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2010/11 Calgary Flames - Not as bad as everyone thinks?

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Old
08-09-2010, 03:05 PM
  #76
abracanada
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When you have a team with some talent, they can rebound off of these bad years.
Vancouver bounced back from a pretty poor, out of the playoffs year to take the division two years in a row.

You can assume the Sedin's will run roughshod over the league again but the law of averages says they will regress towards the mean.

By the same token, you can assume the Flames will drop like a rock in the standings (playing well below their potential) but that usually doesn't happen that way either unless there are major injuries to key players.

And the Flames did clearly play well below their potential last year for most of them.

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08-09-2010, 03:07 PM
  #77
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Vancouver won a lot of games by putting up big offensive come backs. I don't think those will be a common as they were last year, but then again; their defence is a lot better so they may not get into that situation. Luongo needs a bounce back year or they'll need to start worrying about 11 years at 6M.
Exactly, now that they have a decent defensive core and retained almost all of their offensive talent (a young group to boot) they will be one of the best teams in the leauge. Luongo is one of the elite goalies in the game regardless of last year. Now that he doesn't have pilons in front of him Vancouver should be casting a shadow, not only over the NW, but over the enitre WC. Not only that they have so many good young players and prospects that it makes me want to puke...sad time for teams in the NW.

If you think I'm an idiot then remember this post come spring next year...VAN will make it to the WCF, and potentially challenge for the cup.

The flames are not as bad as everyone thinks, but we are also not vastly improved. We bring back Jokinen at a discount great, but it sounds like D.Sutter has 1st line aspirations for him again. To think that Tanguay is going to solve our top line offensive problems is just desperate IMO. Bottom line is that sutter couldn't cut a deal for a star forward so we're left with plan C (or D, or E, etc...).

On a positive note flames have a lot more depth then I can ever remember. The key to success for this team is to get over the keenan hangover already and play the way B.Sutter tried to force them to last season (what a horrible trainwreck). Otherwise we'll all be pretty depressed come april.

Keenan was the worst thing that happened to this team in the last 5 years, hopefully the extent of that damage was delt with last season.

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08-09-2010, 03:23 PM
  #78
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Vancouver won a lot of games by putting up big offensive come backs. I don't think those will be a common as they were last year, but then again; their defence is a lot better so they may not get into that situation. Luongo needs a bounce back year or they'll need to start worrying about 11 years at 6M.
The Canucks were also dealing with far more injuries than the Flames, can't dismiss that.

$5,333,333 is Luongo's cap hit, not 6m, but he does need to have a better season. The defense is different but it remains to be seen if it is indeed better. They should be more durable but who knows if the chemistry will work. AVs teams are notorious for being slow starting, so it could be awhile before anyone has an answer on that front.

For what it's worth, THN is predicting a significant offensive drop for the Canucks.

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08-09-2010, 03:40 PM
  #79
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[QUOTE=mrmyheadhurts;27305433]The Canucks were also dealing with far more injuries than the Flames, can't dismiss that.

$5,333,333 is Luongo's cap hit, not 6m, but he does need to have a better season. The defense is different but it remains to be seen if it is indeed better. They should be more durable but who knows if the chemistry will work. AVs teams are notorious for being slow starting, so it could be awhile before anyone has an answer on that front.

For what it's worth, THN is predicting a significant offensive drop for the Canucks.[/QUOTE]

If that is true Luongo MUST play better. Curious though what did THN base that statement on... the law of averages?

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08-09-2010, 04:46 PM
  #80
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If that is true Luongo MUST play better. Curious though what did THN base that statement on... the law of averages?
I guess so. A lot of Canucks had career years last season and they are expecting them to play more to their perceived level this season. They're predicting 59points for Kesler which seems a little low to me but we'll see.

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08-09-2010, 05:29 PM
  #81
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The flames are not as bad as everyone thinks, but we are also not vastly improved. We bring back Jokinen at a discount great, but it sounds like D.Sutter has 1st line aspirations for him again. To think that Tanguay is going to solve our top line offensive problems is just desperate IMO. Bottom line is that sutter couldn't cut a deal for a star forward so we're left with plan C (or D, or E, etc...).
What is the exact perception of the Flames from everyone? I can attest that I think and most people I know think that this team is around a 7th-9th place team. I don't consider squeezing into the playoffs good but that's where the team is.

