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Old
07-26-2010, 02:55 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I'm sorry, that's dressing up "if he wasn't an idiot" in nicer lingo.



Ah, that's cuz Clarke could explain his decisions in rational ways.

Q: Paul, why on God's green Earth would you put Randy Jones on recall waivers?
A: What can you do?



How? You haven't offered one bit of hard factual information that proves Clarke wasn't entirely accurate in his evaluation of the situation. Your assessment rests entirely on a belief that Clarke could have made an offer to Richter that would have gotten him to sign with the Flyers over the Rangers... even if the Rangers matched (which they absolutely would have).



Yet built three different teams that made it to Cup Finals... lots of flawed decisions there.
So now we are engaging in parsing of statements...much easier to decontextualize arguments that way......

You are also still interpreting in the extreme to totally discount my argument. You can read into it all you want....still never called him an idiot.

His decision was ultimately flawed in his evaluation of the situation because Beezer didn't pan out (2 yrs) while Richter went on to play a good amount of years (despite career being cut short by injury) on a bad team no less (you think he might have wanted to play on a better team?). Also McCarthy and Bureau for the 1M he could have offered to Richter as a game changer to the negotiations didn't pan out either. The two of them were busts. His argument about needing money to sign Brind'Amour and Lindros doesn't really add up to much considering there was no cap and again they used the money for two marginal additions anyway. Then you have Boucher and Pelletier not panning out either both of which were traded. This is all evidence backed up by Clarke's own explanations for going after Beezer. You keep focusing on solely the agent argument when Clarke's own words show that he considered more than that and ulitmately he miscalculated.

Seriously, what have you offered as evidence. You do not know if the Rangers would have matched especially after coming off an "off year" and had the financial leverage to possibly "outbid" Toronto for Cujo who posted the best numbers out of the 3. You cannot say ABSOLUTELY they would have matched. Where is the evidence?


Clarke could not explain his decisions in rational ways because he would get all irritated about personal grievances so you are incorrect. Sharp wasn't a rational decision and the excuse that "who could have known he would be good" is rather weak since it's his job to evaluate talent properly. Same with McCrimmon decision to let him go which was another case of taking things personally. There are so many more to name that you probably don't recall given your age...


So Holmgren has taken the team to the Stanley cup finals and ECF's a couple of times in in pretty short career. Has he won it all ...NO! Does that suggest Holmgren has made flawed decisions still...YES.....

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07-26-2010, 03:07 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Joseph wasn't coming here, and I don't think Richter was actually interested in leaving NY. He still lives in CT and has run for political office... pretty sure he is and was quite attached to living there. Beezer wasn't a horrible pickup, not ideal, but the sense at the time was he was the first choice and as it has come out there are serious holes in that theory... not the least of which being Cujo especially was attached to going somewhere else.

Richter was also coming off a less than stellar year and it wasn't clear there was all that much separating him and Beezer.
I dont recall that being the case at all, Joseph not wanting to xcome here. It was well known Richter wasnt leaving NY, unless i suppose such an offer he couldnt turn down. The whoel joseph didnt want to come here i dotn recall that at all, not sayign it may not be correct, i just dont remember that being the case. Neilson wanted beezer, i recall it was as simple as that really.

Also anyoen cpmcparing Shooter to Clarke, is comical. Shooter couldnt hold Clarke's jockstrap when it comes to being a GM. Is it any wonder why Holmgren was never ever offered another GM job after Hartford? Was the guy even interviewed for one? Was ever in contention for one?

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07-26-2010, 03:11 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
The Flyers did this already, last summer by hiring Jeff Reese. Reese, in my opinion, is one of the best goaltending coaches in the league. We saw what he was able to do with Leighton. I can't wait to see how he's able to work with Bobrobsky in training camp.
Wow, now Reese is one of the best in the league. what exactly has he doen to garner that title?

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07-26-2010, 03:15 PM
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This is in no way thread related but I do I ignore someone on here?

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07-26-2010, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
Neilson wanted beezer, i recall it was as simple as that really
It may be as simple as that in the end but Clarke in his explanations which I cited and expounded upon never confirmed that but there may be something out there that does. Obviously Nielson is no longer a source. Again somebody is going to have to ask Richter if he was willing to leave if the Flyers didn't concede and somebody is going to have to ask the Rangers if they absolutely would have matched when they could woo Joseph to the big appple with all their money. There are too many variables to claim absolutes in this scenario.

