HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Ray Bourque vs Nik Lidstrom all time

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-31-2010, 02:07 PM
  #301
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gibson Cup View Post
Here is the 1st post I made to you on the videos. Note "your supporters".
Well since I have always said I consider Lidstrom with the edge defensively over Bourque, you can hardly call me a Bourque supporter on that now can you?

So I'll accept that apology now, thanks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gibson Cup View Post
But a strong argument can be made Lidstrom was the best player in all 4 SC wins.
Again, that's the difference, you can argue he "might" of been out of half a dozen candidates .
With Bourque, there is no argument, he was the best player on most of those teams because he had no where near the supporting cast Lidstrom did.

Rhiessan71 is offline  
Old
07-31-2010, 02:10 PM
  #302
CC Chiefs*
 
CC Chiefs*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 15,078
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Well since I have always said I consider Lidstrom with the edge defensively over Bourque, you can hardly call me a Bourque supporter on that now can you?

So I'll accept that apology now, thanks.
Yes, but I didn't callout you individually like you claimed from the start.

Now it sure would be nice for the Umnberger poster to come back and address the Bourque videos. But it's not likely.

CC Chiefs* is offline  
Old
07-31-2010, 02:11 PM
  #303
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,283
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Let's get this thread back on track - examining birth certificates is not part of the agenda.

The overlooked element in the Bourque / Lidstrom discussion is coaching.

Nicklas Lidstrom had a distinct advantage for the vast majority of his career in Detrroit because he was supported with elite coaching first by Scotty Bowman, then by Mike Babcock. Scotty Bowman in particular had the ability to recognize strengths and weaknesses.He would overcome weaknesses by modifying team styles or compensating with linemates or thru defensive pairings. Prime example being Guy Lafleur who was not all that interested in the defensive side of things. Bowman managed to work around this trait by matching Lafleur with Jacques Lemaire who took care of the defensive side of things. Lafleur and the team flourished as a result. Bowman did the same with Lidstrom - evidenced the 1997 playoffs against Philadelphia. Lidstrom had superior quickness compared to Lindros with the sense to avoid a physical confrontation with a frustrated Lindros. Lindros was deflated as a result.

Conversely Ray Bourque with the Bruins had to make do with weak coaching. Seriously doubt that any of his coaches with the Bruins pre 1995 would make the top 100 of coaches.Going into a playoff series against the Bruins more often than not was a question of preparation and in game adjustments. Significant edge to the opponent.
Yet, Lidström still won Norris with Dave Lewis as coach and I don't see what Bowman did to improve Lidströms game? Matching him with the ultra physical Larry Murphy?

As opposed to his GM skills, Milbury was actually a pretty good coach for the Bruins. Cheevers and O'Reilly wasn't exactly bad either. None of them are in Bowman class though.

jkrx is offline  
Old
07-31-2010, 02:29 PM
  #304
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Yet, Lidström still won Norris with Dave Lewis as coach and I don't see what Bowman did to improve Lidströms game? Matching him with the ultra physical Larry Murphy?

As opposed to his GM skills, Milbury was actually a pretty good coach for the Bruins. Cheevers and O'Reilly wasn't exactly bad either. None of them are in Bowman class though.

Look, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to look up the rosters of Lidstrom's teams and Bourque's teams and come to the factual conclusion that Lidstrom had the benefit of vastly superior supporting casts over the years.

Again, the only time Bourque played on a team that was the caliber of the the teams Lidstrom played on was with the Av's.

Trying to blame Bourque for not winning any Cups with the Bruins is no different than trying to blame Yzerman for not winning any in the 80's and early 90's.

Rhiessan71 is offline  
Old
07-31-2010, 02:43 PM
  #305
ushvinder
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Look, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to look up the rosters of Lidstrom's teams and Bourque's teams and come to the factual conclusion that Lidstrom had the benefit of vastly superior supporting casts over the years.