Quote:
Keenan was the worst thing that happened to this team in the last 5 years, hopefully the extent of that damage was delt with last season.
Keenan managed better than Brent Sutter and Jim Playfair and I do not see what he did that carried over in 09/10.

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08-09-2010, 05:36 PM
  #82
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I guess so. A lot of Canucks had career years last season and they are expecting them to play more to their perceived level this season. They're predicting 59points for Kesler which seems a little low to me but we'll see.
It makes sense. Henrik raised his game when his brother was injured. A number of Canucks raised their game as a matter of fact. They had a slap in the face because of the injury and they responded. They rallied around that injury and never looked back.

I know the Flames (Bouwmeester, Iginla, Langkow and Regehr in particular) had a slap in the face. Add to that two more players who have a lot to prove (Jokinen and Tanguay) and you have a roster full of players who have been challenged to better their game. Will they meet the challenge? I think they will or you can expect a lot of them to be moving.

The Canucks have more new faces but that isn't any guarantee of success. I still think they never should have moved Ohlund. As a group, the defence never produced as well and eventually, when the chips were down, they showed it.

The Canucks (and Henrik Sedin) will be very hard pressed to accomplish that offensive output next year. If they do, more power to them. They are a better team than I thought they were.

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08-09-2010, 05:53 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Stanford and Sons View Post
What is the exact perception of the Flames from everyone? I can attest that I think and most people I know think that this team is around a 7th-9th place team. I don't consider squeezing into the playoffs good but that's where the team is.



Keenan managed better than Brent Sutter and Jim Playfair and I do not see what he did that carried over in 09/10.
What I have seen on this thread is people thinking we can rival the canucks for the NW which leaves us in 3rd. Won't happen.

How did Keenan manage better?! By having no sense of team defense and losing games 9-7, leaving kipper out to dry, and ruining calgary's identity as a tough defensive team. It was embarrassing to watch how he handled the bench most nights, no wonder Regehr blasted him in the papers at seasons end. The only reason B.Sutter had such a tough time last year was that he had to pick up the pieces from Keenan who left the flames with no sense of system or identity. I'd rather lose a game 2-1 than 9-7, 9-6, etc...his coaching was a joke.

The only reason I have hope for this season is because Sutter is behind the bench. Hopefully with the majority of players having played under him for a number of games now they know what to expect. If they play the way they did at the tail end of last season this will be a playoff team.

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08-09-2010, 06:28 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by mrmyheadhurts View Post
I guess so. A lot of Canucks had career years last season and they are expecting them to play more to their perceived level this season. They're predicting 59points for Kesler which seems a little low to me but we'll see.
Did they predict for the flames too?

Funny how Nucks fans show up as soon as you bash their team.

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08-09-2010, 10:38 PM
  #85
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Did they predict for the flames too?

Funny how Nucks fans show up as soon as you bash their team.
They hide under the rocks and troll then jump out within miliseconds of said issue

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08-09-2010, 11:10 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by The Gnome View Post
How did Keenan manage better?! By having no sense of team defense and losing games 9-7, leaving kipper out to dry, and ruining calgary's identity as a tough defensive team. It was embarrassing to watch how he handled the bench most nights, no wonder Regehr blasted him in the papers at seasons end. The only reason B.Sutter had such a tough time last year was that he had to pick up the pieces from Keenan who left the flames with no sense of system or identity.
Both used flawed strategies in running the bench, for Brent Sutter I could replace leaving Kipper out to dry with leaving Iginla out to dry, bolstering Calgary's defensive identity at the expense of their offensive identity. I do wonder though, how many of the goals against could be blamed on Keenan (much like I wonder how many of Iginla's problems were because of Sutter). Kipprusoff was a sieve that season, much like how much of the system's problems could be blamed on Sutter last year, especially when the team seemed to do well in Nov/Dec but then fell apart in January and never recovered. Keenan's fault right?

Sorry, both did poorly in the last two seasons, I'm just more inclined to give credit to the one that managed to obtain results.


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08-09-2010, 11:20 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Stanford and Sons View Post
Both used flawed strategies in running the bench, for Brent Sutter I could replace leaving Kipper out to dry with leaving Iginla out to dry, bolstering Calgary's defensive identity at the expense of their offensive identity. I do wonder though, how many of the goals against could be blamed on Keenan. Kipprusoff was a sieve that season, much like how much of the system's problems could be blamed on Sutter last year, especially when the team seemed to do well in Nov/Dec but then fell apart in January and never recovered. Keenan's fault right?