As far as Holmgren and Clarke...well I'm not sure who is least worst...but I'm still waiting for a cup parade....

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07-26-2010, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
It may be as simple as that in the end but Clarke in his explanations which I cited and expounded upon never confirmed that but there may be something out there that does. Obviously Nielson is no longer a source. Again somebody is going to have to ask Richter if he was willing to leave if the Flyers didn't concede and somebody is going to have to ask the Rangers if they absolutely would have matched when they could woo Joseph to the big appple with all their money. There are too many variables to claim absolutes in this scenario.

As far as Holmgren and Clarke...well I'm not sure who is least worst...but I'm still waiting for a cup parade....
well i bet of they offered richter the sun adn moon he porbably would have left. It was well known at the time he didnt want to leave NY. Your right only a few people know the story and none of us will never no.

If your nto sure who the least worse is, then all i can say is wow. They diff is night and day.

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07-26-2010, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post

If your nto sure who the least worse is, then all i can say is wow. They diff is night and day.
Well the reason is that I never saw Clarke operate under a Cap.....knowing his penchant for not liking the contract side of the business I would have figured he would have not done too well either. I do know that I had to suffer the worst season in Flyers history because of him and Primeau although I wouldn't have let Primeau dictate things the way he did. Another example of the loyality cosa nostra tendency of this organization. Business is business and I would have given Primeau the business for holding the team hostage. Anyway..no cup for 36 years...tandem effort thus far..whaddaya gonna do.

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07-26-2010, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Well the reason is that I never saw Clarke operate under a Cap.....knowing his penchant for not liking the contract side of the business I would have figured he would have not done too well either. I do know that I had to suffer the worst season in Flyers history because of him and Primeau although I wouldn't have let Primeau dictate things the way he did. Another example of the loyality cosa nostra tendency of this organization. Business is business and I would have given Primeau the business for holding the team hostage. Anyway..no cup for 36 years...tandem effort thus far..whaddaya gonna do.
Clarke was a very good neogitator. He didnt give the store away for the most part. He played hardball with the best of him. He had his faults no doubt and gacve out few bad deals though. He rarely got taken in a deal. He gave up a lot of draft chocies but he always acquired them as well. Shooter imo cant hold a candle to Clarke. Each is there own though.

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07-26-2010, 04:59 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Well the reason is that I never saw Clarke operate under a Cap.....knowing his penchant for not liking the contract side of the business I would have figured he would have not done too well either. I do know that I had to suffer the worst season in Flyers history because of him and Primeau although I wouldn't have let Primeau dictate things the way he did. Another example of the loyality cosa nostra tendency of this organization. Business is business and I would have given Primeau the business for holding the team hostage. Anyway..no cup for 36 years...tandem effort thus far..whaddaya gonna do.
The worst season in history falls on Primeau's shoulders. Primeau held this team hostage and they couldn't improve without him retiring and freeing up money. The problem with Primeau, and it's been well documented, was that while the Flyers doctors would never clear him to play again, he continued to go to specialist to specialist to specialist to get a second opinion hoping to clear him. That tied Clarke's hands.

As well, nobody knew that the Kyle Calder/Michal Handzus trade was going to turn out as bad as it did. When the deal was made, lots of hockey people were talking about how good of a deal it was for the Flyers. Nobody knew that Calder was going to turn out to be a dog.

Finally, that locker room that year was a mess. When Primeau and Desjardins retired and when Handzus was traded, that hurt Hitch's locker room leadership group that he assembled. When Hitch was finally let go, the locker room hated each other. You had the veterans on one side of the room telling the younger players to shut up and listen to the coach and you had the younger players telling the veterans that the coach didn't listen to them, so why should they listen to him. It was an absolute mess.

Nobody knew things were going to blow up that bad. I certainly don't blame that on Clarke. If there is anything I blame on Clarke though, it was that he said he was burnt out and that he knew his time had come at the end of the 05-06 season. If that were the case, he should have vacated his position then so that it would have given someone else time to re-assemble the roster. That's the only time I blame Clarke for anything.

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07-26-2010, 05:45 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Richter was NEVER going to come to Philadelphia. He was using the Flyers as a means of leverage in contract negotiations with the Rangers. Richter made it abundantly clear that he never intended on leaving the Rangers.



Clarke also went to Roger Neilsen with a list of three goaltenders - Cujo, Richter, Vanbiesbrouck and asked Neilsen which one he would prefer. Nielsen also liked the idea of Vanbiesbrouck because of their time in Florida.

