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07-25-2010, 02:37 PM
  #101
Florentino Ariza
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
People who live in glass houses, don't throw stones.

Crosby was slowed down greatly in both of his showings in the SCF. I wouldn't be so quick to call out another team's star player for doing the same.
That's exactly what I was about to say.

Richards is a great two-way hockey player and he does everything Philadelphia asks him to do. His offensive skills aren't Sidney Crosby-esque, but he scores big goals all the time and is gifted offensively. I don't want to sound like Pierre McGuire, but he is a great leader and I've read quotes taken from his teammates praising him for being the kind of guy they can look up to. When you have someone like that who can command respect and lead by example, you have a great player.

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07-25-2010, 02:37 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by GoPenguins View Post
We're all fine with other people having different opinions and expressing them here. I think what we are curious about is exactly why you feel he and Ovechkin has ruined hockey when they are often perceived as reviving interest in hockey. I think if Crosby and Ovechkin were already in the league and had their rivalry established when ESPN were thinking of renewing their hockey contract, I doubt we'd be seeing Versus covering hockey as ESPN would know these superstars were reviving the sport in a positive way.
Well let me start off by saying that the values that I feel hockey should express are not necessarily universal or that everyone would necessarily agree with them.

I do agree that if Crosby/Ovechkin was established back pre-lockout things might have changed, but that is still a MIGHT. I don't know if that rivalry itself would have been enough to offset the damage the NHL did to itself at the time with the lockout. The dead puck era also would have put a strangle of Crosby/Ovechkin; maybe not in the same way it would've likely completely squandered players like Semin, Malkin, and Backstrom just to name a few obvious candidates on the same teams, but I think the effect of it would've have been significant enough to make Crosby/Ovechkin less of a factor. That's why I have so much respect for some of the forwards that survived and even thrived in the DPE like Forsberg, my favorite player ever.

So it's very possible that Crosby/Ovechkin might have never happened until after the lockout anyway. It's also possible that it would not have made a difference.

At the time the NFL was thriving almost uncontrollably, the NBA was huge and overextended (you're seeing the ramifications of that now), and baseball was as big as it's ever been.

ESPN didn't necessarily have a need for hockey regardless.

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Originally Posted by GoPenguins View Post
Hockey is different today than it was 10 years ago, but the game it has evolved to today is a highly entertaining product largely thanks to these superstars who are probably getting more and more people into playing hockey at a young age.
I think a lot of it is because you're starting to see the talent level take a shift. 2003-2009 was probably the main stage of it with a little more years added either way. These are the kids that grew up watching the hockey of the 90's.

I think that along with the post-lockout NHL game (end of the DPE) set in motion the world of hockey that we love now. No longer is it limited to the tallest or the biggest. Now you get a nice mix of physicality, skill, speed, brains, etc. It makes the sport one of the most dynamic on the planet, and that's why I love it.

I will also add that the lockout prepared the NHL for the economic downturn better than any other league. It may have been a blessing in disguise as you see the NHL begin to thrive in a poor economy compared to other leagues. The NHL is growing while the NBA and MLB, perhaps even the NFL, are on the decline. Again, the NFL, like the banks , might be too big to fail in a sense, but I think the point is there. Some of the recovery numbers that the NHL has posted in this poor economic climate are astronomical, but if you're looking for a discussion on that, the business section would be a better place to go than listening to me ramble on.

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Originally Posted by GoPenguins View Post
We're always going to complain about officials game by game, and how hitting is sometimes no longer possible by the new rules, but I think this sport still has a lot of offer visually entertainment wise, from the enforcer fights, to powerplays, to short handed chances, to penalty shots etc. There may be a bias in some ways to protecting the superstars more with a whistle, but that's to be expected. Noone wants to see teams ice a whole team of goons just to injure an opposition's skillful player as its the skill we all want to see. I can appreciate Ovechkin's skill even though I have no desire to see him display it against my Pens.
Agreed completely, but I think it goes deeper than that. The NHL didn't necessarily set out to kill the goon or destroy the trap. Instead what it set out to do was open the playing field. As a result, you need players that can do multiple things. Goons are now pests who need to be able to play a defensive game or maybe chip in offensively. They also have to lead on the ice still. They need to protect their teammates. So the goon is not dead, it's just disguised. No longer is there a need for the 6'5 monsters who can skate, stick handle, or pass.

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07-25-2010, 02:53 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by froods View Post
I absolutely hate Ovechkin......but I will admit without him and Sid....the NHL would have been in trouble out of the lockout. I don't understand your opinion at all.
Alright, let me explain it this way.