Sorry, both did poorly in the last two seasons, I'm just more inclined to give credit to the one that managed to obtain results.
and Keenan's team still pushed the Hawks to 6 games despite Cammalleri and Iginla being invisible... Regehr & Giordano being injured... Sarich, Phaneuf, Langkow and Bourque playing with serious injuries

while Sutter's 'superior' team didn't even really get a sniff of the playoffs

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08-09-2010, 11:24 PM
  #88
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Did they predict for the flames too?

Funny how Nucks fans show up as soon as you bash their team.
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Originally Posted by GoFlames View Post
They hide under the rocks and troll then jump out within miliseconds of said issue
I view a lot of other teams boards and post my respectful opinion on my Canucks and other teams as well. I thought that was what made these boards unique, inter-fan discussion. If this is trolling to you guys then I guess I'll stop posting in the Flames section. It's a shame though, I've never had problems with other teams boards.

I didn't think anyone was bashing the Canucks by the way, I was actually posting THN thing because it seemed to align with what many of you were thinking.

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08-09-2010, 11:36 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by mrmyheadhurts View Post
I view a lot of other teams boards and post my respectful opinion on my Canucks and other teams as well. I thought that was what made these boards unique, inter-fan discussion. If this is trolling to you guys then I guess I'll stop posting in the Flames section. It's a shame though, I've never had problems with other teams boards.

I didn't think anyone was bashing the Canucks by the way, I was actually posting THN thing because it seemed to align with what many of you were thinking.
We're just giving you a hard time.

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08-09-2010, 11:41 PM
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Not to derail the thread here but I don't think Keenan was the main reason the locker room was in disarray. The locker room problems have been evident for a while. The team has actually been underperforming since the lock out on many levels. Darryll Sutter coaches them and they couldn't score the first year. Then Playfair got the scoring up and the goals against went up as well. Keenan had kind of a mixture but mostly better scoring and higher goals against. All of them went out in the first round of the playoffs.

Interesting that Brent Sutter was the only one who got the goals down to the range his brother had them in and they didn't get into the playoffs. It may be a case of as Kipper goes, so goes the Flames defensively. The trend for scoring has been up and down year after year. I wouldn't blame that on Keenan.

On a brighter note, I asked Panther fans about Jokinen's scoring in Florida and they confirmed he was primarily on the point. He may or may not have been paired up with Bouwmeester they couldn't be too certain about that. Since the Flames had a piss poor power play last year, I want to canvass for Ollie on the point to replace Phaneuf. Ollie wasn't the only guy who was effected considerably by the Flames dependence on Phaneuf for the point shot. Bouwmeester had a pretty crappy offensive year on the power play too. He went from 9 goals down to 1. When you bring in a couple of guys who have specialized on the power play the way these two have, you have to be crazy not to use them.

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08-09-2010, 11:45 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by mrmyheadhurts View Post
I view a lot of other teams boards and post my respectful opinion on my Canucks and other teams as well. I thought that was what made these boards unique, inter-fan discussion. If this is trolling to you guys then I guess I'll stop posting in the Flames section. It's a shame though, I've never had problems with other teams boards.

I didn't think anyone was bashing the Canucks by the way, I was actually posting THN thing because it seemed to align with what many of you were thinking.
I thought your post was spot on so we can always use someone who posts here from another team and talks about things intelligently. I hope you will come back.

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08-09-2010, 11:48 PM
  #92
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On a brighter note, I asked Panther fans about Jokinen's scoring in Florida and they confirmed he was primarily on the point. He may or may not have been paired up with Bouwmeester they couldn't be too certain about that. Since the Flames had a piss poor power play last year, I want to canvass for Ollie on the point to replace Phaneuf. Ollie wasn't the only guy who was effected considerably by the Flames dependence on Phaneuf for the point shot. Bouwmeester had a pretty crappy offensive year on the power play too. He went from 9 goals down to 1. When you bring in a couple of guys who have specialized on the power play the way these two have, you have to be crazy not to use them.
Nice to hear that. When I heard it I was visoning a White/Gio with Jokinen as the #1 PP point tandem. Having Olli on the point allows Backlund/Langkow to jump into the P more often for some minutes.