Again, the only time Bourque played on a team that was the caliber of the the teams Lidstrom played on was with the Av's.

Trying to blame Bourque for not winning any Cups with the Bruins is no different than trying to blame Yzerman for not winning any in the 80's and early 90's.
You dont consider rick middleton, pete peeters, barry pederson and brad park as quality teammates. These guys were all all stars at the time, the bruins were winning a bunch of games in the regular season, yet they would get eliminated in the playoffs.

I would also say 1992-1996 version of adam oates is better than an over the hill yzerman. Andy Mogg was a better goalie than osgood. By the time Lidstrom was in his prime, yzerman and fedorov were no longer elite players. Bourque played with cam neely, adam oates, rick middleton, pete peeters and andy moog when they were superstars.

ushvinder is offline  
Old
07-31-2010, 02:48 PM
  #306
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,506
vCash: 500
Bourque Videos

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gibson Cup View Post
Yes, but I didn't callout you individually like you claimed from the start.

Now it sure would be nice for the Umnberger poster to come back and address the Bourque videos. But it's not likely.
Both goals - Goring and the May Day, Ray Bourque is trying to cover for the mistakes made by his defensive partner. In both instances Bourque defensive partner is caught too far outside - blatant in the May Day goal, giving up the middle and in both instances the partner is too high - a defensive pairing should always be on a line parallel to the lines dividing the zones. If the pairing is on a diagonal they are poorly positioned. Caused by the higher man getting caught up ice.

I'll throw in a video of Mario Lemieux first goal on his first NHL shift:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrc7OlT6r9w

The great will beat the great. Henri Richard picked Bobby Orr's pocket in 1971 leading to one of the biggest upsets in hockey history.

Canadiens1958 is offline  
Old
07-31-2010, 02:55 PM
  #307
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,506
vCash: 500
Coaching 101

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Yet, Lidström still won Norris with Dave Lewis as coach and I don't see what Bowman did to improve Lidströms game? Matching him with the ultra physical Larry Murphy?

As opposed to his GM skills, Milbury was actually a pretty good coach for the Bruins. Cheevers and O'Reilly wasn't exactly bad either. None of them are in Bowman class though.
Crafting the optimum style for the team offensively and defensively and using each player in roles where they were the most effective.

With the Red Wings Murphy was the ideal match for Lidstrom because they were so similar and had an understanding of what the other was doing in any given situation.

Canadiens1958 is offline  
Old
07-31-2010, 02:56 PM
  #308
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
You dont consider rick middleton, pete peeters, barry pederson and brad park as quality teammates. These guys were all all stars at the time, the bruins were winning a bunch of games in the regular season, yet they would get eliminated in the playoffs.
Sure they were and even with them, those Bruin teams stacked up against the Isles and Oilers of that time how exactly?
It's all well and good to list all the years in the 80's that the Bruins had a pretty good team and that works ok until you say...oh btw, you have to beat the 80-83 Isles and then the 84-90 Oilers to win a cup. No problem right

Quote:
I would also say 1992-1996 version of adam oates is better than an over the hill yzerman. Andy Mogg was a better goalie than osgood.
Ok so the Bruins had Oates, Bourque, Neely for a few years.

The Wings had Fedorov, Yzerman, Lidstrom, Shanahan, Chelios, Vernon, Hasek, Murphy, Chaison, Zetterberg, Dats, Coffey ect ect ect the list goes on and on and on and on.

Gimme a break already, obvious is obvious.

Lidstrom couldn't even win the Cup with the '96 Wings which was virtually an allstar team and then ask how come Bourque couldn't win a Cup with what he had.....really?

Oh and before I forget....Stevie Y had 137 points in 92/93, 82 points in just 58 games in 93/94 and then another 95 points in 95/96....over the hill my ass.
Oates prolly does get the edge for those years but it's by such a slight margin.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 07-31-2010 at 03:43 PM.
Rhiessan71 is offline  
Old
07-31-2010, 03:44 PM
  #309
Padan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 515
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
Lidstrom also has a significant edge in international play
Lidstrom has never been that great on the national team (save 2006 Olympics), which is the main reason why he's not as appreciated by Swedish media as Mats Sundin and Peter Forsberg are.

