams posted anywhere’s? The Huskies have a clear advantage in proven PP Specialists in Rautakallio and Galley quarterbacking the play.

  • The most clear cut edge for either team in the series is goaltending. Kolzig is the better goalie in the series as already stated by Hedberg.

  • Why has Frank Patrick not been brought up yet? Once again another vital member of the Hammerheads who is unproven in the NHL. He has coached 2 seasons total with a career 2-4 playoff record. Compared to coach Q who is a career playoff record of 67-59 with a cup win, coaching in more playoff games then Patrick has coached combined. Another clearcut advantage for the Huskies.


Last edited by markrander87: 07-29-2010 at 09:23 AM.
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07-29-2010, 09:12 AM
  #65
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I don't have much time but just to reinforce what Mark has said with regards to faceoffs. Sheppard and Ricci, two proven and documented quality faceoff men, will be used for all defensive zone draws. By doing this the Huskies expect to gain possession in these situations more often than not (I'm open to quotes from Hedberg on his scoring line centers faceoff abilities, as even if Pahlsson is near the same class as Sheppard and Ricci, that line doesn't pose an offensive threat). By gaining possession out chances of changing on the fly to get away from matchups we don't want is greatly increased.

With regards to Keith, given the lack of longevity, there is no way you have the Keith of 09/10 patrolling the blueline in this format. Just wanted to make sure that was clear to everyone. What is the impact of lack of longevity in the all time sense? Is it inconsistency at that high level or a player of the combined caliber of all of his career?

It's all well and good that Florida doesn't plan to be digging out many pucks but I don't think their top line will have an easy time skating or passing te puck in over the blueline against our checking line. They will have to dump it in or dig out loose pucks in the corners much more often than Hedberg is willing to admit, and with Tardiff as the only proven puck winner he will be in tough against guys like Ricci, but more importantly won't be around the net in those instances.

Why the Huskies should win:
-Better goaltending
-One of the top checking lines in the draft matched up against the Hammerhead's top scoring line which happens to be anchored by one of the softest players in history down the middle lining up against Ricci. I think the shut down capability edge we have over Florida's checking line is larger than the gap between our primary scoring line.
-Scoring and defensive depth and balance. Our pairings are all put together with a proven mix of skatig, size, physicality, and puck moving ability, while our forwards have a defensive and hard working two way presence on every line. All four lines and defense pairings will get regular minutes at even stregnth and should stay fresh.(page 1)
-Coaching edge. I think the numbers should speak for themselves here.

Why Florida could win:
-Advantage in top lines offensive ability.
-Better top two defensemen.
-Good puck moving ability.

I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff, my apologies, I need to start paying attention in the course I'm in right now.

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07-29-2010, 09:25 AM
  #66
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Just one more thing.

The metric for measuring WHA success was interestig but I just can't buy anything that results in Tardiff having a first in NHL scoring. I can't think of any players who dominated the NHL at the same level they could dominate the WHA off the top of my head. I think the Cloutier example is a good example as I'm not aware of any similar evidence to the contrary. The furthest I will ever concede would be 10-15 finishes in the NHL. The best indicator has to be the names that are being beat.

I'm fairly certain others will still value the WHA more than we do but Mark also did a good job responding to his examples.


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07-29-2010, 09:53 AM
  #67
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Howard is the lesser of the McNamara brothers, but was still a force in his own right. He was 6'0" and 240 pounds and in today's terms, well, I don't even want to think about how big that makes him. He was never a star player, but was always one of the biggest, strongest, and meanest players of his time, and enjoyed team success, so in that regard he is the Jeff Beukeboom of his time. Even that may be unfair to McNamara, as he did show flashes of brilliance. In 1916, he was the NHA's highest scoring defenseman. In 1917, he was 6th, but was on pace for 2nd had he played every game.
-Seventieslord


So this is the huge offensive and defensive star who will lead Florida to victory?

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07-29-2010, 10:33 AM
  #68
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Just one more thing.

The metric for measuring WHA success was interestig but I just can't buy anything that results in Tardiff having a first in NHL scoring. I can't think of any players who dominated the NHL at the same level they could dominate the WHA off the top of my head. I think the Cloutier example is a good example as I'm not aware of any similar evidence to the contrary. The furthest I will ever concede would be 10-15 finishes in the NHL. The best indicator has to be the names that are being beat.