For everything great Crosby/Ovechkin has brought to hockey, and I will be the first to say that the excess publicity in their name in the post-lockout world has been completely instrumental to the NHL's quick turn-around, there's a significant danger in relying too much on this kind of thinking.

I saw someone mention sarcastically that Bird/Magic did the same thing in the NBA, which basically caused the NBA to flourish.

But you also need to eventually explore more than that. Even though the aftereffects of Crosby/Ovechkin will be felt for a decade after they've eventually left the game in the way of new players and new fans worshiping them, it's a double-edged sword.

I'm not trying to be rude when I say this, but you have to admit that Pittsburgh and Washington have a lot of bandwagon fans. For every 10 bandwagon fans that become life-long hockey fans because of Crosby/Ovechkin, there are likely hundreds that don't care and, after Crosby/Ovechkin begins to die, they will turn into something else.

So how do you get more than just 10 bandwagon fans or however many per couple hundred to stay and become actual NHL fans? This is where you establish identity.

You think Joe Shmoe in downtown LA, who started watching the Penguins and became a fan because of Crosby, cares if the Penguins stop winning? He'll turn off the TV fairly quickly, and it's not like the local media cares much about the Penguins. His fix comes from ESPN of course, which is where most young men who are attracted to hockey get their information.

So the legitimate concern I have is this over-saturation of Crosby/Ovechkin. It hasn't reached dangerous levels just yet, but if the sports world is run by ESPN and that's all they ever show, what happens if the product is not worthy of showing anymore?

I don't think it'll happen, but let's say next year the Penguins, Capitals, and Blackhawks miss the playoffs. Where do those bandwagon fans go? New Jersey? Vancouver? Buffalo? Not a chance.

You keep those bandwagon fans by eventually expanding into their markets. LA Pens fan has to be able to pick up a local paper or watch the local news and care what the Kings are doing because if you bank on just ESPN, things start to vanish at the first hint of trouble.

So eventually the NHL has to start broadening things. I don't think they've done a very good job of it so far. That's to be expected though with Versus being the main provider. The limited time on NBC and the Olympics have also helped, but you need to start getting more than Ovechkin/Crosby out there.

Stamkos needs to bring Tampa Bay fans. Doughty needs to bring LA fans. Etc and so on down the line. You get those fans through ESPN, as much as it sucks to admit, but the whole bandwagon world waiting for word on Crosby/Ovechkin is going to eventually come back to haunt us unless the NHL finds someway to cement it and localize fandom.

That's just my opinion anyway. It's not that what Crosby/Ovechkin have done to this point that's bad or ruining the NHL, but it's more the risk that comes with it, if the league does not act appropriately.

Then again, I guess if hockey survived the lockout it will be able to survive another one. That said, I think you can safely assume that Crosby and Ovechkin are our generational talents. It'll take a few years before we know with absolute certainty, but you can be fairly confident at this point. If we lose out on this opportunity, we could languish until we find some replacements. Who knows when that could be...

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07-25-2010, 04:52 PM
  #104
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I did say through no fault of his own. His ruining of hockey (along with Ovechkin) is my opinion, and I have a right to my opinion. In the end, it's really the NHL's doing. So blame Bettman.
Of course you can, but when you come on a rival team's board and mention things like Crosby is indirectly ruining the game, or that Pittsburgh is an upcoming market, you need to back that up.

However, I appreciate you at least explaining your reasoning in recent posts at least in regards to how Crosby is indirectly ruining the game. I disagree, but as you've said, we all have different opinions.

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07-26-2010, 08:51 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Alright, let me explain it this way.

For everything great Crosby/Ovechkin has brought to hockey, and I will be the first to say that the excess publicity in their name in the post-lockout world has been completely instrumental to the NHL's quick turn-around, there's a significant danger in relying too much on this kind of thinking.

I saw someone mention sarcastically that Bird/Magic did the same thing in the NBA, which basically caused the NBA to flourish.

But you also need to eventually explore more than that. Even though the aftereffects of Crosby/Ovechkin will be felt for a decade after they've eventually left the game in the way of new players and new fans worshiping them, it's a double-edged sword.

I'm not trying to be rude when I say this, but you have to admit that Pittsburgh and Washington have a lot of bandwagon fans. For every 10 bandwagon fans that become life-long hockey fans because of Crosby/Ovechkin, there are likely hundreds that don't care and, after Crosby/Ovechkin begins to die, they will turn into something else.

So how do you get more than just 10 bandwagon fans or however many per couple hundred to stay and become actual NHL fans? This is where you establish identity.

