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Old
07-24-2010, 04:10 AM
  #1
Gudbranson44
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HF prospect grades for Cats 2010 Draft Class

In full boredom I clicked my way around the HFboards and found one thing we could do just for fun to pass time.
Some guys have started to put hf prospect grades on the top 20 picks of this years draft, so I thought it could be fun to see how we over/under value our new prospects by grading them.

Remember this is just for fun, no need to bash people for their thoughs!

Here's the "rules":
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/playerprojections/

This is my thoughts as of right now:

Erik Gudbranson D : 8.5B

Nick Bjugstad C : 8C

Quinton Howden L : 7B

John Mcfarland C : 7.5D

Alex Petrovic D : 7.5C

Connor Brickley F : 6.5C

Joe Basaraba F : 6.5C

Sam Brittain G : 6C

Ben Gallacher D : 6.5C

Joonas Donskoi F : 7C

Zach Hyman F : 7C

Corey Durocher L : 6.5C

R.J. Boyd D : 6D


Give it a try!

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07-24-2010, 05:14 AM
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Erik Gudbranson D : 8.5A

Nick Bjugstad C : 8C

Quinton Howden L : 7.5C

John Mcfarland C : 7.5D

Alex Petrovic D : 8B

Connor Brickley F : 6.5C

Joe Basaraba F : 6.5D

Sam Brittain G : 6C

Ben Gallacher D : 6.5C

Joonas Donskoi F : 6.5C

Zach Hyman F : 7C

Corey Durocher L : 6.5C

R.J. Boyd D : 6D

Yes, I'm high on Petrovic

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Old
07-24-2010, 06:11 AM
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Erik Gudbranson D : 8.5C/ Hatcher

Nick Bjugstad C : 7.0B / Thornton mold.. but not sure if the same skill set is their

Quinton Howden L : 6.5A / 3rd line guy with potential for 20 goals

John Mcfarland C : 8.0D/ most skilled player we drafted.. confidence and team problems sudbury contributed to his lack of production... has corry perry type potential

Alex Petrovic D : 7.0C whatever

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07-24-2010, 11:11 AM
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Erik Gudbranson D : 8B

Nick Bjugstad C : 8C

Quinton Howden L : 7.5B

John Mcfarland C : 8C

Alex Petrovic D : 7.5C

Connor Brickley F : 6.5C

Joe Basaraba F : 6.5C

Sam Brittain G : 6C

Ben Gallacher D : 6.5C

Joonas Donskoi F : 7C

Zach Hyman F : 7C

Corey Durocher L : 6.5C

R.J. Boyd D : 6D

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07-24-2010, 12:42 PM
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For the prospects selected in the first 2 rounds:

Gudbranson: 8.5C

Bjugstad: 8.0D

Howden: 7.5C

McFarland: 8.0D

Petrovic: 7.5C

Brickley: 6.5C

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Old
07-24-2010, 12:58 PM
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I thought it would be more interesting to work off of the prospect rank list that's being developed...


Jacob Markstrom G : 9 C

Erik Gudbranson D : 8.5 B

Michael Grabner R : 7 B

Nick Bjugstad C : 8 C

Colby Robak D : 7 B

Michael Repik R : 7 B

Quinton Howden L : 7 B

John Mcfarland C : 8 C

Jason Garrison D : 6.5 A

Alex Petrovic D : 7 C

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Old
07-24-2010, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
I thought it would be more interesting to work off of the prospect rank list that's being developed...


Jacob Markstrom G : 9 C

Erik Gudbranson D : 8.5 B

Michael Grabner R : 7 B

Nick Bjugstad C : 8 C

Colby Robak D : 7 B

Michael Repik R : 7 B

Quinton Howden L : 7 B

John Mcfarland C : 8 C

Jason Garrison D : 6.5 A

Alex Petrovic D : 7 C
i dont think he gets higher than the 8.5 C he has now unless he goes to an 8.5 B

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07-24-2010, 03:49 PM
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do we have any idea on when the new organizational rankings will be out?

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07-24-2010, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoisournextbure View Post
In full boredom I clicked my way around the HFboards and found one thing we could do just for fun to pass time.
Some guys have started to put hf prospect grades on the top 20 picks of this years draft, so I thought it could be fun to see how we over/under value our new prospects by grading them.

Remember this is just for fun, no need to bash people for their thoughs!

Here's the "rules":
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/playerprojections/

This is my thoughts as of right now:

Erik Gudbranson D : 8.5B

Nick Bjugstad C : 8C

Quinton Howden L : 7B

John Mcfarland C : 7.5D

Alex Petrovic D : 7.5C

Connor Brickley F : 6.5C

Joe Basaraba F : 6.5C

Sam Brittain G : 6C

Ben Gallacher D : 6.5C

Joonas Donskoi F : 7C

Zach Hyman F : 7C

Corey Durocher L : 6.5C

R.J. Boyd D : 6D


Give it a try!
I think that's reasonable but I would make Howden a 7.5C and Brittain at least a 6.5C. If anyone deserves a 6C it's Gallacher, he could be considered a bit of a reach where he was drafted. Brittain was a highly ranked goalie though.