I'm fairly certain others will still value the WHA more than we do but Mark also did a good job responding to his examples.
I don't think even Hedberg thinks Tardiff's finish is equal to a 1st in the NHL. The metric he used to smooth down the edges (so Tardiff didn't go from 1st to 45th in no time) gave Tardiff a peak of 4th in points, which may or may not still be too high.

What impresses me about Tardiff is he was better than most NHLers against the Soviets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
-Seventieslord


So this is the huge offensive and defensive star who will lead Florida to victory?
I don't like the Beukeboom comparison to Howard McNamara. They are both huge, physical defensemen. But that's where the similarities end. Beukeboom was a solid stay-at-home guy who provided almost no offense and was a really slow skater. Howard McNamara actually provides a lot of offense. What do we know of his skating? My question about McNamara is: what do we actually know about his defensive ability? His lower scoring and equally huge brother is in the Hall of Fame. Unless you believe the story that they inducted George by mistake instead of Howard, that indicates to me that George was almost certainly better defensively, possibly by a lot.

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07-29-2010, 11:12 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't think even Hedberg thinks Tardiff's finish is equal to a 1st in the NHL. The metric he used to smooth down the edges (so Tardiff didn't go from 1st to 45th in no time) gave Tardiff a peak of 4th in points, which may or may not still be too high.

What impresses me about Tardiff is he was better than most NHLers against the Soviets.


.
Tardif has to be the puckwinning presence for this line. Even if we give him 10 imaginary top 10's for NHL scoring the fact is that he has no other player on his line to win the puck for him. Clearly this will take away from his offense. This is a very poorly constructed first line and probably 2 of the worst possible linemates for Tardif.


EDIT: So TDMM do you agree with the rest of our points?

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07-29-2010, 11:33 AM
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I don't like the Beukeboom comparison to Howard McNamara. They are both huge, physical defensemen. But that's where the similarities end. Beukeboom was a solid stay-at-home guy who provided almost no offense and was a really slow skater. Howard McNamara actually provides a lot of offense. What do we know of his skating? My question about McNamara is: what do we actually know about his defensive ability? His lower scoring and equally huge brother is in the Hall of Fame. Unless you believe the story that they inducted George by mistake instead of Howard, that indicates to me that George was almost certainly better defensively, possibly by a lot.

And you and me are on the same page. This Florida team has too many question marks that have yet to been addressed.

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07-29-2010, 11:56 AM
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To me is there really that much difference in career value concerining Duncan Keith and Zach Parise?

Im admittingly giving the edge to Keith, But is the difference that high to warrant him a 1st pairing top knotch dman who seems invincible compared to Parise who is on our 4th line?

To me the career value doesnt seem to have that much of a gap.

They've each 5 NHL Seasons
Keith 1st team all-star Norris - Parise 2nd team all-star 5th in league scoring
They each were considered to be one of the better players on their 2010 Olympic team
They have each played in one all star game
Parise had a much more impressive first two seasons, third season is close and then Keith has the advantage the last two seasons.

Im not trying to say PArise is equal to Keith, but is the value that different?

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07-29-2010, 11:58 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
They've each 5 NHL Seasons
Keith 1st team all-star Norris - Parise 2nd team all-star 5th in league scoring
They each were considered to be one of the better players on their 2010 Olympic team
They have each played in one all star game
Parise had a much more impressive first two seasons, third season is close and then Keith has the advantage the last two seasons.
The biggest difference is Parise has never been considered the best at his position, has never won a Stanley Cup, and the defence pool is much weaker than the forward pool.

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07-29-2010, 12:04 PM
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The biggest difference is Parise has never been considered the best at his position, has never won a Stanley Cup, and the defence pool is much weaker than the forward pool.

He's been considered second best.

No cup, but 28 points in 37 career playoff games, including that clutch tying goal for team USA with 20 seconds left in the Gold medal game.

Yes your right the defence pool is a lot weaker then the forward pool, but that works both ways.


Have you no rebuttal to the valid points made by stalberg and I regarding the series?
Do you have any defensive information on Mcnamara as requested by TDMM?