You think Joe Shmoe in downtown LA, who started watching the Penguins and became a fan because of Crosby, cares if the Penguins stop winning? He'll turn off the TV fairly quickly, and it's not like the local media cares much about the Penguins. His fix comes from ESPN of course, which is where most young men who are attracted to hockey get their information.

So the legitimate concern I have is this over-saturation of Crosby/Ovechkin. It hasn't reached dangerous levels just yet, but if the sports world is run by ESPN and that's all they ever show, what happens if the product is not worthy of showing anymore?

I don't think it'll happen, but let's say next year the Penguins, Capitals, and Blackhawks miss the playoffs. Where do those bandwagon fans go? New Jersey? Vancouver? Buffalo? Not a chance.

You keep those bandwagon fans by eventually expanding into their markets. LA Pens fan has to be able to pick up a local paper or watch the local news and care what the Kings are doing because if you bank on just ESPN, things start to vanish at the first hint of trouble.

So eventually the NHL has to start broadening things. I don't think they've done a very good job of it so far. That's to be expected though with Versus being the main provider. The limited time on NBC and the Olympics have also helped, but you need to start getting more than Ovechkin/Crosby out there.

Stamkos needs to bring Tampa Bay fans. Doughty needs to bring LA fans. Etc and so on down the line. You get those fans through ESPN, as much as it sucks to admit, but the whole bandwagon world waiting for word on Crosby/Ovechkin is going to eventually come back to haunt us unless the NHL finds someway to cement it and localize fandom.

That's just my opinion anyway. It's not that what Crosby/Ovechkin have done to this point that's bad or ruining the NHL, but it's more the risk that comes with it, if the league does not act appropriately.

Then again, I guess if hockey survived the lockout it will be able to survive another one. That said, I think you can safely assume that Crosby and Ovechkin are our generational talents. It'll take a few years before we know with absolute certainty, but you can be fairly confident at this point. If we lose out on this opportunity, we could languish until we find some replacements. Who knows when that could be...
No offense, but I think you've completely gone off the deep end if you truly believe you're gonna convert bandwagon fans to diehard supporters by changing the focus of the promotion. Non-traditional fans who see Ovy or Sid or Kane and watch the games to see them play, at that point, they're either gonna fall in love with the game or they're not. They aren't gonna tune in to see Sid and then tune out if the league doesn't start saturating their advertising with more stories about a Thorton/Kopitar match-up.

I think you may be suffering from an overdeveloped opinion on the ability of advertising to shape opinion. Marketing can have an effect on popular opinion if done right, but its not gonna convert non-fans into fans with a tweak in focus. It doesn't work that way.

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07-26-2010, 09:52 AM
  #106
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Yeah, I mean, the idea is to get them into the arena, or to watch a few games. That's it.

From there they can develop an appreciation for other players and the nuances of the game. Or not, but that won't have anything to do with promotion and marketing at that point.

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07-26-2010, 10:04 AM
  #107
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Is Zetterberg not a center?
Thats what im saying hes top 5

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07-26-2010, 10:11 AM
  #108
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Are people still suggesting Datsyuk is better than Malkin with a straight face? He pulls playoff disappearing acts and isn't even a top five offensive center at this point. I don't even want to get started on how Mike ****ing Richards, Henrik Sedin, and Jonathan Toews are better than Malkin.

The top three at this point are Crosby, Malkin, and Backstrom. Obligatorily, "it's not even close."

Malkin had 15 more points than Richards in 15 less games, even in the worst season of his career and playing with Ruslan Fedotenko and Max Talbot.
I agree that Malkin is better than Datsyuk but to say hes pulls disappearing acts? i kinda dont get that i think hes an incredible player and talent and is def a top 3 center in the league with Backstrom and zetterberg. Which by the way no zetterberg on here is a joke

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07-26-2010, 10:20 AM
  #109
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You think there were any Chicago Bulls fans before Jordan????? Now look at how many there are. Not as many as 10 years ago....but a heck of a lot more then 30 years ago.

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07-26-2010, 10:27 AM
  #110
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Well Toews certainly has ridden the hypewagon to maximum extent.

I just cant rank a guy who cant hit a point per game pace over a 100+ point center.

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07-26-2010, 11:23 AM
  #111
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I agree that Malkin is better than Datsyuk but to say hes pulls disappearing acts? i kinda dont get that i think hes an incredible player and talent and is def a top 3 center in the league with Backstrom and zetterberg.
So how many top 3 centers are there?

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07-26-2010, 11:33 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Anderson55 View Post
I agree that Malkin is better than Datsyuk but to say hes pulls disappearing acts? i kinda dont get that i think hes an incredible player and talent and is def a top 3 center in the league with Backstrom and zetterberg. Which by the way no zetterberg on here is a joke
So your top 3 centers are Datsyuk, Backstrom, and Zetterberg?