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07-24-2010, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by FinlandPanther View Post
i dont think he gets higher than the 8.5 C he has now unless he goes to an 8.5 B
Read the criteria.

9C = a goaltender who has the potential to be a perennial all star, but may disappoint and end up being a journeyman starter

Markstrom's potential is a 9 (perennial all star). Based on his play in Europe, it's a reasonable top end/optimistic projection. A 9 doesn't mean he WILL be one, unless you call him a 9A. The 'C' qualifies that '9' rating by saying that he could end up dropping up to two number grades - just being a 7 (i.e. a journeyman starter.)

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07-24-2010, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
Read the criteria.

9C = a goaltender who has the potential to be a perennial all star, but may disappoint and end up being a journeyman starter

Markstrom's potential is a 9 (perennial all star). Based on his play in Europe, it's a reasonable top end/optimistic projection. A 9 doesn't mean he WILL be one, unless you call him a 9A. The 'C' qualifies that '9' rating by saying that he could end up dropping up to two number grades - just being a 7 (i.e. a journeyman starter.)
i hope he does become that and he definetely has that potential but hasek and brodeur are 9's.....

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Old
07-24-2010, 11:08 PM
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It says:

10 - Generational talent -- a player for the ages, one who can do things with a puck that no other player would even contemplate doing. Very, very few players will be deserving of this rating, probably one per decade. Think Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Bobby Orr, maybe Sidney Crosby, but we'll see.

WTF are these people smoking? Crysbaby in no way belongs in the same sentence as Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr. This pissed me off enough that I need to come back to this later. Friggin Crosby apologists.

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07-25-2010, 03:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KWGoon View Post
It says:

10 - Generational talent -- a player for the ages, one who can do things with a puck that no other player would even contemplate doing. Very, very few players will be deserving of this rating, probably one per decade. Think Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Bobby Orr, maybe Sidney Crosby, but we'll see.

WTF are these people smoking? Crysbaby in no way belongs in the same sentence as Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr. This pissed me off enough that I need to come back to this later. Friggin Crosby apologists.
before crosby, who was the last rookie to score 100+ points in his first season after being drafted the same year?
Id say that qualifies for consideration.

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07-25-2010, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by whoisournextbure View Post
before crosby, who was the last rookie to score 100+ points in his first season after being drafted the same year?
Id say that qualifies for consideration.
COMPLETELY minor point. Check out the stats, think about impact, compare with current peers, and maybe you'll understand. Crosby's not that special yet. He's arguably NOT the best player in the league currently. The "generational talents" were clearly the best players during their time, over a long period.

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07-25-2010, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KWGoon View Post
COMPLETELY minor point. Check out the stats, think about impact, compare with current peers, and maybe you'll understand. Crosby's not that special yet. He's arguably NOT the best player in the league currently. The "generational talents" were clearly the best players during their time, over a long period.
You know why Crosby can't put up the same point as Gretzky? Not saying Crosby is as great, but the change of equipment and the new butterfly goaliestyle has made it alot tougher to put up those massive points. And by the way, where would Pittsburgh be without Crosby? Kansas City Penguins?

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07-25-2010, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KWGoon View Post
COMPLETELY minor point. Check out the stats, think about impact, compare with current peers, and maybe you'll understand. Crosby's not that special yet. He's arguably NOT the best player in the league currently. The "generational talents" were clearly the best players during their time, over a long period.
when translated into today style of nhl hockey yes I do believe he should be CONSIDERED.
back when gretz and lem owned the league goalscoring was easier and thats a fact. crosby has put up pretty nice numbers so far in his career in these conditions, and if he had played 20-30 years ago you can bet they would have been close to gretzkys and lemieux's.
He has also accomplished quite alot in terms of winning titles and trophies.

now dont get me wrong I dislike this guy with all my heart, but Im not gonna lie and say he shouldnt be considered a generational talent. He has many years left to prove to us, but he has already done alot.

just saying, no need to get upset...

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Old
07-25-2010, 11:55 AM
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Crosby can't be considered on Gretzky, Lemieux's, Orr's level yet. But if he plays several more years and keep doing what he is doing presently, then he should be in that group. Ovechkin also.