As Jester pointed out, Curtis Joseph was going to Toronto and he didn't want to go anywhere else. Mike Richter was staying in New York and only used the Flyers as leverage for getting a huge contract from the Rangers. The Flyers chose Vanbiesbrouck because of Clarke and Neilsen's familiarity with him and the fact that both liked him.

Don't assume it was all Clarke on this one because he went to Neilsen with the list and Neilsen chose JVB.
WTF- and from a few of the most educated. Joseph wanted Philly, Clarkie was the problem, if we put egos aside and put joseph in the net we win the cup simple as that.

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07-26-2010, 06:51 PM
  #36
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As u probably know, I'm a homer fan! One of the things he has improved in the past three years is our goaltenders and everything surrounding the position.

If u want a good NHL goalie, it was a crapshoot for Philly. However, with Reese on board, goalie scouts in Europe (goalie only), we r now seeing the results! Bobrovsky signed out of Europe, Eriksson drafted late round....was hand picked by the scouts. Leighton and emery had great years with Reese working with them. I expect backlund and bobo to flourish under Reese as well, we are turning into Nashville, or a world class goalie factory. How? Organization has put it as a priority, improved in all areas and we shall soon reap the rewards.

My two cents....

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07-26-2010, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
As u probably know, I'm a homer fan! One of the things he has improved in the past three years is our goaltenders and everything surrounding the position.

If u want a good NHL goalie, it was a crapshoot for Philly. However, with Reese on board, goalie scouts in Europe (goalie only), we r now seeing the results! Bobrovsky signed out of Europe, Eriksson drafted late round....was hand picked by the scouts. Leighton and emery had great years with Reese working with them. I expect backlund and bobo to flourish under Reese as well, we are turning into Nashville, or a world class goalie factory. How? Organization has put it as a priority, improved in all areas and we shall soon reap the rewards.

My two cents....
why do you expect them to flourish under reese? What has he done to create this confidence or aura about him? He didnt exactly do that great a job in Tampa did he? Until they actaully develop a guy, they are not developing into a world class goalie factory by a longhsot.

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07-26-2010, 07:34 PM
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yes, thank god for leighton. without him, kane couldn't have won the stanley cup.

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07-26-2010, 07:42 PM
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Goaltending? What's that?

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07-26-2010, 07:51 PM
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Goaltending? What's that?
Its this new fad in Europe.

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07-26-2010, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
For the same reasons not all teams have a Ryan Miller-type goalie. It just isn't that easy. I honestly don't believe that the Flyers brass sits around and says, "Pff, goaltending? Who cares!"
Actually, thats exactly what I believe they do. Look at this offseason. After resigning our RFA's we had something like 6.8 mil left to get a defenseman and a goalie. Pretty simple. There are lots of quality guys out there on the FA market, and what does management do? They spend money on guys like Walker, Odonnell, Shelly, Zherdev and Meszaros. We get into so much cap trouble we have to give up Simon Fing Gagne, and still we go with the cheapest option available in net.

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07-26-2010, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
As u probably know, I'm a homer fan! One of the things he has improved in the past three years is our goaltenders and everything surrounding the position.

If u want a good NHL goalie, it was a crapshoot for Philly. However, with Reese on board, goalie scouts in Europe (goalie only), we r now seeing the results! Bobrovsky signed out of Europe, Eriksson drafted late round....was hand picked by the scouts. Leighton and emery had great years with Reese working with them. I expect backlund and bobo to flourish under Reese as well, we are turning into Nashville, or a world class goalie factory. How? Organization has put it as a priority, improved in all areas and we shall soon reap the rewards.

My two cents....
I will "see" the results when they're playing for the Flyers posting "W's." Until then they are prospects that haven't proven a ******* thing. Lets hold off on patting management on the back please.

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07-26-2010, 08:00 PM
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Actually, thats exactly what I believe they do. Look at this offseason. After resigning our RFA's we had something like 6.8 mil left to get a defenseman and a goalie. Pretty simple. There are lots of quality guys out there on the FA market, and what does management do? They spend money on guys like Walker, Odonnell, Shelly, Zherdev and Meszaros. We get into so much cap trouble we have to give up Simon Fing Gagne, and still we go with the cheapest option available in net.
Which one?

Martin Biron .9M
Dan Ellis 1.5M

No we gave MFL 1.55M before free agency even started.

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07-26-2010, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
Which one?