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07-29-2010, 12:15 PM
  #74
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Why Florida will win the series

- Significantly better offensive players. The best St. Mary's points finishes:
Greg Sheppard: 23rd, 30th, 32nd
Mike Rogers: 5th, 8th, 13th
Bill Goldsworthy: 18th, 21st, 22nd
Danny Grant: 14th, 20th, 41st
Scott Gomez: 20th, 23rd, 26th

Florida's
Craig Janney: 6th, 9th, 14th
Paul Haynes: 4th, 9th, 29th

Add in Swift and McDougall's retro Harts and offensive numbers with the best offensive player in the series in Marc Tardif, who would have scored a roughly equivalent 4th and 8th finishes in points and two 5ths in goals (same as Goldsworthy in that department)

- St. Mary's hypes their checking line, but don't overlook Florida's. Samuel Pahlsson was the key checker on a Stanley Cup team, just like Ricci. Kallur also had success checking, winning 4 cups. Jonathan may be unorthodox, but his hard work and toughness brings a valuable component and despite his small size will inflict physical pressure.

- Defence. Florida is much more mobile and has better puck moving skills. Halderson is over-looked and proved himself in the PCHA.
St. Mary's focuses on Samuelsson being slow, but are okay having Norstrom on their defence. Samuelsson was good enough to win a Stanley Cup in the top 4 and played in an All-Star game. The idea Dvorak is unproven as even though he didn't make the NHL until he was 31, he won the Flyer's best defence trophy on a team that went to the finals the next year.

- Gameplans: St. Mary's is all about having Tardif have to win the puck, upset Janney, etc. They're in a defensive mindset from the beginning. Florida has a more mobile defence and forwards that skate well and can penetrate the zone by carrying the puck, not dumping and chasing. Florida will dictate the play, especially on it's home ice

I'm gone for the day and since it's voting day, I probably won't respond to any more arguments tonight. Good luck to St. Mary's and may the best team win.

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07-29-2010, 12:42 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
Why Florida will win the series

- Significantly better offensive players. The best St. Mary's points finishes:
Greg Sheppard: 23rd, 30th, 32nd
Mike Rogers: 5th, 8th, 13th
Bill Goldsworthy: 18th, 21st, 22nd
Danny Grant: 14th, 20th, 41st
Scott Gomez: 20th, 23rd, 26th

Florida's
Craig Janney: 6th, 9th, 14th
Paul Haynes: 4th, 9th, 29th
........How is Floridas more impressive?? This clearly shows St. Mary's have more proven offensive weapons that can score. Why did you omit our 4th line?? That was pretty convenient Add in a 3rd and 5th, 14th from Blair and Parise



-
Quote:
St. Mary's hypes their checking line, but don't overlook Florida's. Samuel Pahlsson was the key checker on a Stanley Cup team, just like Ricci. Kallur also had success checking, winning 4 cups. Jonathan may be unorthodox, but his hard work and toughness brings a valuable component and despite his small size will inflict physical pressure.
Who has the better Selke record?? Its Ricci by a country mile...and a nose Pahlsson isnt even in the same universe as Ricci as indicated by the Selke Voting

-
Quote:
Defence. Florida is much more mobile and has better puck moving skills. Halderson is over-looked and proved himself in the PCHA.
St. Mary's focuses on Samuelsson being slow, but are okay having Norstrom on their defence. Samuelsson was good enough to win a Stanley Cup in the top 4 and played in an All-Star game. The idea Dvorak is unproven as even though he didn't make the NHL until he was 31, he won the Flyer's best defence trophy on a team that went to the finals the next year.
How?? We have Pekka, Galley,Maloney and Jonsson?? No clear edge there whatsoever. Norstrom was said to be the most underated player in the game as quoted by Jeremy Roenick. Plus Norstrom is paired with a more proven mobile partner.

Quote:
- Gameplans: St. Mary's is all about having Tardif have to win the puck, upset Janney, etc. They're in a defensive mindset from the beginning. Florida has a more mobile defence and forwards that skate well and can penetrate the zone by carrying the puck, not dumping and chasing. Florida will dictate the play, especially on it's home ice
Of course it is when our 3rd line shut down line will play against your only scoring line. You dont plan on having a defensive mindset when Pahlssons line matches up against our top line??

We are not "all about Tardif winning the puck, you are, you forced that upon him.


Still no viable quotes on all of his older era players, we are basing their play on pure speculation.


Last edited by markrander87: 07-29-2010 at 12:47 PM.
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