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08-10-2010, 12:58 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by mrmyheadhurts View Post
I view a lot of other teams boards and post my respectful opinion on my Canucks and other teams as well. I thought that was what made these boards unique, inter-fan discussion. If this is trolling to you guys then I guess I'll stop posting in the Flames section. It's a shame though, I've never had problems with other teams boards.

I didn't think anyone was bashing the Canucks by the way, I was actually posting THN thing because it seemed to align with what many of you were thinking.
Lol, a tad sensitive, well you are lucky as on this board we do not get all frigthty and give infractions to non fans which they do on your board lol. Cry me a river

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08-10-2010, 01:10 AM
  #94
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Exactly, now that they have a decent defensive core and retained almost all of their offensive talent (a young group to boot) they will be one of the best teams in the leauge. Luongo is one of the elite goalies in the game regardless of last year. Now that he doesn't have pilons in front of him Vancouver should be casting a shadow, not only over the NW, but over the enitre WC. Not only that they have so many good young players and prospects that it makes me want to puke...sad time for teams in the NW.

If you think I'm an idiot then remember this post come spring next year...VAN will make it to the WCF, and potentially challenge for the cup.

The flames are not as bad as everyone thinks, but we are also not vastly improved. We bring back Jokinen at a discount great, but it sounds like D.Sutter has 1st line aspirations for him again. To think that Tanguay is going to solve our top line offensive problems is just desperate IMO. Bottom line is that sutter couldn't cut a deal for a star forward so we're left with plan C (or D, or E, etc...).

On a positive note flames have a lot more depth then I can ever remember. The key to success for this team is to get over the keenan hangover already and play the way B.Sutter tried to force them to last season (what a horrible trainwreck). Otherwise we'll all be pretty depressed come april.

Keenan was the worst thing that happened to this team in the last 5 years, hopefully the extent of that damage was delt with last season.
After last season's disaster, Keenan doesn't look so bad. His teams could score goals and at least make the playoffs. Don't forget Kipper was a below-average goalie for those 2 seasons as well. The fact that the team bombed so hard but Kipper actually had a great season puts Brent on the spot imo.

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08-10-2010, 10:07 AM
  #95
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Yeah... Brent has something to prove as well as some players this season no doubt.

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08-10-2010, 11:25 AM
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Anyone who would want Keenan over Sutter

1) How many teams in the west vastly improved last year to knock us out of playoff contention (LA,COL,STL,PHX). Sutter was picking up the pieces of a disaster and he still got a decent pt total by seasons end not far off from Keenan's.

2) Of course Kipper was bad those years...under Keenan. Does no one see that correlation.

3) The best teams in the league know how to produce offense from great neutral zone transition, turnovers, and solid defense...It wins Cups. Sutter knows this, too bad he was left with a steamy pile of Keenan **** and had to re-invente the wheel. Does noone else remember how un-organized the team looked for the first 20 games of the season?

4) This years team will be better. If not then obviously Sutter is not the coach I thought he was. But don't rate him on last years disappointment, because the bulk of the blame should rest on D.Sutters shoulders for having Keenan on board in the first place.

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08-10-2010, 01:37 PM
  #97
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Anyone who would want Keenan over Sutter

1) How many teams in the west vastly improved last year to knock us out of playoff contention (LA,COL,STL,PHX). Sutter was picking up the pieces of a disaster and he still got a decent pt total by seasons end not far off from Keenan's.
That's a stretch, it's a rule in the NHL, every team that improves has to displace another team that didn't. If you can't keep up either as coach or GM, then you shouldn't be playing.

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2) Of course Kipper was bad those years...under Keenan. Does no one see that correlation.
I like to think this is a team game, you can't point to Kipprusoff's stats in any season past 05/06 and see it as a reflection of the team's performance.

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3) The best teams in the league know how to produce offense from great neutral zone transition, turnovers, and solid defense...It wins Cups. Sutter knows this, too bad he was left with a steamy pile of Keenan **** and had to re-invente the wheel. Does noone else remember how un-organized the team looked for the first 20 games of the season?
Then why is it that Sutter got a good start out of the roster? 12 wins 1 OTL in their first 20 games, that would mean a 100+ point season right? This team didn't start to fall apart until the second half of the season, when the offense started to fall apart. In this NHL all the teams that make the playoffs seem to be at least average in both offense and defense. The Flames failed to have an average defense under Keenan and he wasn't a great coach because of that but under Sutter the Flames were the worst offensively in the league. Neither coach did a great job because neither managed to establish a balanced approach to the game. Keenan just managed better because he got more out of this team than Brent did.