Martin Biron .9M
Dan Ellis 1.5M

No we gave MFL 1.55M before free agency even started.
Yeah but they have Jeff Reese. We all know that with a full year and Reese the goalie guru wokring with him, the results can only be stellar. I swear the players must laugh their ass off behind Shooters back, then cry when they go to bed realizing who their goalie is at this time.

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07-26-2010, 08:32 PM
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Yeah but they have Jeff Reese. We all know that with a full year and Reese the goalie guru wokring with him, the results can only be stellar. I swear the players must laugh their ass off behind Shooters back, then cry when they go to bed realizing who their goalie is at this time.
Seriously depressing to think about. I have been on teams with horrible goaltending. The hardest part is having to constantly cover for their ass, having to take the blame so it doesn't hurt their eggshell egos, and trying to hide your trust issues with them. Everytime you step out on the ice, you feel like you cannot take chances. It makes me die a little on the inside when I see an elite defense like the Flyers have who are playing in front of a goalie that can't even control his rebounds and is constantly out of position. To have a goalie who is THAT dependent on his defense is ****ing disgraceful.

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07-26-2010, 08:34 PM
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If you don't make it a priority, it's not going to happen. I think under Holmgren the Flyers have tried to take a bunch of shots at guys, they won't move up to draft a kid five years from doing anything but they took two goalies in the middle rounds, one of whom is getting some buzz, and they signed a promising young russian.

we'll take lundqvist off your hands if you're bored with him though.

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07-26-2010, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
Seriously depressing to think about. I have been on teams with horrible goaltending. The hardest part is having to constantly cover for their ass, having to take the blame so it doesn't hurt their eggshell egos, and trying to hide your trust issues with them. Everytime you step out on the ice, you feel like you cannot take chances. It makes me die a little on the inside when I see an elite defense like the Flyers have who are playing in front of a goalie that can't even control his rebounds and is constantly out of position. To have a goalie who is THAT dependent on his defense is ****ing disgraceful.
I just used to shoot VERY HIGH on goalies like this in practice..........kind of like when the Flyers did it to Chechmanek after he showed them up on the ice for having an anemic offense in the playoffs that one year. He had a point just didn't have to do it in the middle of a playoff game....

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07-26-2010, 09:21 PM
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Wow, now Reese is one of the best in the league. what exactly has he doen to garner that title?
wow, now people on HFboards are telling others that they aren't entitled to an opinion? i never claimed it to be any more than such. I think he's a great goaltending coach. He won a stanley cup with tampa bay and was no doubt a big part in leightons great stretch. That's called my opinion. No need to condescend.

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07-26-2010, 09:23 PM
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Some Headmanek History

Some of this still sounds familiar today...I still recall the offense being mostly anemic but yeah he had his chokers against Ottawa...

Still....imagine if he had the goal support Leighton did!

Quote:
Cechmanek was 33-15-10 with a 1.83 goals-against average in the regular season, helping the Flyers finish just one point behind first-place New Jersey in the Atlantic Division.

But Cechmanek played poorly in the final two games of Philadelphia's second-round series against Ottawa, allowing nine goals on 46 shots.

The Czech native has a 1.96 lifetime goals-against average in three seasons, lowest among goaltenders with at least 150 regular-season games since 1943-44.

"It's an interesting situation with Roman," Clarke said. "He's runner-up for the Vezina (Trophy) one year, he's tied for the lowest goals-against in the league and his save percentage is always good, but his playoffs have been inconsistent.

"He shuts a team out one night, but when you get down to the nitty gritty and you let a soft goal in, it takes a lot out of your team emotionally."

Cechmanek, whose unconventional style sometimes left him vulnerable to rebounds, has had ups and downs since becoming the Flyers' starter in 2001.

In the 2003 playoffs, he won his first playoff series in three tries by shutting down Toronto, giving up only four goals in the last three games. In the Ottawa series, Cechmanek had two shutouts before the Flyers fell apart in the last two games, losing 5-2 and 5-1.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hocke...echmanek_x.htm

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07-26-2010, 09:35 PM
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wow, now people on HFboards are telling others that they aren't entitled to an opinion? i never claimed it to be any more than such. I think he's a great goaltending coach. He won a stanley cup with tampa bay and was no doubt a big part in leightons great stretch. That's called my opinion. No need to condescend.
Yeah it is your opinion. So who has he developed to be called a great goaltending coach? Who has he been instrumental in having sustained NHL success? So why do you think he is a great goaltending coach as i would really like to hear your opinion on it? He won a cup with Tampa as a coach so what exactly does that have to do with naything??

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