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07-26-2010, 01:31 PM
  #113
Florentino Ariza
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Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
Well Toews certainly has ridden the hypewagon to maximum extent.

I just cant rank a guy who cant hit a point per game pace over a 100+ point center.
Yea...Toes is great, but he is one of the most overrated players in the NHL. Mike Richards is far better

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07-26-2010, 01:37 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Alright, let me explain it this way.

For everything great Crosby/Ovechkin has brought to hockey, and I will be the first to say that the excess publicity in their name in the post-lockout world has been completely instrumental to the NHL's quick turn-around, there's a significant danger in relying too much on this kind of thinking.

I saw someone mention sarcastically that Bird/Magic did the same thing in the NBA, which basically caused the NBA to flourish.

But you also need to eventually explore more than that. Even though the aftereffects of Crosby/Ovechkin will be felt for a decade after they've eventually left the game in the way of new players and new fans worshiping them, it's a double-edged sword.

I'm not trying to be rude when I say this, but you have to admit that Pittsburgh and Washington have a lot of bandwagon fans. For every 10 bandwagon fans that become life-long hockey fans because of Crosby/Ovechkin, there are likely hundreds that don't care and, after Crosby/Ovechkin begins to die, they will turn into something else.

So how do you get more than just 10 bandwagon fans or however many per couple hundred to stay and become actual NHL fans? This is where you establish identity.

You think Joe Shmoe in downtown LA, who started watching the Penguins and became a fan because of Crosby, cares if the Penguins stop winning? He'll turn off the TV fairly quickly, and it's not like the local media cares much about the Penguins. His fix comes from ESPN of course, which is where most young men who are attracted to hockey get their information.

So the legitimate concern I have is this over-saturation of Crosby/Ovechkin. It hasn't reached dangerous levels just yet, but if the sports world is run by ESPN and that's all they ever show, what happens if the product is not worthy of showing anymore?

I don't think it'll happen, but let's say next year the Penguins, Capitals, and Blackhawks miss the playoffs. Where do those bandwagon fans go? New Jersey? Vancouver? Buffalo? Not a chance.

You keep those bandwagon fans by eventually expanding into their markets. LA Pens fan has to be able to pick up a local paper or watch the local news and care what the Kings are doing because if you bank on just ESPN, things start to vanish at the first hint of trouble.

So eventually the NHL has to start broadening things. I don't think they've done a very good job of it so far. That's to be expected though with Versus being the main provider. The limited time on NBC and the Olympics have also helped, but you need to start getting more than Ovechkin/Crosby out there.

Stamkos needs to bring Tampa Bay fans. Doughty needs to bring LA fans. Etc and so on down the line. You get those fans through ESPN, as much as it sucks to admit, but the whole bandwagon world waiting for word on Crosby/Ovechkin is going to eventually come back to haunt us unless the NHL finds someway to cement it and localize fandom.

That's just my opinion anyway. It's not that what Crosby/Ovechkin have done to this point that's bad or ruining the NHL, but it's more the risk that comes with it, if the league does not act appropriately.

Then again, I guess if hockey survived the lockout it will be able to survive another one. That said, I think you can safely assume that Crosby and Ovechkin are our generational talents. It'll take a few years before we know with absolute certainty, but you can be fairly confident at this point. If we lose out on this opportunity, we could languish until we find some replacements. Who knows when that could be...
The NHL can only do so much to try to get casual fans to care about their hometown teams. It certainly is up to the players in each market to draw in fans and it is the NHL's job to get a better network than Versus to broadcast the games, but I think the strategy of heavily marketing Sid v Ovi is an excellent one because the rivalry is real and so good. It seems to me like you are angry because the best players are not from your team, and that is clouding your judgment.

Marketing in and of itself will never get those casual fans to become more serious ones. The best thing the NHL can do is advertise the best it has to offer and hope it gets people interested in hockey. It remains to be seen if America will respond.

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07-26-2010, 02:44 PM
  #115
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Yea...Toes is great, but he is one of the most overrated players in the NHL. Mike Richards is far better
I wholeheartedly disagree.

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07-26-2010, 03:25 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
I wholeheartedly disagree.
I shouldn't have said far better, but I'd rather have Mike Richards than Toews. When it comes down to it, though, their styles are very similar.

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07-26-2010, 11:53 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Dupree13 View Post
I really don't understand when people call Malkin a floater. I've never seen him float. Sometimes he's a little aimless out there and maybe a little careless
While I disagree with the list and I think Malkin will bounce back in a big way...Geno definitely floats more than most of the names on that list (with the exception of Thornton).