Padan is offline  
Old
07-31-2010, 03:55 PM
  #310
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,283
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padan View Post
Lidstrom has never been that great on the national team (save 2006 Olympics), which is the main reason why he's not as appreciated by Swedish media as Mats Sundin and Peter Forsberg are.
Well... that's not entirely true. He's good internationally on small rinks.

jkrx is offline  
Old
07-31-2010, 04:03 PM
  #311
Reds4Life
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Reds4Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The Czech Republic
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,518
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padan View Post
Lidstrom has never been that great on the national team (save 2006 Olympics), which is the main reason why he's not as appreciated by Swedish media as Mats Sundin and Peter Forsberg are.

Yes, because Sundin played a lot more games because he has not made playoffs every year like Lidstrom. Lidstrom still won both Olympic gold (and scored the gold winning goal) and World Championship anyways.

Reds4Life is offline  
Old
07-31-2010, 04:05 PM
  #312
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,283
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Look, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to look up the rosters of Lidstrom's teams and Bourque's teams and come to the factual conclusion that Lidstrom had the benefit of vastly superior supporting casts over the years.

Again, the only time Bourque played on a team that was the caliber of the the teams Lidstrom played on was with the Av's.

Trying to blame Bourque for not winning any Cups with the Bruins is no different than trying to blame Yzerman for not winning any in the 80's and early 90's.
I didn't blame anyone for anything. I was just responding to a reply that Lidström had a huge benefit from better coaching. Bowman might be strategic genious but he doesnt improve individual skill. He improves the team. If he improved individual skill he would have won the cup with the sabres. Lidström is great because Lidström is great same with Bourque.

Bowman doesnt inflate players stats either (well not star players) as he demands complete obidience to the system and do not as canadiens said "work around it" unless its the absolute last resort. Examples of this would be the trading of Coffey, Dino etc and ofcourse the Penguins players refusal to play under him.

jkrx is offline  
Old
07-31-2010, 07:01 PM
  #313
CC Chiefs*
 
CC Chiefs*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 15,078
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Sure they were and even with them, those Bruin teams stacked up against the Isles and Oilers of that time how exactly?
It's all well and good to list all the years in the 80's that the Bruins had a pretty good team and that works ok until you say...oh btw, you have to beat the 80-83 Isles and then the 84-90 Oilers to win a cup. No problem right



Ok so the Bruins had Oates, Bourque, Neely for a few years.

The Wings had Fedorov, Yzerman, Lidstrom, Shanahan, Chelios, Vernon, Hasek, Murphy, Chaison, Zetterberg, Dats, Coffey ect ect ect the list goes on and on and on and on.

Gimme a break already, obvious is obvious.

Lidstrom couldn't even win the Cup with the '96 Wings which was virtually an allstar team and then ask how come Bourque couldn't win a Cup with what he had.....really?

Oh and before I forget....Stevie Y had 137 points in 92/93, 82 points in just 58 games in 93/94 and then another 95 points in 95/96....over the hill my ass.
Oates prolly does get the edge for those years but it's by such a slight margin.
Your list is a little miss-leading. Chaisson and Vernon were traded for each other. Coffey and Shanahan were trade for each other. In different thread you talked about how slow and ineffective Murphy was and how he needed a partner, and now you list him as reason why the DRW did well.

CC Chiefs* is offline  
Old
07-31-2010, 07:05 PM
  #314
Doctor No
Mod Supervisor
Retired?
 
Doctor No's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 24,354
vCash: 500
We're done here. I'm not spending all weekend babysitting this thread, and it's been proven that there are too many folks in here who can't behave themselves.

More to the point, we're going in circles now.

Doctor No is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:55 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.