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07-25-2010, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
Crosby can't be considered on Gretzky, Lemieux's, Orr's level yet. But if he plays several more years and keep doing what he is doing presently, then he should be in that group. Ovechkin also.
Crosby will never be in that group. Its arguable if Crosby is even the best in the league (Due to his sick finish last year, right now he is all the rage, yet Ovechkin produced at a better rate). Ovechkin is going to find it difficult to become the greatest Euro forward of all time (Passing Jagr is going to be very difficult) and Jagr is considered to only just be a top ten player of all time by some, and a top 15 by most.

Yes if you translate Goals per game ratio throughout different eras, the greater talent of the average NHL player (though thats set off a little by greater number of teams therefore some dilution is inevitable) and the much much much better goaltenders we have today, Ovy Crosby and Malkin all compare very favourable in an historical context with most.

But, none of the big 3 will ever ever be on the same level as the three mentioned. Its just idiotic to believe they will be.

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07-25-2010, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Crosby will never be in that group. Its arguable if Crosby is even the best in the league (Due to his sick finish last year, right now he is all the rage, yet Ovechkin produced at a better rate). Ovechkin is going to find it difficult to become the greatest Euro forward of all time (Passing Jagr is going to be very difficult) and Jagr is considered to only just be a top ten player of all time by some, and a top 15 by most.

Yes if you translate Goals per game ratio throughout different eras, the greater talent of the average NHL player (though thats set off a little by greater number of teams therefore some dilution is inevitable) and the much much much better goaltenders we have today, Ovy Crosby and Malkin all compare very favourable in an historical context with most.

But, none of the big 3 will ever ever be on the same level as the three mentioned. Its just idiotic to believe they will be.
Alright, sure. And they walked on water and cured the blind too, huh?

Are you insane, if Ovy keeps up the goalscoring pace he has had so far in his career for most of his career, he will be more productive than Jagr, and that's with better goaltending today. And Crosby has been a better PPG player in his career than Ovy.

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07-26-2010, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
Alright, sure. And they walked on water and cured the blind too, huh?

Are you insane, if Ovy keeps up the goalscoring pace he has had so far in his career for most of his career, he will be more productive than Jagr, and that's with better goaltending today. And Crosby has been a better PPG player in his career than Ovy.
Crosby leads Ovechkin in PPG by something like 0.01. There are basically equal. Niether Crosby or Ovechkin has truely established themself as the definitive #1 guy yet. The last two Art Ross winners were Sedin and Malkin. Yet, in the space of 21 years there were only 3 winners - Gretzky, Lemieux and Jagr. They were dominant. Ovechkin and Crosby/Malkin have yet to dominant the NHL in the same way. Statistical dominance has yet to happen.

Ovechkin has produced a stunning start to his career (Its also noteworthy that Ovechkin never had his true rookie year). If he keeps up this pace, he will undoubtedly become the best LW of all time, and will overtake Jagr. But - there is absolute no guarantee that this will happen. To compare him to the big 3 - Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr - seems pointless right now, because his numbers even according for different era ratios do not compare. Niether does Crosby. Its just a fact - the first 5 years of Crosby and Ovechkin are not on the same level as Mario or Wayne. Argue it however you wish - i've yet to see any convincing argument to suggest Ovechkin and Crosby will ever be recognized in that top tier. Both project to be better than Sakic, Yzerman, Messier etc, but its unrealistic to assume they will reach THAT level based on the trends we have at our disposal.

Oh, and i personally get extremely tired of the way some olde rplayers are rated. I think the older generation is often rated too favourably against the modern day crop. This modern day crop is excellent. But when it comes to discussions about the the top 3 players of all time - Ovechkin, Crosby and Malkin do not belong.

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07-26-2010, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Crosby leads Ovechkin in PPG by something like 0.01. There are basically equal. Niether Crosby or Ovechkin has truely established themself as the definitive #1 guy yet. The last two Art Ross winners were Sedin and Malkin. Yet, in the space of 21 years there were only 3 winners - Gretzky, Lemieux and Jagr. They were dominant. Ovechkin and Crosby/Malkin have yet to dominant the NHL in the same way. Statistical dominance has yet to happen.
this line of logic is the most pervasive to me. to determine if crosby fits in with gretzky and lemieux then you should consider how they compared to the others in their generations and then do the same for crosby in this era. if crosby has the same dominance over his generation as gretzky did then he belongs in the same class. but doing an apples to oranges comparison even trying to factor in all the changes in the generations leaves too much room for error.

btw imo crosby doesnt match up well to gretzky.

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07-26-2010, 11:56 AM
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Gudbranson: 8 C
Bjudstad: 8 D
Howden: 7 B
McFarland: 7.5 D
Petrovic: 7 C

The rest, no clue really.

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07-26-2010, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Crosby leads Ovechkin in PPG by something like 0.01.
It's a little bit more than that. Crosby is the most prolific scorer in the NHL since the lockout. That also coincides with his first 5 years in the league, and he started at 18. That is an incredibly dominant entry into the NHL. The likes of which haven't been seen since...Lemieux, Gretzky, and Orr. And it's not like there isn't an abundance of talent in the league. Right now the league is the most talented it's ever been. I think even the most stubborn old-timer longing for the glory days would admit that. Every year now there is just a deluge of great young talent coming in, it never used to be like that.