Him being "aimless" is him floating. Don't try to dress it up as otherwise. You are simply being untruthful if you claim that you have NEVER seen him coast.

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07-26-2010, 11:59 PM
  #118
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And if it were me, I'd replace Thornton with Eric Staal.

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07-27-2010, 02:14 AM
  #119
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And if it were me, I'd replace Thornton with Eric Staal.
Could not agree more.

The list wasn't TOO bad, but the author of it definitely places too much stock in a great two-way game (which is obviousy incredibly important). I mean how do you have Getzlaf at 10 and Staal not on the list, and Malkin at 6. Three of the better centres in the world. Am a huge fan of Toews and Koivu, but come on. Lower Richards, Toews, and Koivu, and raise the other three. Also not willing to put Sedin third after one season of stellar play.

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07-27-2010, 03:57 AM
  #120
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Yeah, I mean, the idea is to get them into the arena, or to watch a few games. That's it.

From there they can develop an appreciation for other players and the nuances of the game. Or not, but that won't have anything to do with promotion and marketing at that point.
Pretty much this. I don't buy the oversaturation argument period, especially when we're talking about a niche sport like hockey. The NHL more than any other league has to rely on their stars. The average ESPN viewer doesn't know who Ryan Getzlaf and Drew Doughty are, why would they be intrigued by that matchup if they aren't hockey fans? As a very casual NBA viewer, the likelihood of me watching a Kobe / LeBron matchup is miles better than me watching a couple teams who have borderline top 10 players. It's just how it is for me, and I suspect that many others are like that with hockey.

Now, I can't really get into the NBA seriously because I don't generally think it's a great spectator sport, but in that case no amount of marketing is going to make much of an impact on me. They're better off advertising the big time matchups to me because that's all I'd watch. But not everybody is like that - some people who aren't NBA fans will like what they see, and they'll become fans of the game.

I mean, does anybody think the NHL is actually worried they'll get too many bandwagon fans? What kind of nonsensical argument is that? Whether they become lifetime fans is irrelevant, because who says any other approach would be more likely to garner hardcore fans? Only serious fans are going to go out of their way to watch a Carolina / Boston game, and to get hardcore fans you have to first attract casual viewers to the game with recognizable star players that they think are worth watching over, say, an NBA / MLB game.

I agree that the NHL really needs to get back on ESPN again, but who says that can't still happen? Or that another approach would have gotten us closer to that lucrative TV deal?

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07-27-2010, 09:41 AM
  #121
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So your top 3 centers are Datsyuk, Backstrom, and Zetterberg?
No sorry my writting is crap when i smoke dope

Crosby, Malkin, Datysuk Zetterberg, and Backstrom

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07-27-2010, 10:12 AM
  #122
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No sorry my writting is crap when i smoke dope

Crosby, Malkin, Datysuk Zetterberg, and Backstrom
Haha.

You can make an argument for Datsyuk, but Zetterberg doesn't even deserve to be spoken in the same breath.

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07-27-2010, 10:38 AM
  #123
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Haha.

You can make an argument for Datsyuk, but Zetterberg doesn't even deserve to be spoken in the same breath.
Really? to me it depends on what you go by, he doesnt have the Regular season numbers but come playoff time he as good as anyone. He plays a great 2 way game and is an offensive force, conn smythe winner. To me hes right there with Datsyuk. Zetterberg has completely shut Crosby down in 2 Stanley Cup finals, while still being an offensive threat himself

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07-27-2010, 10:50 AM
  #124
JTG
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Originally Posted by Anderson55 View Post
Really? to me it depends on what you go by, he doesnt have the Regular season numbers but come playoff time he as good as anyone. He plays a great 2 way game and is an offensive force, conn smythe winner. To me hes right there with Datsyuk. Zetterberg has completely shut Crosby down in 2 Stanley Cup finals, while still being an offensive threat himself
I wouldn't be so quick to say that Zetterberg shut down Crosby. I think the defensive pairing of Lidstrom-Rafalski had way more to do with that.

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07-27-2010, 11:01 AM
  #125
Anderson55
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
I wouldn't be so quick to say that Zetterberg shut down Crosby. I think the defensive pairing of Lidstrom-Rafalski had way more to do with that.
Oh ya they def had a part but zettsw as a big part of it as well, he was with him all the way. Big moment was i wanna say game 4? in 08 when crosby could have tied it on the door step with an empty net and Zetterberg tied up his stick, that one hurt alot, game 4 was painful with that failed 5 on 3

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