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4) This years team will be better. If not then obviously Sutter is not the coach I thought he was. But don't rate him on last years disappointment, because the bulk of the blame should rest on D.Sutters shoulders for having Keenan on board in the first place.
Is it Darryl Sutter's fault that his younger brother kept forcing Iginla and Jokinen to work together? Darryl's fault the power play strategy was shoot from far out even if there wasn't anybody there for the rebound? Under Brent, the Flames' offense was predictable. Carry down the side, dump it in, repeat because the opposing team read that play and cleared it immediately. The system was too strict and therefore stifled creativity, Keenan went a little too far in the opposite direction by establishing no system but it was closer to what the team needed, as evidenced by the total breakdown this team had after the halfway point.

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08-10-2010, 02:19 PM
  #98
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That's a stretch, it's a rule in the NHL, every team that improves has to displace another team that didn't. If you can't keep up either as coach or GM, then you shouldn't be playing.



I like to think this is a team game, you can't point to Kipprusoff's stats in any season past 05/06 and see it as a reflection of the team's performance.



Then why is it that Sutter got a good start out of the roster? 12 wins 1 OTL in their first 20 games, that would mean a 100+ point season right? This team didn't start to fall apart until the second half of the season, when the offense started to fall apart. In this NHL all the teams that make the playoffs seem to be at least average in both offense and defense. The Flames failed to have an average defense under Keenan and he wasn't a great coach because of that but under Sutter the Flames were the worst offensively in the league. Neither coach did a great job because neither managed to establish a balanced approach to the game. Keenan just managed better because he got more out of this team than Brent did.



Is it Darryl Sutter's fault that his younger brother kept forcing Iginla and Jokinen to work together? Darryl's fault the power play strategy was shoot from far out even if there wasn't anybody there for the rebound? Under Brent, the Flames' offense was predictable. Carry down the side, dump it in, repeat because the opposing team read that play and cleared it immediately. The system was too strict and therefore stifled creativity, Keenan went a little too far in the opposite direction by establishing no system but it was closer to what the team needed, as evidenced by the total breakdown this team had after the halfway point.
Your bring up some good points, and to stray much more into this argument would mean predicting the future. We'll have to see how B.Sutter assembles the team this coming year. I think that until a team learns how to respond to a coach's influence, it's hard to let creativity blossom.

Regarding the part I bolded...Regardless of the team's record at that time they still looked disconnected and irresponsible. I believe the reason for the impressive start is that most games are sloppy in the first 20 to begin with. With well adjusted clubs you'll see a sginificant improvment through the first 20 and I never saw a difference in that time span. Eventually teams outperformed them and the gap only increased more beyond the first 20.

All around Sutter is a task manager and it seemed like most of the players turned their noses up at him when asked to put in the extra effort. The players became lazy and irritated that they were asked to do more and that attitude was clearly evident in last seasons performance. Guys like Iginla and jokinen need to learn how to react to an offensive opportunity and transition that in there favour in a split second. No player (except for Bourque) showed that quality last year.

So hopefully there is a serious improvment this year. I will give B.Sutter the benifit of the doubt for one more campaign before throwing him under the bus. He did great things in NJ and eventhough we play in the West he should be able to replicate his 2nd year success from his days with the devils.

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08-10-2010, 02:26 PM
  #99
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[QUOTE=Stanford and Sons;27321698]
I like to think this is a team game, you can't point to Kipprusoff's stats in any season past 05/06 and see it as a reflection of the team's performance.
[QUOTE]

It's easy to say hockey is a team game. But bottomline kipper had his worst outings under Keenan.


Last edited by The Gnome: 08-10-2010 at 02:38 PM.
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08-10-2010, 02:34 PM
  #100
flames123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saillias View Post
After last season's disaster, Keenan doesn't look so bad. His teams could score goals and at least make the playoffs. Don't forget Kipper was a below-average goalie for those 2 seasons as well. The fact that the team bombed so hard but Kipper actually had a great season puts Brent on the spot imo.
Kipper was a "below average goalie" because Keenan made him one.

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