Quote:
Niether Crosby or Ovechkin has truely established themself as the definitive #1 guy yet. The last two Art Ross winners were Sedin and Malkin. Yet, in the space of 21 years there were only 3 winners - Gretzky, Lemieux and Jagr. They were dominant. Ovechkin and Crosby/Malkin have yet to dominant the NHL in the same way. Statistical dominance has yet to happen.
Just because we have two amazing superstars in the game right now who are about neck and neck, doesn't take away from their greatness. Why WOULDN'T you want two instead of one? So what if neither has broken ahead of the other yet? Imagine if Gretzky and Orr played over the same time period, then that debate could be settled much more easily. Yes, in 21 years only 3 guys won the Art Ross, but I don't think that necessarily proves anything other than they didn't have a lot of competition. Like I said, the league is more talented than it's ever been before. Maybe in some years, Crosby or Ovy, or Malkin for that matter, might not win the Art Ross. They might not win it every year. Then again, maybe they will win it for 20 straight years, we don't know yet. My whole premise, if your noticed, was that we can't consider these guys as among the very best of all time yet, only if they continue their pace.

I do think Malkin has more pure talent than either Crosby or Ovechkin, he just isn't as consistent as those two and doesn't have some elements that they do. If he does put it together though, he could join those two guys.

Nobody is going to score 160 pts. or something in the NHL anymore. Nobody could- not Gretzky in his prime, or anybody else. The goalies are too good, have bigger and better equipment, coaching and systems are too good nowadays. If Crosby and Ovy continue on their current pace for several more years, that would be incredibly impressive. You have to think about what these guys are actually doing. Jagr really doesn't hold a candle to Ovy or Corsby in the recordbooks if those 2 guys continue on their current pace. Gretzky scoring 210 pts. back in the highflying 80's isn't as impressive as if Crosby and Ovy scored 140 pts one day.

Quote:
Ovechkin has produced a stunning start to his career (Its also noteworthy that Ovechkin never had his true rookie year). If he keeps up this pace, he will undoubtedly become the best LW of all time, and will overtake Jagr. But - there is absolute no guarantee that this will happen. To compare him to the big 3 - Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr - seems pointless right now, because his numbers even according for different era ratios do not compare. Niether does Crosby.
Yes, I never guaranteed it will happen. I said this. It depends on whether they keep it up or not. Right now, they are not in the class of Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux. The numbers against different eras do compare favorably though. Let's be real here. In the 80's Gretzky and Lemieux were playing against garbage goalies with tiny little pads and sometimes coaching was so bad then. And the comparison between systems play now vs. then is night and day. Teams really didn't care at all about emphasizing defensive play as compared with today. It was basically run n' gun every game. Gretzky's 92 goals isn't some mythical achievement, really it's a product of the times. If he had played even 15 years earlier, he wouldn't have been able to do that either. That's why I think what Orr did as a d-man is more impressive than Gretzky's career. But now I'm going off on a tangent. Ovy scoring 65 goals in today's game in comparison to Gretzky's 92 back then compares very favorably I think. I still give Gretzky the edge, but it's not by a big margin.



Quote:
Its just a fact - the first 5 years of Crosby and Ovechkin are not on the same level as Mario or Wayne. Argue it however you wish - i've yet to see any convincing argument to suggest Ovechkin and Crosby will ever be recognized in that top tier. Both project to be better than Sakic, Yzerman, Messier etc, but its unrealistic to assume they will reach THAT level based on the trends we have at our disposal.
You can argue it back and forth until the cows come home. If you don't want to be convinced that Crosby and Ovy are on par with Mario and Wayne's first 5 years, then you won't be. It's extremely difficult to compare different eras. There's enough data out there that anyone can be right, as long as you present arguments within reason. I mean, look at the most goals in 50 games leaders. You'll see an interesting name up there. Joe Nieuwendyk? I mean, he was a very good player, for sure, but one of the best scorers of all time? No. But yet he sits up there near that record. It's obvious though that Sidney and Ovy are better players than he was, but yet they will probably never get as many goals in 50 games as he did, because of the era they are playing in.

Anyway, as I've said, my whole premise has been that they are not on Mario, Wayne, or Bobby's level. Yet. But they potentially could be, whereas you can't say that about a whole heck of a lot of players.

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07-27-2010, 02:09 PM
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http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article..._draft_review/

Nice little read for people that didn't know much about our drafted players.

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07-27-2010, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
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http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article..._draft_review/

Nice little read for people that didn't know much about our drafted players.
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=802751

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